Good News for the Good Guys!

Moriarty,

“Great points thunder. My only question is, why the insults? Why is what JTF posted “idiocy”? Why insult Elk? Your post, as usual, is insightful and definitely adds to the discussion at hand, but the insults really do you a disservice.”

Why sugar coat it? JTF always pipes in with an irresponsible agenda - he never just makes a point, it’s always a fusillade of sloppy conspiracy theory and bad arguments. His contentions in the context I read them were pure idiocy - and deliberate.

As for Elk, if he chooses to follow one of my posts addressing JTF by making a backhanded slur at my being like a mindless robot of the SS that follows the Fuhrer - well, I’ll reply in kind.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Rainjack, why are you so damned grumpy? You aren’t willing to discuss anything… just blasting away.[/quote]

Out of 70-some-odd posts on this thread, I’m the grumpy one?

And it’s not ‘blasting away’ - it’s more like shooting fish in a barrel.

BTW - have you started tanning yet?

Moriarty,

“I also saw numerous people on this board (everywhere really), that stated they supported the war in Iraq because they wanted revenge on the people that did 9/11, and because they wanted to fight the terrorists on their soil.”

Ok.

“That’s not why we went to Iraq though, right? We went to Iraq to establish a favorable strategic position and to promote democracy in the region, thereby eliminating the kind of eco-political environment that fosters terrorist activity, right?”

There isn’t one reason we invaded Iraq - read the Senate Resolution. All kinds of great reasons to get rid of Saddam: stop a known broker of WMDs, fight terror abroad, give an Arab country a chance at liberation and republican government, power projection, etc.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Moriarty,

“I also saw numerous people on this board (everywhere really), that stated they supported the war in Iraq because they wanted revenge on the people that did 9/11, and because they wanted to fight the terrorists on their soil.”

Ok.

“That’s not why we went to Iraq though, right? We went to Iraq to establish a favorable strategic position and to promote democracy in the region, thereby eliminating the kind of eco-political environment that fosters terrorist activity, right?”

There isn’t one reason we invaded Iraq - read the Senate Resolution. All kinds of great reasons to get rid of Saddam: stop a known broker of WMDs, fight terror abroad, give an Arab country a chance at liberation and republican government, power projection, etc.[/quote]

I didn’t state my point clearly. You and ProfX had an exchange in which you claimed that most people understood that Hussein and 9/11 weren’t directly related, but I’m not so sure that’s true. The polling data I’ve seen suggests otherwise, and one of the most common rationales I’ve heard for going to war to is “kill the terrorists that committed 9/11”.

Given that I’d have to say ProfX has a pretty good point in that the administration leveraged the misconception that Hussein had a direct connection to 9/11 in order to sway popular opinion for going to war.

Do you have any data or sources to support your claim that most people understood there wasn’t a direct connection?

Shooting fish in a barrel? Howabout talking about real issues in a serious way, instead of wagging around talking points like they are cut and dried when they aren’t?

Also, aren’t you embarrassed by chief cheerleader Jeff? I mean, are you happy having such idiotic posts on behalf of republicans all the time? Is he truly a representative of your camp?

[quote]vroom wrote:
Rainjack, why are you so damned grumpy? You aren’t willing to discuss anything… just blasting away.[/quote]

maybe because he gets tired of being called things like “ss officer” and “mind numbed”…but if he replies in kind he’s going to be called grumpy or worse.
Maybe that’s what’s got him irritated.

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
vroom wrote:
Rainjack, why are you so damned grumpy? You aren’t willing to discuss anything… just blasting away.

maybe because he gets tired of being called things like “ss officer” and “mind numbed”…but if he replies in kind he’s going to be called grumpy or worse.
Maybe that’s what’s got him irritated.
[/quote]

Joe, get a bottle, no make that two bottles, of Alpha Male and double dose it. I think your estrogen levels are a little elevated.

Vroom, I think rainman’s raging out a little. Think of the battalions of terrorists that could be taken out if you let rainman loose in the middle east! Hand him an M-60 and a bandelaro of ammo and this war would be over.

[quote]JTF,

Do you even the read the garbage you post as evidence for your ridiculous ideas first? [/quote]

Yes. But this statement from the article in my previous post, “Since 1994 it has collected just $9,425 in fines for terrorism financing violations.” needs to be updated. You can add $25 million to that total. Thanks for making me look at that a little closer, I almost missed that.

Riggs Bank fined $25M for Saudi transactions
WASHINGTON (APOnline) - Federal regulators fined Riggs Bank a record $25 million on Thursday for allegedly violating anti-money laundering laws in its handling of tens of millions in cash transactions in Saudi-controlled accounts under investigation for possible links to terrorism financing.

