Grass Fed Beef

[quote]rainjack wrote:
ArcaneCocaine wrote:
I myself don’t really care if Beef is fed grain, would prefer it to eat as much grass as possible. However, grain is acceptable.

My problem is with feeding cows animal products.

Unfortunatly fixing this problem will cost a lot of money. Add in that most people are ignorant of the problem, therefore there is no need to fix it. Which means they are still making a decent profit.

I’m not sure why you have a problem with feeding cattle animal products. They are not fed at high levels, mainly because of palatability issues. They are supplements to the ration to balance the nitrition of the feed.

It’s not like they are throwing raw meat into the feed trough. All of the animal products are in powder form. If you saw a pile of bone meal on the ground - you (corporate “you”) would not be able to tell what it was without a label on it.

[/quote]

I don’t think some people understang the concept of the rumen. The bacteria in the stomach are going to break down animal products the same as if you feed urea and carbohydrates.

I don’t know about Bison/Buffalo. They are similar animals, but the niche with them has always been healthier food. So, I don’t know if there has ever been a huge incentive to feed them like we do beef.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
ArcaneCocaine wrote:
I myself don’t really care if Beef is fed grain, would prefer it to eat as much grass as possible. However, grain is acceptable.

My problem is with feeding cows animal products.

Unfortunatly fixing this problem will cost a lot of money. Add in that most people are ignorant of the problem, therefore there is no need to fix it. Which means they are still making a decent profit.

I’m not sure why you have a problem with feeding cattle animal products. They are not fed at high levels, mainly because of palatability issues. They are supplements to the ration to balance the nitrition of the feed.

It’s not like they are throwing raw meat into the feed trough. All of the animal products are in powder form. If you saw a pile of bone meal on the ground - you (corporate “you”) would not be able to tell what it was without a label on it.

[/quote]

How much is not high levels?

As for my problem it’s that a cow as far as I know has never killed another cow and devoured it. Therefore why feed cows cows? Especially when BSE testing is very suspect. Which of course means such feeding practices have the potential to infect otherwise health cows with BSE. Powdered form or not prions are extremely hard to kill.

That there is the crux of my problem. Believe me when I say I wish you were right about BSE. However, as I alluded to before I think the truth lies somewhere inbetween the hippy nuts and the FDA’s assurances of safety.

I’m also curious as to what you think of the BSE testing as it stands today? Thanks.

[quote]ArcaneCocaine wrote:
rainjack wrote:
ArcaneCocaine wrote:
I myself don’t really care if Beef is fed grain, would prefer it to eat as much grass as possible. However, grain is acceptable.

My problem is with feeding cows animal products.

Unfortunatly fixing this problem will cost a lot of money. Add in that most people are ignorant of the problem, therefore there is no need to fix it. Which means they are still making a decent profit.

I’m not sure why you have a problem with feeding cattle animal products. They are not fed at high levels, mainly because of palatability issues. They are supplements to the ration to balance the nitrition of the feed.

It’s not like they are throwing raw meat into the feed trough. All of the animal products are in powder form. If you saw a pile of bone meal on the ground - you (corporate “you”) would not be able to tell what it was without a label on it.

How much is not high levels?

As for my problem it’s that a cow as far as I know has never killed another cow and devoured it. Therefore why feed cows cows? Especially when BSE testing is very suspect. Which of course means such feeding practices have the potential to infect otherwise health cows with BSE. Powdered form or not prions are extremely hard to kill.

That there is the crux of my problem. Believe me when I say I wish you were right about BSE. However, as I alluded to before I think the truth lies somewhere inbetween the hippy nuts and the FDA’s assurances of safety.

I’m also curious as to what you think of the BSE testing as it stands today? Thanks.[/quote]

i like good food. this makes me a “hippy nut” ?

I think what is not being directly pointed out here is that the cattle industry has developed a breed of cattle that finish well on what is the industry’s normal practice. That is grain finished. The difference between making a profit and losing money can be as little as 100 pounds. Grain adds more carcass weight. My family raises cattle in Ohio. I bought my first whole steer from my uncle.

