Well then the question begs if it’s not dominance, why would they do it to a child and not an adult as you’ve stated prior? As i said before, I don’t care what we call it, I just would frown upon it, however you wish to label it.
Yorkie… did someone say Yorkie yet?
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Well then the question begs if it’s not dominance, why would they do it to a child and not an adult as you’ve stated prior? As i said before, I don’t care what we call it, I just would frown upon it, however you wish to label it.[/quote]
You know, honestly, I think it’s because you don’t see adults running around frolicking.
Next time there’s a party out there, I’ll see who’s up for tag.
I wonder if you’re thinking the animal is being physical, jumping on them. (Which does happen, border collies are awful with that habit) It’s more a nudge.
Then again, maybe they’re just successfully showing they’re smarter than humans.
Want to agree to disagree, and settle for making fun of yap-yap dogs like yorkies?
[quote]ether_bunny wrote:
Want to agree to disagree, and settle for making fun of yap-yap dogs like yorkies?[/quote]
Hey now, leave yorkies out of your disagreement.
Or I’ll get my yorkie on you.
“Sic 'em Honeybun, sic 'em”
I might be kicking a dead horse, but I think when you’re strickly talking about dogs for home protection you need to evaluate them according to their crime deterrence capabilities. A dog will not actually be able to defend a home all that adequately, and I’m sure I’ll hear how rough and tough certain dogs are, but c’mon if someone really wanted to break in or do harm to you a dog will either deter them from even trying, or at best be able to slow down a highly motivated full grown man (especially if their armed).
I’ve grown up with a lot of different large dog breeds, and I understand there are plenty of effective protection dogs, but I think the image they present to a potential offender can far outweigh their actual efficacy. When I was younger my parents had a Chesapeake Bay Retriever, and while it made for an incredible defence dog everyone that saw it just thought it was a friendly labrador (which it was anything but).
My vote is for the well known large breeds. The German Shepherd (also Belgian Malinois)and Rottweiler seem the most obvious to me. They are large, imposing, and people who know nothing about dogs at least recognize them as very dangerous things (which they may or may not be). Huskies can also work because of their similar appearance to wolves (I know that sounds pretty stupid, but I was suprised by how many people reacted this way to a Husky I had). Pits and Dobermans and the like are recognized as dangerous, but a bit smallish to make the appropriate impression.
The take home point is that a dog needs to not only protect a home, but also look like it will protect a home to the untrained eye.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]jre67t wrote:
If it is just you and mom get an American Pitbull, real loyal and extremely territorial. They are aggressive though. Real smart dogs. Our dog catches rats and possums along with squirrels. There is stigma with pitbulls but if your trying to protect your house its a good stigma to have.[/quote]
If you get a well-bred pitbull, it will never show any aggression toward humans though, so it won’t be an effective guard dog. Dobermans and Rottweilers are bred to respond to a threat to their owners, whether from humans or another animal. A pitbull won’t respond the same way, unless it’s poorly bred and is therefore a bad dog to have around anyways. A well-bred pit will still exhibit aggression toward other animals without being overly aggressive toward other dogs, especially ones that are smaller than it.[/quote]
I’m sorry, but this is simply not true. How many of y’all that are commenting on pits have 'em or have spent significant time around the breed? I have 3 Razors Edge pits and they are all as loyal, loving and goofy as can be. They love people and other animals, but make no mistake if someone were to step to me or my family or try and get where they’re not wanted everyone of my dogs would [and have] take action. You do need to expose pits to other breeds early 'cause their heritage is as farm dogs. They’re critter getters at heart and if they’re not used to small dogs a rat terrier just looks like a rat. And for the record, I can take all of my dogs to the park and they’ll play with other dogs all day. The problem is that other dogs generally try to “test” them, especially my male. Because of this I no longer take him to the dog park. Oh, and even though BG and I have had our differences on this board the guy knows his dogs. People need to listen when he talks about dogs.[/quote]
You got some bullshit pits then. Pitbulls were bred starting in the 1880’s (in America) for fighting, plain and simple. They should have ZERO aggression toward humans because they were bred to be able to be pulled out of the ring in the middle of a fight by its owner or a referee without turning on the human. Any pitbull that does not meet this standard is an example of poor breeding. In the past, any pitbull that EVER showed aggression toward a human, especially unprovoked aggression, was shot on sight so that it would not contaminate the breed.
