[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Now, how would YOU determine that slavery is wrong if everyone around you was agreed otherwise?[/quote]
by realizing black people are people like they are with hope and dreams, the ability to love and feel pain… just like they do.
[/quote]
In other words, by appealing to a universal principle? [/quote]
By appealing to empathy, a common trait among a lot, and yet not all, animals.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]DickBag wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
again, what rules? Circumcision? Wash hands before eating?[/quote]
Circumcision is a joke, and washing your hands is just common sense.
Carry on.[/quote]
Circumcision makes your weener look cool.
Cool is not joke, bro.
And another thing, I don’t have dick cheese.
lolz[/quote]
Am I the only person to wash his penis?
:([/quote]
Yeah, I noticed that, but soon the colonists will have indoor plumbing too and that problem will fix itself.
Why is socially constructed morality the only option in the absence of flawless proof?
Why should society exist? In some form or another it might improve the chances of survival for the greatest number of people, but what imperative do its members have to give a shit about the perpetuation of the race? Or even their own family? Let alone any arbitrary larger framework…?
Given a lack of any real reason to exist, would it be okay (if possible) to just plunge everybody into a chemical ecstasy until the body shuts down? Then humans no longer exist - but why would that matter? After all they all died in complete happiness and fulfillment. What more is there?
[quote]jsal33 wrote:
I find this article refreshing. Its an answer to the question of finding morals without some kind of superhero character. It makes me think that we humans are truly capable of great things even without a ridiculous fear of afterlife punishment. We develop morals. They r not bestowed on us. They evolve as needed. We r also responsible for the horrible things we do to one another. I find it pathetic when people use the excuse of god to dismiss their lot in life. Take personal responsibility for your position and your behavior. Believing in something having control over your destiny has slowed the evolution of civilization[/quote]
I’m not sure how this differs from Religion, except for the denying God part. No religion (at least none that I am aware of) has said your lot in life is blamable on God. That is the excuse of lazy people. Same as if someone said I lost my job because of so and so down the hall. That is just being intellectually lazy. Which by the way is a vice.
[quote]jsal33 wrote:
Morals develop because of a need for people to interact with one another. Free will is not a gift it is simply a reality in a free society. No being decided to ALLOW us to have free will. I behave in a way that would be considered morally sound with no fear of punishment. I choose to behave in a Socially acceptable way.
So morals actually are derived socially. Laws and morals are actually biologically based and allow societies to exist and move forward. If the concept of god never existed we would still have laws and rules to guide us forward. I was not posting about Christianity specifically. Religion has been the greatest divider of humans far more devicive than even race. Free will is a state of mind. Of course not all men have the ability to express their own free will into action due to certain historic oppressions of certain groups. Many times those oppressions are faith based. Always wondered why believers never need proof to blindly follow a tough to swallow story when it is looked at objectively. [/quote]
What you speak of is Natural Law, however that does not dismiss there being a God. That is like saying evolution proves there is no God, that is incorrect and non-logical. It also seems that you may not understand what free will is, you have free will in a Monarchy as well as Anarchy. I do not presume that religion is inherently bad (and for some, good either) however I do know in the case of the Catholic Church and my religion that evil deeds are done because of lack of virtues stemming from letting Satan over throw your life with sin.
[quote]jsal33 wrote:
Did god create black or jewish slaves. No man did. Laws and morals evolve within society. Again not handed down from a being. If you were raised to believe that god made the world 6000 years ago would u agree with that. Remember their was a time that this society had the view that blacks were inferior and should be slaves. Not any more. I just don’t remember hearing about it coming down from god to stop slavery. It evolved out of our society. [/quote]
Well, lets see Natural Law, which the Catholic Church believes, and the Natural and the Supernatural virtues taught by the Catholic Church, where the Catholic Church teachers her morals from come from God, which led, if you do not know, to being one of the biggest opponent of slavery. I know, I know the Catholic Church endorsed it because the History Channel endorses that story, however you should crack a history book, from the other side of the story, open if you really believe that.
[quote]jsal33 wrote:
If i did follow the group ideas or not has nothing to do with god. My answer is NO. Again morals evolve like in biology. Mutations change phenotypic expression just as a dissenting viewpoints sometimes helps the present moral code to evolve. Someone somewhere had a thought that slavery was morally wrong and that MAN created thought spread to evolve slavery out of this society. Moral extinction of slavery. Free will allowed that anti slavery thought to be conceived. [/quote]
I hate to put you on the defensive, but your objections are incorrect. On the contrary, morals are truth, there is only absolute truth. Just because someone is misled, that does not mean morals are not the absolute, that means the person is immoral.
Slavery has always been wrong, does not matter if someone thought it was right. Would you say that the person who still thinks slavery is moral, that that person is moral or that they are disillusioned? I believe you would say they are disillusioned.
[quote]jsal33 wrote:
Thoughts come from individuals. God would not IMPLANT a morally evolving idea in anyones head. Great people have their own thoughts and express them to a group and if it is beneficial the group will adopt the new idea. Just like a positive mutation changes the offspring in a positive way. Not interested in yor thought experiments at all. I read one of your thought exp somewhere and it went nowhere. To believe in something with no rational basis is pathetic to me. The argument that religious folk use that we need to have a superbeing to have morals was debunked quite well by the original article. Without a pipeline to god I guess our moral code is stuck at the time of the writing of whatever religious book you follow. I guess L Ron Hubbard has the most up to date pipeline. Try reading his stuff. [/quote]
Your writing is almost incomprehensible, I am sorry again for insulting you, but really will you stop with all the relativism thing. If you do not wish to believe in something with no rational basis, then you should read some logical books on God, duh. Use a more logical thought process. I do not think it was debunked, I’ll read the article again. However I see multiple logical fallacies in the article.