The first year I asked that it be raised antibiotic and steroid/hormone free. The mineral supplement it was fed was certified 100% all natural. I received 670 pounds. The next year I asked for it to be grass fed. I agreed to pay the average weight of the 100 head he finished on grain for my steer. The average weight that year was 630 pounds. My steer came in at 595 pounds. I must also note that my steer was raised until late May while the grain raised cattle were slaughtered at the end of March. This was to allow additional time to add to his weight and to finish on the spring pasture. It was a good pasture mix with a lot of red clover. The beef was a lot leaner and had a stronger taste. The ground beef was actually so lean it was hard to make hamburger patties without adding in an egg so it would hold together on the grill. The tenderness difference was not noticeable between the two. Another note would be that the loss to trimming was a little less. These were calves born on his farm so he had control over their feed from birth to slaughter.

I am driving up to Ohio from Virginia this year to get a half this year. Eating meat even from the butcher here just does not compare. So big coolers and dry ice from Krogers.

[quote]swivel wrote:
i like good food. this makes me a “hippy nut” ?[/quote]

Urr…I don’t know…I like good food too! I was more thinking of the pot smoking people in colour vans that only eat fish that’s made out of hemp… :wink:

What is your stance on how live stock is fed? Sorry the only thing I remember you posting is something about thieves. :wink: PM me if you want.

[quote]TCMbuna wrote:
I think what is not being directly pointed out here is that the cattle industry has developed a breed of cattle that finish well on what is the industry’s normal practice. That is grain finished. The difference between making a profit and losing money can be as little as 100 pounds. Grain adds more carcass weight. My family raises cattle in Ohio. I bought my first whole steer from my uncle.

The first year I asked that it be raised antibiotic and steroid/hormone free. The mineral supplement it was fed was certified 100% all natural. I received 670 pounds. The next year I asked for it to be grass fed. I agreed to pay the average weight of the 100 head he finished on grain for my steer. The average weight that year was 630 pounds. My steer came in at 595 pounds. I must also note that my steer was raised until late May while the grain raised cattle were slaughtered at the end of March. This was to allow additional time to add to his weight and to finish on the spring pasture. It was a good pasture mix with a lot of red clover. The beef was a lot leaner and had a stronger taste. The ground beef was actually so lean it was hard to make hamburger patties without adding in an egg so it would hold together on the grill. The tenderness difference was not noticeable between the two. Another note would be that the loss to trimming was a little less. These were calves born on his farm so he had control over their feed from birth to slaughter.

I am driving up to Ohio from Virginia this year to get a half this year. Eating meat even from the butcher here just does not compare. So big coolers and dry ice from Krogers.[/quote]

Interesting. Again I don’t really have a problem with grain as feed. Cows and or other animals as feed for cows I do have a problem with.

[quote]ArcaneCocaine wrote:
How much is not high levels?[/quote]

It depends on what is being fed. Bone meal is a calcium source, and is fed at around 5% of the ration - when it is used.

Renedered fat is fed for energy, and can make up 1-5% of the ration

Blood meal is a source of iron, and other minerals and is fed at way less than 1% of the total ration.

Now - mind you - I am not a ruminent nutritionist, so I know just enough about rations to get myself into trouble.

I just don’t see the problem. Hogs are fed other animals - fat, meat, everything in the slop. This has been done for centuries.

Cattle are fed specific offal from other animals that have been processed, and approved by the FDA. I know you don’t put much stock in the gov’t oversight in this arena - but it has been a safe practice for decades. It’s just been in the last 5-6 years that people have started paying attention to what cattle are fed.

(editorial note: it would be nice if people would pay as much attention to what they shove in their pie-holes - present company excluded, of course)

I think it is a horrible condition - BSE is bad stuff. I just think that it makes for a really cool story for the news folks to show “brainers” stumbling around a pen, and then telling people that it could be in our food chain. I won’t sit here and tell you that it does not exist - but I think it has been way over blown in an effort to sell newspapers.

