Grass Fed Beef

Nutrition
61

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Kill’Em All wrote:
ok i see where i went wrong.

but i now have to say that meat is a shady business.

i think animal proteins are losing their greatness. chicken im sure is just as bad even if its organic,
fish is contaminated,
and beef is unregulated despite label claims.

lets not mention the milk that most protein powders come from probably has alott of estrogen bi products in it as well.

The US has, by far, the safest meat supply in the world. I would not say that the meat is unregulated - only the labeling.

Think back to when the whole “fat-free” craze started. Did you know that, if they sold it in small enough packages, pure butter could be designated as fat-free?

The same goes with the whole “grass-fed beef”, or “free range chicken” thing today.

Until someone defines “grass-fed” you just don’t know what you are buying. [/quote]

Of course the absence of government regulation does not mean that we’re all being had. The government does not require citizens to be civil and decent to each other–it doesn’t even define those terms for us–and yet many if not most of us find a way to be kind to one another on our own.

Now, no one disputes that grain-fed beef will grow more quickly and are cheaper to raise. That is not the issue. The issue is that I believe some farmers have taken it upon themselves to raise cows on grass in pasture and not finish them on grain. I can’t say whether cows need soy or cottonseed to survive, but it is not too much of stretch for me to believe that they would be perfectly fine living in pasture as they would in the wild.

I buy grass-fed and grass-finished beef from Grasslandbeef.com and I believe that they adhere to honest dealing. Why? Because although grain-fed meat is more economical, they want to fill a niche for a commodity desired by a select few. Although there may not be concrete empirical methods to ensure that the meat has been finished on grass, I believe the anecdotal means of verifying this fact. If the beef makes me look and feel better, then I am getting what I want, right?

62

[quote]eic wrote:
Of course the absence of government regulation does not mean that we’re all being had. The government does not require citizens to be civil and decent to each other–it doesn’t even define those terms for us–and yet many if not most of us find a way to be kind to one another on our own.

Now, no one disputes that grain-fed beef will grow more quickly and are cheaper to raise. That is not the issue. The issue is that I believe some farmers have taken it upon themselves to raise cows on grass in pasture and not finish them on grain. I can’t say whether cows need soy or cottonseed to survive, but it is not too much of stretch for me to believe that they would be perfectly fine living in pasture as they would in the wild.

I buy grass-fed and grass-finished beef from Grasslandbeef.com and I believe that they adhere to honest dealing. Why? Because although grain-fed meat is more economical, they want to fill a niche for a commodity desired by a select few. Although there may not be concrete empirical methods to ensure that the meat has been finished on grass, I believe the anecdotal means of verifying this fact. If the beef makes me look and feel better, then I am getting what I want, right?
[/quote]

That was the most heartening dose of idealistic subjectivity I’ve heard in a while. I wish I could share your starry eyed optimism my friend.

63

[quote]eic wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Kill’Em All wrote:
ok i see where i went wrong.

but i now have to say that meat is a shady business.

i think animal proteins are losing their greatness. chicken im sure is just as bad even if its organic,
fish is contaminated,
and beef is unregulated despite label claims.

lets not mention the milk that most protein powders come from probably has alott of estrogen bi products in it as well.

The US has, by far, the safest meat supply in the world. I would not say that the meat is unregulated - only the labeling.

Think back to when the whole “fat-free” craze started. Did you know that, if they sold it in small enough packages, pure butter could be designated as fat-free?

The same goes with the whole “grass-fed beef”, or “free range chicken” thing today.

Until someone defines “grass-fed” you just don’t know what you are buying.

Of course the absence of government regulation does not mean that we’re all being had. The government does not require citizens to be civil and decent to each other–it doesn’t even define those terms for us–and yet many if not most of us find a way to be kind to one another on our own.

Now, no one disputes that grain-fed beef will grow more quickly and are cheaper to raise. That is not the issue. The issue is that I believe some farmers have taken it upon themselves to raise cows on grass in pasture and not finish them on grain. I can’t say whether cows need soy or cottonseed to survive, but it is not too much of stretch for me to believe that they would be perfectly fine living in pasture as they would in the wild.