[quote]jsal33 wrote:
O K I’ll try. Story. As a young boy on my parents plantation a slave rescues me from a well I fell into putting himself in great danger to help me. Later that day my father kills the slave for some silly reason. My young mind finds conflict with my fathers discipline. I grow up to be a great leader of my society and have great influence on people. I express my anti slavery ideas and the group buys my ideas. Slavery is now morally wrong. No god needed. I answered your question with NO. The arrogance you display with these thought exp is amazing. Religious believers are so convinced they are correct and non believers just need to be convinced to join the cult of their choosing. If we don’t agree you can always just kill the infidels. Religion is seriously scary. [/quote]
How does a slave saving you and him being killed for some ‘silly reason’ come to the conclusion that slavery is wrong. That is not logical at all, even though slavery is morally and ethically wrong, that is not a logical path to conclude that slavery is wrong at all. That is equivalent to say that your father has a servant he pays, that servant saved you and your father killed him for some ‘silly reason’ and you coming to a anti-servanthood conclusion.
Except the Catholic Church believes that there is free will, so you can choose to be part of the Communion of Saints, or not. We do not kill ‘infidels.’
[quote]jsal33 wrote:
Do you think that slavery is gone from this country because god spoke to someone?[/quote]
God speaks to the Catholic Church and they opposed it when the majority of people in the slave trade found nothing wrong with it. looks around awkwardly
[quote]jsal33 wrote:
The whole point of the article is that moral evolution happens without a god driving. The slave just saved my life so I kinda like him. I then start to formulate the idea that slaves have value and start to look upon them as people and not property. [/quote]
So you are saying you had an emotional attachment to a slave so that makes you think with reason that slavery is bad. I’m pretty sure that’s not how the argument for the anti-slavery worked, I’m not sure how many slaves rescued little boys out of wells, but I’m sure it was the fact that all humans have the same basic dignity and it is not ethical or morally just to use someone as a means by force.
[quote]jsal33 wrote:
Slavery was at some point considered moral. It evolved out of our society. The mechanism of moral development is unknown to me but i will not fill in that gap with speculation. i tried to create a story to illustrate one possible explanation. [/quote]
It didn’t follow a logical ‘evolutionary’ process. So I am going to say that the morals were always there, however society was misguided. That is more logical than it evolved. I would think if morality would have evolved that people would enslave other races as well before they even came close to the conclusion that no person should be used as a means by force. Nice try, morals are truth and truth is absolute. Slavery has always been wrong.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Now, how would YOU determine that slavery is wrong if everyone around you was agreed otherwise?[/quote]
Probably the same way a lot of people did. Not by using the Bible, but by realizing black people are people like they are with hope and dreams, the ability to love and feel pain… just like they do.
Any Biblical rationalization you see is typically afterthought. If it scares you that there is no giant father figure watching over you, you are weak. If you are scared he (and it is invariably a he) isn’t watching over other people, then you are arrogant.[/quote]
Humans do not derive our morals from the Bible, we can learn about them from there. We can also learn about them from studying other humans. We do not see the Bible as God, so if there was no Bible we would still have our morals. See my point, all humans have the same morals even if they are misled. That would mean that if everyone has the same morals, that there has to be a common source of these morals and since not everyone has read the Bible that would mean it does not inherently come from the Bible. What is with you and blaming everything on the Bible, ever think that Christians can come to a conclusion without the Bible?
My STORY was just a quick way to demonstrate how a thought counter to what the society at the time believed could develop in 1 individual. The slavery ex was not brought up by me. My story was simply to show how morals can evolve without a guiding presence. We as people have shaped society. There is no wizard guiding us. The article was interesting in answering a question I have had about a moral basis for us without the god idea. If a fear of a god is the only thing keeping us in check in this society we are not intellectually evolved at all.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]jsal33 wrote:
Do you think that slavery is gone from this country because god spoke to someone?[/quote]
God speaks to the Catholic Church and they opposed it when the majority of people in the slave trade found nothing wrong with it. looks around awkwardly[/quote]
god speaks to the catholic church
REALLY
Anyone in particular
Broth Chris
“God speaks to the Catholic Church”
REALLY
Anyone in particular
Bad member/advocate of [Insert Religion] =/= [Insert Religion] is bad. That anybody needs that pointed out is a credit to their sheer ineptitude at life.
And Christianity isn’t and never has been about fearing God. If you do, you’re doing it wrong.
[quote]jsal33 wrote:
My STORY was just a quick way to demonstrate how a thought counter to what the society at the time believed could develop in 1 individual. The slavery ex was not brought up by me. My story was simply to show how morals can evolve without a guiding presence. We as people have shaped society. There is no wizard guiding us. The article was interesting in answering a question I have had about a moral basis for us without the god idea. If a fear of a god is the only thing keeping us in check in this society we are not intellectually evolved at all. [/quote]
Who fears God? Cannot it be because, as Christians we do these things because they are the right things to do. Or are we all a bunch of pansies to you?