Honestly - if it were affordable - I would like to see every anilmal slaughtered in an American packing house to be tested. I would like to shuit off the borders to Mexican cattle just like we have with the canadian cattle.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Honestly - if it were affordable - I would like to see every anilmal slaughtered in an American packing house to be tested. I would like to shuit off the borders to Mexican cattle just like we have with the canadian cattle.

[/quote]

Hey if we tested every cow then I’d have far less of a problem with feeding cows other animals. As I stated above my main problem with cows eating other animals especially untested cows is that it can spread BSE. Anyways, thanks for the response. I learnid sum stuf! :slight_smile:

[quote]rainjack wrote:
This paragraph proves that you have no idea about the business of commercial cattle production, or exactly what is in the pasture during the winter months in the vast majority of cattle producing areas.

If it was as easy as you say - everyone would have grass fed beef. It’s not.
[/quote]

Rainjack, I hate to disagree with you since you were always a staunch ally in the “Politics and World Issues” section, but I must. I would respond that your statements prove that you know nothing BUT commerical cattle production and are apparently unaware of the small-scale operations of pasture-raised cattle.

It is as easy as I say, except that somewhere along the line someone got the idea that you could sell the “same” product at a lower price by cramming the cows into feedlots and feeding them grain. It takes less land to support a herd of cow that are fenced in than it does to let them roam. When I can raise and slaughter many more cows and make those cows bigger through the use of hormones (and keep them alive in deplorable conditions through the use of antibiotics), then I can sell beef for less than the guy down the street still raising his cows on pasture. The unassuming consumer goes for the better bargain: $5 a pound for grain-fed non-pastured beef vs. $11 a pound for grass-fed pastured beef. You might recognize this concept as “craftsmanship.” Products built on an assembly line will always cost less than those built by hand. Arguably, those built by hand are of higher quality, but that higher quality comes at a price. So it is with beef grown on feedlots (your assembly line) vs. beef grown on pasture (the handmade variety).

I am paying a premium for the farmers who raise cattle but with a lower yield; smaller cows and fewer of them. In other words, high quality and low price are antagonistic. To most people, apparently yourself included, you’d rather pay less and convince yourself that the product is just as good, or perhaps, that there is no other way. You are wrong and I’ve seen as much with my own two eyes. For the record, I’m talking about small “mom-and-pop” farms (as you call them) here in Nebraska.

To conclude, everyone could eat pasture-raised, grass-fed beef if they were willing to pay the price. But so long as there are ignorant bargain shoppers there will always be a demand for the feedlots.

http://www.marunde-muscle.com/articles/grassfed.html

[quote]rainjack wrote:

I’m not sure why you have a problem with feeding cattle animal products. They are not fed at high levels, mainly because of palatability issues. They are supplements to the ration to balance the nitrition of the feed.

It’s not like they are throwing raw meat into the feed trough. All of the animal products are in powder form. If you saw a pile of bone meal on the ground - you (corporate “you”) would not be able to tell what it was without a label on it.

[/quote]

Would you eat a person in powdered form? What are you saying? That you are able to fool the cows? Or that by making it into a powder it isn’t as disgusting as a chunk of raw meat? Sort of like abortion is gross when it looks a lot like a baby but is okay when it is a little amorphous ball of cells?

If animal products are so necessary to keep the cows alive, what did wild bison eat to keep healthy? Just because cows WILL eat something, does not mean that they SHOULD eat something, particularly if our goal is promoting the maximum health of a cow. Humans WILL eat donuts all day, but should they?

You have an personal interest or bias in favor of large-scale cattle production, no?

[quote]eic wrote:
rainjack wrote:
This paragraph proves that you have no idea about the business of commercial cattle production, or exactly what is in the pasture during the winter months in the vast majority of cattle producing areas.

If it was as easy as you say - everyone would have grass fed beef. It’s not.

Rainjack, I hate to disagree with you since you were always a staunch ally in the “Politics and World Issues” section, but I must. I would respond that your statements prove that you know nothing BUT commerical cattle production and are apparently unaware of the small-scale operations of pasture-raised cattle.
[/quote]

Unless you are raising a registered herd for resale as breeding stock, or raising a family pet - all cattle are raised and slaughtered for commercial purposes. That means they are raised to make money.