I’ve had three pitbulls, all of whom came from professional breeders who breed the dogs for temperament and conformation and looks, meaning that the dogs are bred to meet AKC and/or UKC standards. I’m very familiar with Razor’s Edge breeders and dogs. They’re bullshit dogs, period. They aren’t bred for anything other than the typical bully look and as a result factors like temperament, conformity and intelligence are cast aside. Their dogs don’t even approach the ideal look and temperament of a real pitbull. This is a link to a great breeder down in Florida that I got my current dog from. They breed for show, not rap videos like Razor’s Edge, and as a result their dogs are bred primarily for temperament and looks. My puppy is from the first pair of dogs shown (Steel and Blaze).
http://www.dogdayskennel.com/Available_Puppies_Page.htm[/quote]
I don’t give a fuck what you consider bullshit or not, 'cause you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. Pits were bred in ENGLAND, and were used for a variety of things. Yes, fighting was one of them. But, when they were shipped over they were used mostly as farm dogs, hence the “critter gitter” label. The apbt was actually Americas dog and was used as the face for patriotism during WW1. And, if you did a little more research instead of talking out of your fucking ass you’d realize that Razors Edge are actually bred for temperment and intelligence, as well as the traditional bully look. And, once again, if you’d read I mentioned more than once how awesome my dogs are around people and other animals. [/quote]
I agree with DB, and your dogs are bully’s not pit bulls, for a representation of an actual pit bull, check out lil bit down below.
I would never put a bully in a 30 with a APBT, they’ll end up chewed up and spit out. I’ve had the unfortunate experience of seeing two bully’s get in a fight. They lasted all of four minutes before they ran out of air. (FYI: Real dog fights last around :45 - 1:30hrs)
[photo]25216[/photo][/quote]
LOL. A real dog fight can be over quite quickly or it can drag on for more than 1:30. There is no rule. But yes, a bully pit, and any other breed for that matter, is done just as soon as it gets tired or, as soon as it gets back what it gives out. [/quote]
I was talking about average fights, not when a dog won’t scratch or something along those lines.[/quote]
Well, even most curs will give 30 minutes. I was referring to those rare dogs that can be very destructive, very quickly. And of course, I am referring to historical publicized accounts of such dogs that have occurred from time to time in our favored bloodlines.[/quote]
yes, my uncle told me of a dog killer clowns bomber, these idiots cut 20lbs, off of her in 2 weeks, starved, and her match was over 2 hrs, it was considered a draw because she died scratchin’. I had 2 males and a female out of her and ch nigel.
but yeah, from the stories I was told and shown in the journal most fights we at least an hour, and we think MMA fighters have good anaerobic endurance.
[quote]DragnCarry wrote:
[quote]apbt55 wrote:
[quote]DragnCarry wrote:
[quote]ether_bunny wrote:
Border Collies are very, very smart dogs. I mean how many dogs are trainable to differentiate left and right? [/quote]
We also do it with gun-dogs and it’s being used in agility a lot these days. I taught a whole class of different breeds to do it in about 20 minutes total of training time over 4 weeks. Most breeds turn out to be smarter than we give them credit for if we let them figure stuff out without fear of getting it wrong.
Out of anyone here, I don’t think BG is making that assumption. That said, I agree with you and, whilst I discourage herding anything other than livestock (under direction) and gym balls, I don’t think it is a dominance “problem” so much as a misplaced instinct.
[/quote]
one question and I will get off the dominance kick, does you dog try to herd you?[/quote]
Me? No. My dog is not from herding lines, she is from East German lines.
And sorry if I’ve offended anyone by not sharing the same opinions on dominance. It’s hard not to tread on a few toes and I don’t mean to, I’ve just been over this ground so many times myself. You can apply a different theory to just about any situation and come up with a satisfactory but incomplete answer. If a dog herds a person is he trying to control that person? Yes. So could we call that dominance? Yes. If we let him do it will he start owning your ass? Maybe, it depends. One of my gundogs, a dog with a very sweet and highly biddable disposition, noticed a toddler wandering towards the road at the park and herded the child back. Not really a problem behavior.
If I took off the “pack theory filter” and put on the “behaviourism filter” I could come up with a different explanation that seems equally plausible.
However, when it comes to modifying the behaviour, the pack theory explanation really starts to fall apart. It just isn’t plausible. “My dog herds me what should I do?” “Pin him down and make him submit”. OK, it might work (or you might screw a perfectly good dog up). But there are lots of ways to change behaviour that don’t look anything like a display of dominance. You can teach a dog who herds people to heel for them instead, no punishment at all, no dominance rituals. I suppose you do become more dominant because the dog is more obedient to you? Like I said, you can look at it any which way.
Anyway, I mentioned a video earlier. It’s worth watching if you’re interested in working dogs and have kids. It’s all conditioning:
And here is the protection routine:
[/quote]
what do you mean by behavioralism? My undergrad was a double major in pre med neuroscience and exercise phys, had a lot of study in evolutionary psych and behavior. With pack animals hierarchy and dominace were the theories that held their weight, the rest require extensive personification of their behavior and were far reaching at best.