The civil fine against the midsize Washington bank with a near-exclusive franchise on business with the capital’s diplomatic community is the largest ever imposed on a financial institution for such violations, experts said. It had been expected.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/banking/2004-05-14-riggs-fine_x.htm

Aren’t you sick of the liberal media droning on and on about that – blah, blah, blah… Bush’s uncle is a top Riggs executive http://tinyurl.com/c2bvo … blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Certainly the Bush connection, as we all know, is PURELY coincidental – now if for instance the Bushes had a prior cozy relationship with the Saudis’, then it might start to look a little suspicious. Of course as always, I’ll be reminded that this is unimportant, irrelevant, wacky, “conspiracy theory” stuff – after all what does this have to do with Iraq?.. MOVE ALONG – NOTHING TO SEE HERE… yawn. Quit trying to change the plot in the middle of the story.

[quote]Treasury Dept. - that lopsided assignment was instigated in 1990. Shutting down illegal business contacts with Cuba was a priority - after all, as of 1990, how may terror attacks had we suffered?

Don’t forget, this policy was created prior to the 1991 Gulf War, which was presumably one of the main drivers of OBL’s desire to attack the West - ie, US presence in the Gulf and in Saudi Arabia, etc. In this context, why would targeting OBL in 1990 make sense?

Also, as the priorities shifted in the 1990’s, it would have been the Clinton administration’s call to get the necessary reform. Now I am not here to ‘blame’ Clinton, but since 8 years went by without reform under Clinton’s watch, it is foolish to think that somehow this policy is the dark conspiracy of the Bush dynasty. But then, common sense has never been your strong suit.

Moreover, the article itself talks about how government officials were voicing concerns that there was a failure in the bureaucracy to adequately adapt from the Cold War to the Age of Terror - an important topic, but it can be hardly said that bureaucratic failure and oversight can be realistic evidence of a conspiracy to intentionally not go after OBL.[/quote]

“Sen. Max Baucus, the top Democrat on the Senate Finance Committee, requested the figures, which showed that at the end of 2003, OFAC had 21 full-time agents working Cuba violations and just four full-time workers hunting bin Laden’s and Saddam’s riches.

Is it just me or does anyone else come up with two years between 9/11/2001 and “the end of 2003”? (To be fair, we did see firsthand how much damage a single cigar can do to our country) A little shift in focus would have been nice, maybe bring in a couple of temps - I thought after 9/11, Bin Laden was the “Ace of Spades”, “Public Enemy #1”, our “Top Priority” – hunt him down, smoke him out of his cave.
U.S. Ties to Saudi Elite May Be Hurting War on Terrorism
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1210-04.htm

Of course I’M accused of making wacky connections yet somehow you can make perfect sense of Bush’s “Magical Mystery Tour” from New York to Afghanistan to Iraq – where the hunt for Bin Laden and retribution for 9/11 suddenly switched to Iraq and WMD’s to liberating the Iraqi people. Of course even though we knew BEFORE we went into Iraq that intelligence was bad and inspectors had found nothing, we were assured they were there. http://tinyurl.com/66w9 What did we find - NOTHING.

When skeptics of the war said we would find NO WEAPONS and then after two years they’ve found NO WEAPONS, you might logically conclude there were NO WEAPONS. But not to the Bushites, just proof they were moved - can’t move something if it wasn’t ever there to begin with (HA HA, take THAT liberals). CNN.com - U.S. study: Iraq likely didn't ship WMD to Syria - Apr 26, 2005 Besides that’s not the main reason we went in there – we went there mainly to liberate the Iraqi people from an evil dictator.

Who DOESN’T remember America’s rally cry to “Liberate Iraq!” after the towers fell. I still get a lump in my throat remembering how we all felt, thinking about how that son-of-a-bitch Bin Laden was going to wish he had NEVER BEEN BORN when the Iraqi people finally voted! You can’t put a price on that my friend - unless that price happens to be $300 billion.

[quote]“As myth has it he’ll also be riding a unicorn when he’s captured.”

You know, JTF, I almost didn’t reply to this - there’s no sport in refuting you anymore.[/quote]

Yeah that was a little over the top – I have a feeling they might actually find a unicorn.

More likely the announcement will be made that we finally got him and we’ll be shown a bullet riddled corpse - yep, that’s him alright.

“The hijackers also left no paper trail. In our investigation, we have not uncovered a single piece of paper - either here in the U.S. or in the treasure trove of information that has turned up in Afghanistan and elsewhere - that mentioned any aspect of the September 11th plot. The hijackers had no computers, no laptops, no storage media of any kind.”
-Robert S. Mueller, III, Director, FBI

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
vroom wrote:
Rainjack, why are you so damned grumpy? You aren’t willing to discuss anything… just blasting away.

maybe because he gets tired of being called things like “ss officer” and “mind numbed”…but if he replies in kind he’s going to be called grumpy or worse.
Maybe that’s what’s got him irritated.
[/quote]

Dammit Joe, stop your friggin whining already. Is that all you can do is whine because Elk called you a few names instead of respond to any of your points. And now whats worse, you feel the need to start whining for rainman, friggin jeez, he’s plenty capable of whining for himself. If you didn’t know, we have all become quite good at whining lately, just ask Elky.