I’ll take my experience in the business over someone that has had a conversation with someone that raises cattle for a living.

Pasture raised cattle in no way infers grass fed cattle. The two are not the same.

This is the problem I have with such labeling. The ignorant public sees a label and decides, based on the marketing alone, that product ‘A’ must be better than product ‘B’.

If you were to feed cattle exclusively a grass diet - especially a native grass diet - in the largest cattle producing states - you would have a pasture full of dead, or nearly starved to death cattle.

Hay is not a pasture grass. At least alfalfa isn’t. It is a legume.

I’m not going to get into an argument over this with you. I know what I know - and I know it very, very well. I am on favor of grass fed beef. I think it has superior flavor.

BUT - you cannot be 100% sure what you are getting from a side of beef, unless you fed it yourself - as there is no oversight on the use of marketing buzzwords.

Maybe Farmer Bob grass feeds his beef, and is honest about it. There are 200 more producers out there that are not. As long as the store can get you to buy the meat they label as grass fed - they have no incentive to give a shit if the cattle are truly grass fed or not. That has been my point through out this thread, and until there is more than anecdotal proof to the contrary - I will stand by my statements.

And the website you linked is an advertisement. Sorry - but advertisements aren’t exactly what I would call proof.

[quote]eic wrote:
Would you eat a person in powdered form? What are you saying? That you are able to fool the cows? Or that by making it into a powder it isn’t as disgusting as a chunk of raw meat? Sort of like abortion is gross when it looks a lot like a baby but is okay when it is a little amorphous ball of cells? [/quote]

Ignorance is a very dangerous thing. Your arguments are absurd, and make no point. Animal offal has been used in feeding animals for centuries. If you want to argue this with me - I suggest you learn about the subject first. Comparing it to abortions is just stupidity, and I won’t dignify such stupidity with an answer.

First off - show me where I ever said it was a necessity, then maybe you will have a valid argument. Putting words in my mouth and attacking me for saying them is another sign of you ignorance of the subject matter. This is not the political forums. Up till now it has been a very good debate. You are now fucking that up with your ignorant, emotional bullshit.

No - I don’t. I own no cattle. I am just telling you how things are done in the real world. My experience has been with large scale cattle operations - but that does not mean I am biased.

If one were to look at the content of your posts - it would be painfully obvious that you have a bias against the beef industry. One that is based on a complete ignorance of the subject matter, I might add.

Now if you want to continue attacking me without proof, then perhaps you should start your own thread. You are starting to muddy this one up with your postings.

i buy my beef in Morrison, Oklahoma…i know the ranchers, its a hobby for them…i get a side of beef, put it in the deep freeze, and eat it whenever i want…its about $1000 for 400 lbs.

The butcher calls you and asks you how you want it cut…the best part about it is, it tastes awesome…theres nothing like it. not grass fed but they eat whatever the ground grows, hormone free, corn finished, well marbeled…black angus

Rainjack,

I find it ironic that you accuse me of devaluing this thread when I did not make a single personal attack, yet your last two posts were laced with them.

As for “putting words in your mouth,” you have insinuated many times in this thread that cows need a source of protein to survive, the obvious inference being that offal is one such source and, in your opinion, a good one. Here is one example of such statement about the importance of protein from you:

“But even those that remain on grass are supplemented with either cotton seed meal, or soy bean meal because most grass has a very low protein content.”

I already quoted earlier your statements about feeding cows animal products to meet the protein requirement you alluded to numerous times.

As for my statement about abortion, I think you missed the point. The point is not to make this an emotional debate, far from it; the point is that I don’t undertand what the difference is between feeding cows chunks of meat and feeding them a powder of other cows. Earlier you said something like, “It’s not like they are throwing chunks of meat into the field. The animal products are ground into a flower that you wouldn’t recognize if not labeled.”

Again, so what? My point is that some would argue that abortion is not a big deal when the soon-to-be child is a tiny ball of cells; nearly everyone objects when it actually looks somewhat like a baby. You are saying there is no big deal when it is a powder, yet would agree that it would be gross if it were chunks of beef.