I buy grass-fed and grass-finished beef from Grasslandbeef.com and I believe that they adhere to honest dealing. Why? Because although grain-fed meat is more economical, they want to fill a niche for a commodity desired by a select few. Although there may not be concrete empirical methods to ensure that the meat has been finished on grass, I believe the anecdotal means of verifying this fact. If the beef makes me look and feel better, then I am getting what I want, right?
[/quote]

I agree.
The grass fed beef I buy tastes so much better than grain fed.
Thats what matters to me.
They must be doing something right if it tastes better and makes me feel better.

64

[quote]Cthulhu wrote:

They must be doing something right if it tastes better and makes me feel better.[/quote]

yeah. as long as it makes you feel better they they must be doing something right.

65

You know, they say that thieves are the first people that think to lock their doors.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
That was the most heartening dose of idealistic subjectivity I’ve heard in a while. I wish I could share your starry eyed optimism my friend.[/quote]

66

[quote]rainjack wrote:
The US has, by far, the safest meat supply in the world. [/quote]

From what I’ve heard that was Japan by far. At least where Mad cow is concerned. The US had to put massive pressure on Japan just to accept American beef again.

67

[quote]ArcaneCocaine wrote:
rainjack wrote:
The US has, by far, the safest meat supply in the world.

From what I’ve heard that was Japan by far. At least where Mad cow is concerned. The US had to put massive pressure on Japan just to accept American beef again.[/quote]

We’ve had one documented case of Mad Cow in the US. Period. DO you have any idea how many millions of tons of beef are processed safely in the US each year? To use a basically non-existent disease to judge the safety of a country’s meat supply shows about how much you know about the subject.

The shut down of US beef to Japan is more political than anything else.

68

[quote]rainjack wrote:
ArcaneCocaine wrote:
rainjack wrote:
The US has, by far, the safest meat supply in the world.

From what I’ve heard that was Japan by far. At least where Mad cow is concerned. The US had to put massive pressure on Japan just to accept American beef again.

We’ve had one documented case of Mad Cow in the US. Period. DO you have any idea how many millions of tons of beef are processed safely in the US each year? To use a basically non-existent disease to judge the safety of a country’s meat supply shows about how much you know about the subject.

The shut down of US beef to Japan is more political than anything else.

[/quote]

No need to get snippy. From what I hear it’s more of a don’t ask don’t tell policy. Does the US still not feed it’s cows MBM(meat bone meal)? ie: animal products to a herbivore? Which of course makes them grow faster, which of course puts more money in their pockets.

Plus I’m pretty sure they would burry any infected cows rather than have an entire herd destroyed. Lose too much money that way.

And no I’m not a conspiracy theorist. I’m just of the mind that the north american beef industy could be cleaned up. Forsure there are countries far worse.

Here:

http://www.organicconsumers.org/madcow/Greger122403.cfm

69

[quote]ArcaneCocaine wrote:
rainjack wrote:
ArcaneCocaine wrote:
rainjack wrote:
The US has, by far, the safest meat supply in the world.

From what I’ve heard that was Japan by far. At least where Mad cow is concerned. The US had to put massive pressure on Japan just to accept American beef again.

We’ve had one documented case of Mad Cow in the US. Period. DO you have any idea how many millions of tons of beef are processed safely in the US each year? To use a basically non-existent disease to judge the safety of a country’s meat supply shows about how much you know about the subject.

The shut down of US beef to Japan is more political than anything else.

No need to get snippy. From what I hear it’s more of a don’t ask don’t tell policy. Does the US still not feed it’s cows MBM(meat bone meal)? ie: animal products to a herbivore? Which of course makes them grow faster, which of course puts more money in their pockets.

Plus I’m pretty sure they would burry any infected cows rather than have an entire herd destroyed. Lose too much money that way.

And no I’m not a conspiracy theorist. I’m just of the mind that the north american beef industy could be cleaned up. Forsure there are countries far worse.

Here:

http://www.organicconsumers.org/madcow/Greger122403.cfm

[/quote]

No doubt that things could be cleaned up. But wrt Mad Cow the beef industry is under a huge microscope. There is little to no wiggle room.

I still stand by my statement that the US has the safest supply of beef in the world. Japan has few producers and must import most of their meat. Just ask the Aussies.