Well it’s either that, or the “you haven’t served so STFU” bit got a little old, so now he’s just found his new identity as … “The guy who accuses everyone he disagrees with of being a whiner” yea I know it’s not very catchy and it will have to be refined a little bit. Perhaps we can put our heads together sometime and think of a snazzy new title for the bloak.

Anyways, vroom please don’t take elks lead, non of us whine any more than anyone else, and shit if we call for civil discourse it’s hardly whining, I actually think it’s been one of your main pet peeves for oh what like the past 2 years. On a side note, I am sure Elk-man-do will consider this another of my whiney posts, but at this point I kinda like pressing his buttons so I guess it’s ok.

V

[quote]vroom wrote:
Shooting fish in a barrel? Howabout talking about real issues in a serious way, instead of wagging around talking points like they are cut and dried when they aren’t?[/quote]

Sorry vroom. You and I have totally different debating styles. I make my points loud and clear. You cannot read one of my posts and wonder which side of an issue I’m on. As for issues - show me one that I have ducked, or ignored.

Who says my points aren’t cut and dried? The ‘great relativist’? If I didn’t think I was right right - I’d shut the hell up and do something else. I seriously doubt you’d find me on here making cameo appearances, feigning neutrality, and trying to make myself feel important by singling a person out for his beliefs - then disappearing.

But that’s just me. Ooooops might you have mistaken that for an attack? Is it an attack if you are returning fire? Because if you read through this thread, it might just be obvious that you, sir, fired first.

JeffR is representative of JeffR. He makes valid points. It’s not his fault that the whacked-out left has trouble with what he says. Idiotic? By what standard? JTF’s? I haven’t seen anything from Mr.R, that is out of date and totally tangent to any point that is being debated.

Tell me WTF your point is. You start out attacking me, then try and bait me into insulting JeffR - WTF?

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Vroom, I think rainman’s raging out a little. Think of the battalions of terrorists that could be taken out if you let rainman loose in the middle east! Hand him an M-60 and a bandelaro of ammo and this war would be over.[/quote]

It’d be nice if we’d allow the troops already over there to do that.

Once again with the if you support the war pick up a weapon and do it yourself mantra?

Doesn’t the left have ANYTHING new?

Moriarty,

"…one of the most common rationales I’ve heard for going to war to is “kill the terrorists that committed 9/11.”

But that’s my point - it wasn’t a rationale of the administration.

And, though Pro X claims the administration ‘leveraged’ the attitude to help its mission. How so? There were legitimate avenues to explore regarding contacts in Baghdad.

I fully believe that the American public was in a vengeful mood - and the polls show that the public thought Saddam was directly involved. But, unlike Pro X, I don’t think those attitudes were ‘leveraged’ in bad faith by Bush.

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
Joe Weider wrote:
I sort of resent being called an SS Officer by Senor Elk, who lectured me just the other day about how we needed to show respect for each other here.

There you go again Joe, fishing for something to get emotional over. Now judging from the dirt you can sling (one only need reference Powda’s threads) you would think you were a little tougher then that. Predictable you are. You and Veg are getting more liberal and whiney by the minute!

Not emotional and certainly not whining, just idly musing why I have to show respect but you can call people names.
It’s an interesting double standard.
Please stop accusing me of trying to get emotional.
And powda likes it. He actually PM’s me and tells me of some of his exploits…

BTW, have you seen the new Star Wars? Cause you’re into Yoda-speak already, bro!

In all seriousness, though, Elk–why can you say shit about me or Veg…but we can’t return the favor?
I don’t care that much, but it’s an interesting window into the soul of liberal hypocrisy.

[/quote]

I read this after my last post and had ot come back and respond. Knock off your childish bullshit already! You can can say whatever the hell you want to you don’t need to please me.

I made a generalization with the SS comment and you are trying to milk it for all it’s worth. Thunder is more then capable as all can see to take care of himself, but noooo, Joe spots something he thinks he can a make a point with and plays the “I’m the guy who says powda has cum on his chin, but my feelings are hurt cuz someone else was compared to an SS officer,” role!

Cut the phony bullshit and act like a man. Veg, in my opinion brings that shit on himself by acting like he’s the authority on everything.

Rainman has been one of the most abrasive, insulting, maniacs, on the forum and has no hesitation calling someone an ignorant, idiot, coward, pussy, to name a few.

So, again, cut the fuckin cry me a river bullshit and don’t PM me either.

