Come on now Push you know that Christianity has nothing to do with the founders of our nation. Well…except for the following people:
Declaration of Independance
Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation
Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
George Read Delaware Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
William Floyd New York Presbyterian
Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian
The Constitution
Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation
Daniel Carroll Maryland Catholic
Thomas Fitzsimons Pennsylvania Catholic
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
Nathaniel Gorham Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Langdon New Hampshire Congregationalist
Nicholas Gilman New Hampshire Congregationalist
Abraham Baldwin Georgia Congregationalist; Episcopalian
William Samuel Johnson Connecticut Episcopalian; Presbyterian
James Madison Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Read Delaware Episcopalian
Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer Maryland Episcopalian
David Brearly New Jersey Episcopalian
Richard Dobbs Spaight, Sr. North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Gouverneur Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney South Carolina Episcopalian
Charles Pinckney South Carolina Episcopalian
Pierce Butler South Carolina Episcopalian
George Washington Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
William Blount North Carolina Episcopalian; Presbyterian
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyteran
Rufus King Massachusetts Episcopalian; Congregationalist
Jacob Broom Delaware Lutheran
William Few Georgia Methodist
Richard Bassett Delaware Methodist
Gunning Bedford Jr. Delaware Presbyterian
James McHenry Maryland Presbyterian
William Livingston New Jersey Presbyterian
William Paterson New Jersey Presbyterian
Hugh Williamson North Carolina Presbyterian
Jared Ingersoll Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Alexander Hamilton New York Huguenot; Presbyterian; Episcopalian
Jonathan Dayton New Jersey Presbyterian; Episcopalian
John Blair Virginia Presbyterian; Episcopalian
John Dickinson Delaware Quaker; Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker; Episcopalian
Thomas Mifflin Pennsylvania Quaker; Lutheran
Name of Non-Signing Delegate State Religious Affiliation
Oliver Ellsworth Connecticut Congregationalist
Caleb Strong Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Lansing, Jr. New York Dutch Reformed
Robert Yates New York Dutch Reformed
William Houstoun Georgia Episcopalian
William Leigh Pierce Georgia Episcopalian
Luther Martin Maryland Episcopalian
John F. Mercer Maryland Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
George Mason Virginia Episcopalian
Edmund J. Randolph Virginia Episcopalian
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
James McClurg Virginia Presbyterian
William C. Houston New Jersey Presbyterian
William R. Davie North Carolina Presbyterian
Alexander Martin North Carolina Presbyterian
Really, some of these atheists can only be described as having very large balls to assert any such nonsense as forlife has been handing us. And it’s time that we Christians start pushing back with the truth!
If the “Tiribulus/Pat/Brother Chris” threads have taught us anything…it’s that “Christianity” is far for being a Unified entity.
I’m sure that I will be corrected (and that’s okay)…but I would venture to guess that most of the founders were of some Protestant sect; they certainly were almost exclusively White, Northern Europeans; and in many ways they were much more “connected” religiously than the moderm Nation that now exist of 250 plus million people from all kinds of backgrounds.
So I side with smh23 on this one. While I see the value of “moral” teachings; I fail to believe that any of you would want a Nation that even if not completely so…it “leaned” toward a Theocracy of any kind.
What Sect? Why not make the Pope the spiritual leader of the Nation? Why not open all Governmental meetings with a Pentecostal, tongue-speaking, Hell-Raising revival?
I simply don’t think that any of you TRULY want to go there.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
The First Amendment is based on the idea that Congress cannot pass legislation that establishes a national denomination.[/quote]
I’m glad we agree on this point. Therefore, the government cannot favor Christianity over other faiths.
You simply don’t know your history and I simply don’t have the ambition to revisit this subject and school you and your buds again.
[/quote]
Not everything is as simple as you wish it to be. I said it that their positions were complex and ambiguous (as is to be expected in history). You and I can go back and forth quoting Jefferson and Adams…when I post, they will side with me, and when you post, they’ll side with you. That shouldn’t be too hard for you to understand.
Since it’s you that I’m talking to here, though, I’ll be once again painfully clear: I’m not arguing that they were atheists, or that they all wanted religion specifically banned from public governance. I’m making the uncontroversial assertion that their various positions on the issue were complex, even contradictory, and that the question itself is consequently shrouded in ambiguity. If you want a theocracy in America, then you’re a fucking idiot. But that’s your call. Just try not to pave over reality in favor of a simpleton’s Disney-land version of history.
I’m glad we agree on this point. Therefore, the government cannot favor Christianity over other faiths.[/quote]
Someone should alert Congress then, since they’ve been opening every session with a prayer since anyone can remember.
In fact, here’s a text of the opening prayer for June 13. From the House Chaplain:
[i]Eternal God, we give you thanks for giving us another day.
As the House gathers at the end of a difficult week, grant the Members peace and calm, that they might attend to the issues and policies that they continue to consider.
May they honor the values and traditions that we share as a People. Help them be mindful of the gifts of peace, justice, fairness and respect that are our common heritage.
As it is so often easy to focus on what separates one from another, may their understanding that you have created us as one People, and remind them of the values that bind us all together as Americans in the human family.
May all that is done this day in the People’s House be for your greater honor and glory.[/i]
To me, Bolt…that’s a nice, “safe”, non-controversial/non-Sectarian prayer of a Country that realizes the dangers inherent in Theocracies…or even a “lean” in that direction.