But it is hard sometimes to not confuse behavior for more than it is, alot of people with more dominant breeds often confuse being possessive with being protective, a guard dog with a protection dog.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]jre67t wrote:
If it is just you and mom get an American Pitbull, real loyal and extremely territorial. They are aggressive though. Real smart dogs. Our dog catches rats and possums along with squirrels. There is stigma with pitbulls but if your trying to protect your house its a good stigma to have.[/quote]
If you get a well-bred pitbull, it will never show any aggression toward humans though, so it won’t be an effective guard dog. Dobermans and Rottweilers are bred to respond to a threat to their owners, whether from humans or another animal. A pitbull won’t respond the same way, unless it’s poorly bred and is therefore a bad dog to have around anyways. A well-bred pit will still exhibit aggression toward other animals without being overly aggressive toward other dogs, especially ones that are smaller than it.[/quote]
I’m sorry, but this is simply not true. How many of y’all that are commenting on pits have 'em or have spent significant time around the breed? I have 3 Razors Edge pits and they are all as loyal, loving and goofy as can be. They love people and other animals, but make no mistake if someone were to step to me or my family or try and get where they’re not wanted everyone of my dogs would [and have] take action. You do need to expose pits to other breeds early 'cause their heritage is as farm dogs. They’re critter getters at heart and if they’re not used to small dogs a rat terrier just looks like a rat. And for the record, I can take all of my dogs to the park and they’ll play with other dogs all day. The problem is that other dogs generally try to “test” them, especially my male. Because of this I no longer take him to the dog park. Oh, and even though BG and I have had our differences on this board the guy knows his dogs. People need to listen when he talks about dogs.[/quote]
You got some bullshit pits then. Pitbulls were bred starting in the 1880’s (in America) for fighting, plain and simple. They should have ZERO aggression toward humans because they were bred to be able to be pulled out of the ring in the middle of a fight by its owner or a referee without turning on the human. Any pitbull that does not meet this standard is an example of poor breeding. In the past, any pitbull that EVER showed aggression toward a human, especially unprovoked aggression, was shot on sight so that it would not contaminate the breed.
I’ve had three pitbulls, all of whom came from professional breeders who breed the dogs for temperament and conformation and looks, meaning that the dogs are bred to meet AKC and/or UKC standards. I’m very familiar with Razor’s Edge breeders and dogs. They’re bullshit dogs, period. They aren’t bred for anything other than the typical bully look and as a result factors like temperament, conformity and intelligence are cast aside. Their dogs don’t even approach the ideal look and temperament of a real pitbull. This is a link to a great breeder down in Florida that I got my current dog from. They breed for show, not rap videos like Razor’s Edge, and as a result their dogs are bred primarily for temperament and looks. My puppy is from the first pair of dogs shown (Steel and Blaze).
http://www.dogdayskennel.com/Available_Puppies_Page.htm[/quote]
I don’t give a fuck what you consider bullshit or not, 'cause you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. Pits were bred in ENGLAND, and were used for a variety of things. Yes, fighting was one of them. But, when they were shipped over they were used mostly as farm dogs, hence the “critter gitter” label. The apbt was actually Americas dog and was used as the face for patriotism during WW1. And, if you did a little more research instead of talking out of your fucking ass you’d realize that Razors Edge are actually bred for temperment and intelligence, as well as the traditional bully look. And, once again, if you’d read I mentioned more than once how awesome my dogs are around people and other animals. [/quote]
I agree with DB, and your dogs are bully’s not pit bulls, for a representation of an actual pit bull, check out lil bit down below.
I would never put a bully in a 30 with a APBT, they’ll end up chewed up and spit out. I’ve had the unfortunate experience of seeing two bully’s get in a fight. They lasted all of four minutes before they ran out of air. (FYI: Real dog fights last around :45 - 1:30hrs)
[photo]25216[/photo][/quote]
LOL. A real dog fight can be over quite quickly or it can drag on for more than 1:30. There is no rule. But yes, a bully pit, and any other breed for that matter, is done just as soon as it gets tired or, as soon as it gets back what it gives out. [/quote]
I was talking about average fights, not when a dog won’t scratch or something along those lines.[/quote]
Well, even most curs will give 30 minutes. I was referring to those rare dogs that can be very destructive, very quickly. And of course, I am referring to historical publicized accounts of such dogs that have occurred from time to time in our favored bloodlines.[/quote]
Oh, I think I remember a dog by the name of Jet (or, Black Jet) that it was rumoured that he scratched so hard, that no dog would scratch twice against him.
[quote]ether_bunny wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Well then the question begs if it’s not dominance, why would they do it to a child and not an adult as you’ve stated prior? As i said before, I don’t care what we call it, I just would frown upon it, however you wish to label it.[/quote]
You know, honestly, I think it’s because you don’t see adults running around frolicking.
Next time there’s a party out there, I’ll see who’s up for tag.
I wonder if you’re thinking the animal is being physical, jumping on them. (Which does happen, border collies are awful with that habit) It’s more a nudge.