Just like you did with ProfX you PM someone under the guise of let’s be friends and understand each other then like a fucking fifth grader you go spouting off to the forum “So and so said this to me,”. Fucking shameless IMO!

“Everyone’s worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there’s a really easy way : STOP PARTICIPATING IN IT.”

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
I fully believe that the American public was in a vengeful mood - and the polls show that the public thought Saddam was directly involved. But, unlike Pro X, I don’t think those attitudes were ‘leveraged’ in bad faith by Bush.

[/quote]

I doubt most of us were asleep during the relation of the terrorists to Iraq. I am sure many in this country believed that was the EXACT reason we were going to war, to avenge the deaths of those who were killed in the Towers. Now, after it has been proven there was no connection, you all want to act as if we went in for the soul reason of stopping Saddam. Mind you, this is after no WMD’s were found. You still have people hoping we find a stockpile somewhere.

Needless to say, after a tragedy of those proportions, what sense would it have made to immediately send more troops into harm’s way for an unrelated cause? You know as well as I that there was a relation made. The “war initiative” fed off of the pain and lust for revenge of the American people. I also know that many of you wish you had one of those pen-like devices from Men In Black so that you could erase that issue from everyone’s brain.

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:

Just like you did with ProfX you PM someone under the guise of let’s be friends and understand each other then like a fucking fifth grader you go spouting off to the forum “So and so said this to me,”. Fucking shameless IMO! [/quote]

Yes, it is.

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Rainman has been one of the most abrasive, insulting, maniacs, on the forum and has no hesitation calling someone an ignorant, idiot, coward, pussy, to name a few.
[/quote]

Abrasive? Insulting? Maniac? Me? Why whatever do you mean?

Elk, Elk, Elk…Where’s the love, man - where’s the love?

JTF,

From the top.

“You can add $25 million to that total. Thanks for making me look at that a little closer, I almost missed that.”

So, Bush’s Treasury Department is actually doing the job you accused it of not doing because Bush was trying to protect the Saudis? If you were Bush, why would you allow a $25 million fine against the financiers of your little cabal? Somewhat counterproductive, wouldn’t you agree?

So you are trying to weave a conspiracy theory because Bush was related to someone in the bank? Bush’s admminstration is levying the fine. Rather difficult to claim that Bush is giving the Saudis a pass while simultaneously cracking down on the bank’s activities.

“Is it just me or does anyone else come up with two years between 9/11/2001 and “the end of 2003”?”

The point, which you conveniently ignore, is that the entire point of the article was that the setup was done in 1990 and the setup had not been adequately reformed with regards to the needs of the day. Evidence of inefficiency? Yes. Evidence of incompetence? Possibly. Evidence of a deliberate plan to keep OBL a free man? Nope.

“A little shift in focus would have been nice”

I agree - but see above. The only way you could see that as evidence of a larger, more sinister plan is if you are hallucinating.

“…where the hunt for Bin Laden and retribution for 9/11 suddenly switched to Iraq and WMD’s to liberating the Iraqi people.”

Nothing switched. It was never an either-or.

“When skeptics of the war said we would find NO WEAPONS and then after two years they’ve found NO WEAPONS, you might logically conclude there were NO WEAPONS. But not to the Bushites, just proof they were moved - can’t move something if it wasn’t ever there to begin with”

Here’s the short answer - if Saddam had nothing, why bluff? But he did, and we called - and the rest is history, literally.

“Yeah that was a little over the top – I have a feeling they might actually find a unicorn.”

I’d wager that the chances of finding a unicorn are probably higher than finding a substantial argument in your windy posts. But that is just a hunch. I don’t believe in unicorns, and certainly I don’t believe in sloppy, lazy conspiracies.

Sometimes internet anonymity can be such a drag - I wonder if people would say the things they say if we were all sitting at a table together. I suspect not.

Pro X,

“The “war initiative” fed off of the pain and lust for revenge of the American people. I also know that many of you wish you had one of those pen-like devices from Men In Black so that you could erase that issue from everyone’s brain.”

I have a smashing idea:

Go review Resolution 1441, the bipartisan Senate Resolution authorizing force, Bush’s SOTU and the UN speech - and then make an educated determination as to what the rationale was behind the war.

Perhaps then you can sure the usual defects in your posts regarding why we went to war. You can disagree with going to war, but you should at least get the story straight - there was a laundry list of reasons we wanted to topple Saddam, all public, all available to anyone willing and able to read.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
there was a laundry list of reasons we wanted to topple Saddam, all public, all available to anyone willing and able to read.[/quote]

That “laundry list” was presented to the general public as a solution for the crisis that had recently occured. Are you truly going to deny that? Is your position honestly that the War in Iraq was not spun in a way to have anything to do with The Twin Towers?