Moreover, the Founders had no interest in this being a “secular” nation. If they had, when they ratified the Articles, and then the Constitution, they would have used the supreme law of the land to dismantle state law and policy that reflected religious beliefs - in some cases, state-sponsored churches. For example, in Massachusetts, every man was required to be a member of a church as a matter of law until the 1830s. The Founders left the state apparatus supporting religion untouched. That ain’t the work of hard-core “secularists”.
The Founders were well-aware of the dangers of denominational strife in the infant nation (which already had sectional strife). The Founders had no interest in allowing a church a voice in national affairs and wanted a certain level of neutrality among faiths.
That desire for some level of neutrality does not - and never has - equated to a preference for “secularism”. “Secularist” governments, after all, do not employ Congressional chaplains.
Like Push and Zeb said, modern “secularists” are welcome to push for secularism as a new idea, but there is no appeal to any historical basis for it.
“…The Founders were well-aware of the dangers of denominational strife in the infant nation (which already had sectional strife). The Founders had no interest in allowing a church a voice in national affairs and wanted a certain level of neutrality among faiths…”
To me, Bolt…that’s a nice, “safe”, non-controversial/non-Sectarian prayer of a Country that realizes the dangers inherent in Theocracies. [/quote]
I think it’s a lot of things, but most importantly, it’s airtight evidence we don’t live in a nation organized on “secular” principles and that, yes, we actually do give Christianity more airtime than other religions even as we make room for and welcome other faiths.
If Forlife is right (and he’s not), even this plain-vanilla Christian prayer would be unconstitutional and has been since the ratification of the First Amendment. Not true.
Maybe I’m splitting words, Bolt…but to me, there is a difference between a “Christian Nation” and a “Chrisitian influenced Nation”…[/quote]
I see your point - so what do you think of Congress opening with a prayer and employing chaplains? We’ve always had them, and our tax dollars pay for them. Keep them? Or get rid of them?
modern (or “hard-core”) secularism is not an american idea. It’s a french one, and even in my country it didn’t became a law until 1905.
that being said, i wonder how many of the founding fathers were free masons. “Eternal God” doesn’t mean “Christian God”. It can mean “Great Architect of the Universe” too.
Maybe I’m splitting words, Bolt…but to me, there is a difference between a “Christian Nation” and a “Chrisitian influenced Nation”…[/quote]
I see your point - so what do you think of Congress opening with a prayer and employing chaplains? We’ve always had them, and our tax dollars pay for them. Keep them? Or get rid of them?[/quote]
AS THEY CURRENTLY STAND, and with their current “non-Sectarian” approach, I say keep them.
However…if the “pagentry” of certain Faiths begins to become instituted…or the hell-raising, passing-out, sweet-Jesus, tougue speaking of others becomes expected…then I begin to have problems.
There aren’t many things that I think our Government does very well, Bolt…but I think that historically it has been good at keeping religion “in check”.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
If the “Tiribulus/Pat/Brother Chris” threads have taught us anything…it’s that “Christianity” is far for being a Unified entity.
I’m sure that I will be corrected (and that’s okay)…but I would venture to guess that most of the founders were of some Protestant sect; they certainly were almost exclusively White, Northern Europeans; and in many ways they were much more “connected” religiously than the moderm Nation that now exist of 250 plus million people from all kinds of backgrounds.
So I side with smh23 on this one. While I see the value of “moral” teachings; I fail to believe that any of you would want a Nation that even if not completely so…it “leaned” toward a Theocracy of any kind.
What Sect? Why not make the Pope the spiritual leader of the Nation? Why not open all Governmental meetings with a Pentecostal, tongue-speaking, Hell-Raising revival?
I simply don’t think that any of you TRULY want to go there.
Mufasa
[/quote]
No I don’t want to go there. But on the same token I don’t like the ACLU telling schools that kids can’t have a Christian club on campus. And things like this happen all the time.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Maybe I’m splitting words, Bolt…but to me, there is a difference between a “Christian Nation” and a “Chrisitian influenced Nation”…
[/quote]
Maybe I’m splitting words, Bolt…but to me, there is a difference between a “Christian Nation” and a “Chrisitian influenced Nation”…[/quote]
I see your point - so what do you think of Congress opening with a prayer and employing chaplains? We’ve always had them, and our tax dollars pay for them. Keep them? Or get rid of them?[/quote]
AS THEY CURRENTLY STAND, and with their current “non-Sectarian” approach, I say keep them.
However…if the “pagentry” of certain Faiths begins to become instituted…or the hell-raising, passing-out, sweet-Jesus, tougue speaking of others becomes expected…then I begin to have problems.
There aren’t many things that I think our Government does very well, Bolt…but I think that historically it has been good at keeping religion “in check”.
Mufasa[/quote]
I think the establishment clause of the First Amendment restricts any involvement of religion by government, since it says specifically that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”. Not just a particular religion, but any sanctioning of religion in general, violates the establishment cause in my opinion.
That said, I’m not particularly offended by it, so long as a particular faith isn’t favored over others. I think Congress has done a pretty good job in that regard, allowing Jews, Christians, Hindus, etc. to offer prayers.