My assertion is that to many, both lines of thinking are flawed; very intelligent people could argue that the act is the same no matter what the form. One could say, and I’m not necessarily saying it, that aborting a ball of cells or a baby-like fetus are both wrong because they both stop a potential life from coming into existence. I would say that feeding a cow powdered animal parts or the whole parts in chunks are both unsettling. I take no position in the abortion debate with this analogy; I’m merely trying to illustrate a point. Surely you can understand that. Your knee-jerk reaction to the use of the word “abortion” is misplaced and unwarranted.

So, please explain why I should care whether a cow eats chunks of meat thrown into the field versus a ground up animal in powdered form? What is the difference? Keep in mind that certain religions forbid consumption of animals that eat other animals’ flesh (and I think God cares not for the distinction between powder or chunk form).

Finally, in so far as you’ve said that I have spoiled the good debate that was going on in this thread, you are similarly incorrect. All that was transpiring before I posted was lots of “Wow! Thanks Rainjack for teaching me something new” posts. I appear to be the only person that disagrees with you on this thread. Since then you’ve responded with personal attacks and claims that I’ve ruined the thread. Is that any way to step up to and maturely handle dissent, Rainjack? Is it that I’ve ruined the thread, or is it that I disagree with you? It can’t be that for you the distinction between a healthy debate and a worthless argument is simply because everyone agrees with you in the former.

I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree.

[quote]eic wrote:
“But even those that remain on grass are supplemented with either cotton seed meal, or soy bean meal because most grass has a very low protein content.”

I already quoted earlier your statements about feeding cows animal products to meet the protein requirement you alluded to numerous times.[/quote]

Those are all grain supplements - not animal by-products. I have never said, or implied that it is “necessary” to feed animal by-products. Do you know what soybean meal is? How about cotton seed meal? If you did - you would know how silly your assumptions are.

Once again - you prove your utter lack of knowledge by taking something I said about supplementation, and extrapolating it ut to imply that it holds true for the feeding of animal by products.

The only thing I have said in favor of feeding animal offal is that it has been done for centuries, and that personally - I don’t think it is inherrently evil - at least not on the order of eating dead babies.

[quote]eic wrote:
Finally, in so far as you’ve said that I have spoiled the good debate that was going on in this thread, you are similarly incorrect. All that was transpiring before I posted was lots of “Wow! Thanks Rainjack for teaching me something new” posts. I appear to be the only person that disagrees with you on this thread. Since then you’ve responded with personal attacks and claims that I’ve ruined the thread. Is that any way to step up to and maturely handle dissent, Rainjack? Is it that I’ve ruined the thread, or is it that I disagree with you? It can’t be that for you the distinction between a healthy debate and a worthless argument is simply because everyone agrees with you in the former.

I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree. [/quote]

Avoids Roids was doing a good job of disagreeing with me without putting words in my mouth, or making outrageous parallels to the eating of dead babies.

The problem with you is that you are totally ignorant of the subject matter. Maybe I am a bit of a snob - but if you don’t know what you are even talking about - how can a healthy debate ensue?

It’s not rocket science - but you do have to do a little bit of leg work. At the very least, you need to do more than you have.

I’m not sure how true this is, but I heard the new trend was pumping beef with CarbonDioxide (may be another gas) so the meat always has that nice red color. So no matter how long the beef has been on the store shelf it will always has that nice red color.

[quote]eic wrote:
[/quote]

Dude you capriciously toss an abortion m-80 in here, twice, and seriously don’t understand how that fucks things up ?

sorry man but your histrionics made you jump the gun and miss the point of the discussion -which is the huge economic incentive to feed cattle things other than pure grass. and, even more important, the lack of enforcement and dis-incentive that large size, medium size, and all but the tiniest operations, who are merely scrambling for a market-niche, have to actually care about wether you’re getting what’s advertised.

we aren’t talking philosophically here. we’re talking about the historical realities of an entrenched supply chain to which rj has first hand insight.