The shutting down of beef imports/exports is strictly a political move. Japan uses it like a carrot on a stick with the US.

Besides - mad cow is one of the last things one should concern himself with in the persuit of safer meat. Not to diminish the seriousness of the disease, but no one has contracted the disease here in the US. No one ever will.

But to answer your question about bone meal. Yes it is still fed, I think the rule now is that you can’t use beef bone meal to feed beef. If you knew half the stuff that cattle are willing to put in their mouths and chew up - you would gag.

70

[quote]eic wrote:
You know, they say that thieves are the first people that think to lock their doors.

Tiribulus wrote:
That was the most heartening dose of idealistic subjectivity I’ve heard in a while. I wish I could share your starry eyed optimism my friend.

[/quote]

who would be second ? people who’ve been ripped off perhaps ?

71

[quote]rainjack wrote:
ArcaneCocaine wrote:
rainjack wrote:
ArcaneCocaine wrote:
rainjack wrote:
The US has, by far, the safest meat supply in the world.

From what I’ve heard that was Japan by far. At least where Mad cow is concerned. The US had to put massive pressure on Japan just to accept American beef again.

We’ve had one documented case of Mad Cow in the US. Period. DO you have any idea how many millions of tons of beef are processed safely in the US each year? To use a basically non-existent disease to judge the safety of a country’s meat supply shows about how much you know about the subject.

The shut down of US beef to Japan is more political than anything else.

No need to get snippy. From what I hear it’s more of a don’t ask don’t tell policy. Does the US still not feed it’s cows MBM(meat bone meal)? ie: animal products to a herbivore? Which of course makes them grow faster, which of course puts more money in their pockets.

Plus I’m pretty sure they would burry any infected cows rather than have an entire herd destroyed. Lose too much money that way.

And no I’m not a conspiracy theorist. I’m just of the mind that the north american beef industy could be cleaned up. Forsure there are countries far worse.

Here:

http://www.organicconsumers.org/madcow/Greger122403.cfm

No doubt that things could be cleaned up. But wrt Mad Cow the beef industry is under a huge microscope. There is little to no wiggle room.

I still stand by my statement that the US has the safest supply of beef in the world. Japan has few producers and must import most of their meat. Just ask the Aussies.

The shutting down of beef imports/exports is strictly a political move. Japan uses it like a carrot on a stick with the US.

Besides - mad cow is one of the last things one should concern himself with in the persuit of safer meat. Not to diminish the seriousness of the disease, but no one has contracted the disease here in the US. No one ever will.

But to answer your question about bone meal. Yes it is still fed, I think the rule now is that you can’t use beef bone meal to feed beef. If you knew half the stuff that cattle are willing to put in their mouths and chew up - you would gag. [/quote]

This going much better than I thought. I figured I’d be flamed to death for that last post. :wink:

Japan imports a lot of US beef.

It’s a pretty bold statement to say that no one will contact the disease. I think the whole problem is that it’s hard to track as generally symptoms show up years to decades later. Also depending on your ancestry you may or may not have some resistance to getting the disease. People of european decent are generally more resistant.

This is because of eating sheeps for generations in Europe. Sheeps have long had scrapie(mad cow like affliction) which over the centuries people must have adapted to. Still no guarantee.

Scrapie may even be the cause of madcow as some cow back in the day were fed sheep meat bone meal etc. And cows are still fed to other cows which keeps cycling the problem back into the food supply.

And as for what cows are fed and what they eat…well I think we should just feed them what they are suppose to eat; grass. That however isn’t as profitable. I myself would have no problem paying more for animals fed what they should be fed.

Thanks for giving the otherside of the arguement.

AC

More links: http://davelouthan.org/

(He’s a bit over the top but gives you something to think about. I’m sure the truth is somewhere in the middle.)

72

i talked to the butcher at whole foods today. He said, that their grass fed beef is raised entirely on grass there whole life with no grain? how can I find out if that is actually true?

73

[quote]Kill’Em All wrote:
i talked to the butcher at whole foods today. He said, that their grass fed beef is raised entirely on grass there whole life with no grain? how can I find out if that is actually true?[/quote]

why not put that ball in his court ? ask him how he knows that’s true or if he’s just parroting company talking points?
ask for the name of the farm it comes from. be nice about it. you have to buy stuff from him.