Then again, maybe they’re just successfully showing they’re smarter than humans.
Want to agree to disagree, and settle for making fun of yap-yap dogs like yorkies?[/quote]
No, I don’t think they are jumping on them, I know exactly what they are doing. I think you’re judging them on curve. If a larger more aggressive breed was “nudging” children, would you accept it? Like I said, probably no harm no foul but I wouldn’t accept it.
Yorkies? LOL. “Not that there is anything wrong with that” LOL. But seriously, I love all dogs, I just wouldn’t own certain breeds.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Yorkies? LOL. “Not that there is anything wrong with that” LOL. But seriously, I love all dogs, I just wouldn’t own certain breeds.
[/quote]
Amen. I don’t know what people are thinking with australian shepherds in their condos. Seriously, get a corgie already.
One of my roommates just got a rott/chow mix puppy. He is a dingus too so the dog is most likely not going to be well trained. Should be an interesting year.
[quote]apbt55 wrote:
what do you mean by behavioralism?[/quote]
Operant and Respondent Conditioning. Pavlov, Skinner etc.
“Personification” is one of the arguments against hierarchy and dominance. The argument against behaviorism is a distinct lack of personification.
The pre-eminent wolf researcher, L. David Mech, coined the term “alpha” in his early work and has renounced it completely as being inaccurate and misleading. Now he just refers to “breeders” - that’s all it means. Mom and Dad.
Pack theory was based on early observations of captive wild wolves. It is now recognised as an observation of abnormal behavior, i.e in the wild wolves do not behave like that.
[quote] But it is hard sometimes to not confuse behavior for more than it is
[/quote]
Even Sigmund Freud, famous for reading a LOT into everything as the founder of the psychodynamic approach, once said “sometimes a cigar is just a cigar” 
I’m actually shocked at the lack of support for American Bulldogs. I’ve owned a retriever and pit. To the average person an american bulldog looks like a taller version of a pit or pit mix.
My dog I got from a shelter is likely an american bulldog or american bulldog mix. The physical description from the AKC fits him perfectly.
This is another pic from the web.
[quote]RenegadeDragon wrote:
I’m actually shocked at the lack of support for American Bulldogs. I’ve owned a retriever and pit. To the average person an american bulldog looks like a taller version of a pit or pit mix.
My dog I got from a shelter is likely an american bulldog or american bulldog mix. The physical description from the AKC fits him perfectly.
This is another pic from the web.[/quote]
Great dogs when they’re “right” but unfortunately too much variation in type and temperament to suit my taste. Lots of potential there for the right breeding program though. Lots of garbage out there too though 
But that’s true with most breeds. Keep in mind I’m coming from a strictly performance based perspective on working dogs.
Dogs wouldnt do nothing to protect a home, maybe from some kids. Best to get a gun. Heres how it would go down if a dog vs a person who wanted to break in your home.
(pretty much the guy owns the crap out of the dog, if the cops didnt step in which im sure they did after the video, the guy would have probably strangled it to death.)
[quote]hairygorillaguy wrote:
(pretty much the guy owns the crap out of the dog
[/quote]
The dog did exactly what it was supposed to do, and did it well. That guy had no hope.
[quote]DragnCarry wrote:
[quote]hairygorillaguy wrote:
(pretty much the guy owns the crap out of the dog
[/quote]
The dog did exactly what it was supposed to do, and did it well. That guy had no hope.
[/quote]
Can you elaborate for the people who don’t know what they just saw?
[quote]krazykoukides wrote:
[quote]DragnCarry wrote:
[quote]hairygorillaguy wrote:
(pretty much the guy owns the crap out of the dog
[/quote]
The dog did exactly what it was supposed to do, and did it well. That guy had no hope.
[/quote]
Can you elaborate for the people who don’t know what they just saw?[/quote]
I don’t know the back-story so I can’t tell you for certain what might have happened had the dog not been there, but from the looks of it the dog wasn’t the first thing they tried
The dog comes in, engages the perpetrator, and enables the cops to more safely make an arrest. That dog was not giving up despite the abuse and the only thing on the perps mind was defending himself against the dog (allowing the cops to move in).
An incredibly small percentage of pet dogs would be able to do this work. Even well-bred, working line German Shepherds and Malinois (the dog in the vid) wouldn’t be likely to do this without lots of specific training. You’ll notice the dog just kept coming back in for a bite, no matter what. This is the result of good breeding and good training.
In any case, the dog is never sent in to start AND finish the job. So the perp was screwed from the start, didn’t matter what he did to the dog so long as the dog engaged him.
Do you guys think it makes a difference if your guard dog is male or female?
[quote]mjhq75 wrote:
Do you guys think it makes a difference if your guard dog is male or female?[/quote]
What can be worse than a guard dog on her period?