Gov. Rick Perry

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]pushharder wrote:
For the record, although Jefferson is an admirable man and indeed one of our greatest Founding Fathers he had little to nothing to do with the drafting or ratifying of the Constitution. In fact, at the time he was in France chasing skirts and pursuing his Francophile passions.

Moral of the story is one would do well not to cite Jefferson when it comes to the Constitution and the original intent thereof.[/quote]

I cited Jefferson because we were specifically discussing the separation between church and state, and he is the author of that statement. He wasn’t a Christian, and he didn’t believe the government should be Christian.

62

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

…The principle of separating church from state…

[/quote]

Woefully pathetic ignorance.
[/quote]

Separation between church and state was intended to protect religion from the influence of government. In order for that to work, government must be free of religion. A Christian government will favor Christian churches, while marginalizing other faiths. We are a democracy, not a theocracy.

The U.S. was never designed to be a Christian nation. Thomas Jefferson, principle author of the Declaration of Independence and source of the “separation between church and state” statement, was decidedly NOT a Christian, and he never intended for the government to be a Christian government.

[quote]Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from
the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed
by inserting “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from
the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the
insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant
to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the
Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every
denomination.[/quote]

[quote]History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden
people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest
grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders
will always avail themselves for their own purposes.[/quote]

FL, you do not know your history. You are indeed ignorant. You should spend more time studying and less time posting on TN about matters like this.

You are so ignorant you don’t even know that you’re own country is not a democracy as you have stated but rather a constitutional republic.

Like many other Americans you have been spoonfed the idea that our “democracy” is constitutionally designed to keep religion out of the government sphere and that my ignorant friend is patently false. You are a foolish dog to be chasing that rabbit. Take a break from your yapping and do some research.[/quote]

How about dropping the ad hominems, and addressing my point?
[/quote]

I guess you missed it again. The ad hominems are there, from various directions, because you don’t have a point, and you fail to see that.

64

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
For the record, although Jefferson is an admirable man and indeed one of our greatest Founding Fathers he had little to nothing to do with the drafting or ratifying of the Constitution. In fact, at the time he was in France chasing skirts and pursuing his Francophile passions.

Moral of the story is one would do well not to cite Jefferson when it comes to the Constitution and the original intent thereof.[/quote]

I cited Jefferson because we were specifically discussing the separation between church and state, and he is the author of that statement. He wasn’t a Christian, and he didn’t believe the government should be Christian.[/quote]

The statement, “He didn’t believe the government should be Christian” is both poorly worded and incorrect. In spite of his apathy towards practicing Christianity Jefferson himself actually supported the use of government money in supporting religion. Look it up.

By the way, Jefferson’s “wall of separation” is THE only reference you will find when it comes to the subject of alleged antipathy by ANY founder towards the mixing of religion and politics. And like Zeb has already mentioned that statement has been grossly distorted over the last two centuries.

When it comes to this subject you are like a man holding an anvil and trying to tread water, amigo. Go back to the gay threads, you can’t compete here.[/quote]

He doesn’t do very well in the gay threads either.

65

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
For the record, although Jefferson is an admirable man and indeed one of our greatest Founding Fathers he had little to nothing to do with the drafting or ratifying of the Constitution. In fact, at the time he was in France chasing skirts and pursuing his Francophile passions.

Moral of the story is one would do well not to cite Jefferson when it comes to the Constitution and the original intent thereof.[/quote]

I cited Jefferson because we were specifically discussing the separation between church and state, and he is the author of that statement. He wasn’t a Christian, and he didn’t believe the government should be Christian.[/quote]

The statement, “He didn’t believe the government should be Christian” is both poorly worded and incorrect. In spite of his apathy towards practicing Christianity Jefferson himself actually supported the use of government money in supporting religion. Look it up.

By the way, Jefferson’s “wall of separation” is THE only reference you will find when it comes to the subject of alleged antipathy by ANY founder towards the mixing of religion and politics. And like Zeb has already mentioned that statement has been grossly distorted over the last two centuries.

When it comes to this subject you are like a man holding an anvil and trying to tread water, amigo. Go back to the gay threads, you can’t compete here.[/quote]

How does your second sentence follow from the first? Are you claiming Jefferson considered the country to be a Christian nation, or that he supported more funding for Christians than for other religions?

My point, again, is that branding a government with a specific religion AXIOMATICALLY DISSOLVES THE WALL BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE, BY OFFERING PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT BY THE GOVERNMENT TO MEMBERS OF THAT RELIGION.

Jefferson never considered the nation to be Christian, and he never supported preferential funding for Christians over other religions.

If you want to keep the wall intact, you CANNOT favor one religion over others at the government level.

66

Regardless of the ambiguous positions taken up by the various Founders, does anyone actually think that increasing the religiosity of the government, or that its endorsing of a particular belief, is somehow desirable? What if one day there are enough Muslim voters in the country to throw Islam in there as a power player too?

No thanks. I’ll take my government secular. Believe what you want, but keep it away from me.

73

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

…No thanks. I’ll take my government secular. Believe what you want, but keep it away from me.

[/quote]

Nothing wrong with you holding this position. You’re certainly entitled to your opinion. Just don’t try and back it up with the philosophies of the Founders because you will fail miserably as you show that you flunked Faith of Our Fathers 101.

By the way, just as you are entitled to your opinion those that feel differently are entitled to theirs. Right, Kemo Sabe?
[/quote]

That’s what I said: to each his own. Just keep it to his own. You’re entitled to believe all that drivel and I’m entitled to not to. Those two tides shouldn’t meet in government–we have enough problems.