74

It is almost impossible for cattle to get the proper nutrition in the winter months on nothing but grass.

Most all grass dies in the winter, and lose a very large part their protein content. The producer will supplement with high protein cubes of some sort.

It’s not that the guy at the store is trying to scam you - it’s just that their is no real defininition for what grass fed means.

Ask him how he can be 100% sure that the grass fed cattle have never had any grain.

I would be willing to believe a small operation much much quicker than I would believe a corporation that told me their beef is 100% grass fed.

75

[quote]rainjack wrote:
It is almost impossible for cattle to get the proper nutrition in the winter months on nothing but grass.

Most all grass dies in the winter, and lose a very large part their protein content. The producer will supplement with high protein cubes of some sort.

It’s not that the guy at the store is trying to scam you - it’s just that their is no real defininition for what grass fed means.

Ask him how he can be 100% sure that the grass fed cattle have never had any grain.

I would be willing to believe a small operation much much quicker than I would believe a corporation that told me their beef is 100% grass fed.
[/quote]

What about hay? The farmer I buy my raw milk from told me that he feeds the cows hay in the winter when there is 6" of snow covering the grass. I think this is different from fencing the cows in feed lots where they wallow in their own shit and piss and are feed corn in troughs.

My point is that the emphasis on all grain vs. all grass is somewhat misplaced. The emphasis is on how the cows are treated and kept. If you want to cram 1,000 cows in a tiny area, you cannot let them roam in pasture and must feed them corn. But if you are committed to letting them roam in pasture, then there is no need to feed them corn as they can just eat the goddamn grass beneath their feet until such time as weather conditions make that impossible.

In other words, treating the cows well goes hand-in-hand with them eating grass as the main ingredient in their diet. Does that mean that the cows I get meat and milk from have never eaten a single morsel of anything other than grass? No, but that is not the point.

I should add also that I have more confidence in the seller of my milk, since I know the farmer personally and have a good relationship with him and his family.

76

The health food store is not selling “well treated” beef. They are selling 100% grain fed beef.

Nutritional requirements for producing milk are different than the nutritional requirements for making a tasty steak.

Cattle are treated far worse in the dairies than they are in the feedlots. All commercial dairies that I have ever seen use the same confinement facilities as a feedlot - only difference is that the dairies have to handle the cattle far far more frequently.

77

[quote]eic wrote:
My point is that the emphasis on all grain vs. all grass is somewhat misplaced. The emphasis is on how the cows are treated and kept. If you want to cram 1,000 cows in a tiny area, you cannot let them roam in pasture and must feed them corn. But if you are committed to letting them roam in pasture, then there is no need to feed them corn as they can just eat the goddamn grass beneath their feet until such time as weather conditions make that impossible.
[/quote]

This paragraph proves that you have no idea about the business of commercial cattle production, or exactly what is in the pasture during the winter months in the vast majority of cattle producing areas.

If it was as easy as you say - everyone would have grass fed beef. It’s not.

78

I myself don’t really care if Beef is fed grain, would prefer it to eat as much grass as possible. However, grain is acceptable.

My problem is with feeding cows animal products.

Unfortunatly fixing this problem will cost a lot of money. Add in that most people are ignorant of the problem, therefore there is no need to fix it. Which means they are still making a decent profit.

79

[quote]ArcaneCocaine wrote:
I myself don’t really care if Beef is fed grain, would prefer it to eat as much grass as possible. However, grain is acceptable.

My problem is with feeding cows animal products.

Unfortunatly fixing this problem will cost a lot of money. Add in that most people are ignorant of the problem, therefore there is no need to fix it. Which means they are still making a decent profit.[/quote]

I’m not sure why you have a problem with feeding cattle animal products. They are not fed at high levels, mainly because of palatability issues. They are supplements to the ration to balance the nitrition of the feed.

It’s not like they are throwing raw meat into the feed trough. All of the animal products are in powder form. If you saw a pile of bone meal on the ground - you (corporate “you”) would not be able to tell what it was without a label on it.

80

Thanks for all the insights. Would you say that the points you have made also hold true for bison/buffalo?