And for the record: you can argue by assertion all you’d like. And you can play Glenn Beck and pretend that each of the Founders was a Churchgoing zealot. But their beliefs were complex, and anything but monolithic. And a good deal of writing directly attributable to them lends credence to the notion that they did not intend for the United States to be a nation explicitly founded upon one creed. Some of them–Jefferson comes instantly to mind–would hardly even be considered Christian by modern standards.

74

So long as Perry stays out of the weeds on religion and keeps God generic (without creed), unifying and lofty…like George Washington’s writing that Tirib posted earlier, I think he’ll be OK. Then, he’s only mostly offending one group – the atheists. And who cares? They’re already offended.

The moment he gets into anything overtly Christian, like Jesus and any ‘neediness’ for salvation, he risks becoming irrelevant as far as POTUS or VP is concerned. I can’t think of anything more un-presidential than a crying evangelical begging for forgiveness and salvation. That’s why I’m still concerned about this prayer meeting, but if he remains confident (presidential), and not desperate (weak and pathetic)…he MIGHT get through it and on to the much anticipated campaign.

Confidently accepting and affirming of Divine Providence, on the other hand, is very cool for POTUS, IMO.

75

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
For the record, although Jefferson is an admirable man and indeed one of our greatest Founding Fathers he had little to nothing to do with the drafting or ratifying of the Constitution. In fact, at the time he was in France chasing skirts and pursuing his Francophile passions.

Moral of the story is one would do well not to cite Jefferson when it comes to the Constitution and the original intent thereof.[/quote]

I cited Jefferson because we were specifically discussing the separation between church and state, and he is the author of that statement. He wasn’t a Christian, and he didn’t believe the government should be Christian.[/quote]

The statement, “He didn’t believe the government should be Christian” is both poorly worded and incorrect. In spite of his apathy towards practicing Christianity Jefferson himself actually supported the use of government money in supporting religion. Look it up.

By the way, Jefferson’s “wall of separation” is THE only reference you will find when it comes to the subject of alleged antipathy by ANY founder towards the mixing of religion and politics. And like Zeb has already mentioned that statement has been grossly distorted over the last two centuries.

When it comes to this subject you are like a man holding an anvil and trying to tread water, amigo. Go back to the gay threads, you can’t compete here.[/quote]

How does your second sentence follow from the first? Are you claiming Jefferson considered the country to be a Christian nation, or that he supported more funding for Christians than for other religions?

My point, again, is that branding a government with a specific religion AXIOMATICALLY DISSOLVES THE WALL BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE, BY OFFERING PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT BY THE GOVERNMENT TO MEMBERS OF THAT RELIGION.

Jefferson never considered the nation to be Christian, and he never supported preferential funding for Christians over other religions.

If you want to keep the wall intact, you CANNOT favor one religion over others at the government level.[/quote]

Jefferson was the exception to the rule and yet he still advocated a strong presence of religion IN government. For crying out loud, it was Tom who was initially responsible for establishing and attending church services being held IN the Capitol building.

It is a mistake to use Thomas Jefferson as a prop for the “keep all religion out of government” cause. A stupid ignorant mistake.

YOU can advocate it all you want. But don’t present the historical record in your arguments or you will look foolishly naive. And I don’t tolerate foolish naivete on matters like this in this forum. I will split you in two, hang your bloody carcass on the stob of a tree and feed you to the crows with a “Dumbass” sign strung around your neck.[/quote]

Stop with the Internet warrior posturing already. It does nothing for your argument, and only makes you come across as a tool.

I never said Jefferson, or any other founding father, dismissed religion entirely. They were wise enough to recognize that preferential treatment of one religion at the expense of other religions was inherently dangerous and undesirable.

Get it yet?

By claiming the nation is a Christian nation, and by giving preference to Christianity over other religions, the government would blatantly violate the separation between church and state through preferential treatment.

76

[quote]forlife wrote:

Stop with the Internet warrior posturing already. It does nothing for your argument, and only makes you come across as a tool.[/quote]

That line right there…pure IRONY!

77

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Let’s see what Tom Jefferson had to say:

“No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example” (by attending church services IN the U.S. Capitol).

Hutson, Religion, p. 96, quoting from a handwritten history in possession of the Library of Congress, Washington Parish, Washington City, by Rev. Ethan Allen.[/quote]

You do realize Jefferson considered Jesus to be a great teacher, but also believed the miracles of the bible, including the resurrection and atonement of Jesus, were hogwash, right?

80

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Let’s see what Tom Jefferson had to say:

“No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example” (by attending church services IN the U.S. Capitol).

Hutson, Religion, p. 96, quoting from a handwritten history in possession of the Library of Congress, Washington Parish, Washington City, by Rev. Ethan Allen.[/quote]

You do realize Jefferson considered Jesus to be a great teacher, but also believed the miracles of the bible, including the resurrection and atonement of Jesus, were hogwash, right?[/quote]

Yes, I do. Your beef should be with him. Not me.

Again, I repeat, Jefferson was not involved with the drafting of the Constitution. At all. He wasn’t even in the US during the 2 - 3 year period that it was drafted, signed and ratified. He IS the exception to the rule when it comes to the Founding Fathers who were devout Christians.

Thus your argument that the “separation of church and state” is a constitutionally enshrined concept is flat out erroneous. The concept was never even discussed or implemented at the public level until the 1940s.

You may want it to be now and that’s fine. Like I told young smh you’re entitled to your opinion. You CAN seek to implement policies that completely estrange religion and politics. But you CANNOT stand on the historical record to bolster your cause without committing egregious acts of falsification.[/quote]

I cited Jefferson as the author of the term, which does not appear in the Constitution. However, the First Amendment is based on the principle iterated by Jefferson:

Clearly, asserting that the U.S. is a Christian nation, and in particular that the government should favor Christianity over other faiths, is a blatant violation of the establishment clause of the Constitution.