Good Guard Dogs

Off Topic
221

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]jre67t wrote:
If it is just you and mom get an American Pitbull, real loyal and extremely territorial. They are aggressive though. Real smart dogs. Our dog catches rats and possums along with squirrels. There is stigma with pitbulls but if your trying to protect your house its a good stigma to have.[/quote]

If you get a well-bred pitbull, it will never show any aggression toward humans though, so it won’t be an effective guard dog. Dobermans and Rottweilers are bred to respond to a threat to their owners, whether from humans or another animal. A pitbull won’t respond the same way, unless it’s poorly bred and is therefore a bad dog to have around anyways. A well-bred pit will still exhibit aggression toward other animals without being overly aggressive toward other dogs, especially ones that are smaller than it.[/quote]

I’m sorry, but this is simply not true. How many of y’all that are commenting on pits have 'em or have spent significant time around the breed? I have 3 Razors Edge pits and they are all as loyal, loving and goofy as can be. They love people and other animals, but make no mistake if someone were to step to me or my family or try and get where they’re not wanted everyone of my dogs would [and have] take action. You do need to expose pits to other breeds early 'cause their heritage is as farm dogs. They’re critter getters at heart and if they’re not used to small dogs a rat terrier just looks like a rat. And for the record, I can take all of my dogs to the park and they’ll play with other dogs all day. The problem is that other dogs generally try to “test” them, especially my male. Because of this I no longer take him to the dog park. Oh, and even though BG and I have had our differences on this board the guy knows his dogs. People need to listen when he talks about dogs.[/quote]

You got some bullshit pits then. Pitbulls were bred starting in the 1880’s (in America) for fighting, plain and simple. They should have ZERO aggression toward humans because they were bred to be able to be pulled out of the ring in the middle of a fight by its owner or a referee without turning on the human. Any pitbull that does not meet this standard is an example of poor breeding. In the past, any pitbull that EVER showed aggression toward a human, especially unprovoked aggression, was shot on sight so that it would not contaminate the breed.

I’ve had three pitbulls, all of whom came from professional breeders who breed the dogs for temperament and conformation and looks, meaning that the dogs are bred to meet AKC and/or UKC standards. I’m very familiar with Razor’s Edge breeders and dogs. They’re bullshit dogs, period. They aren’t bred for anything other than the typical bully look and as a result factors like temperament, conformity and intelligence are cast aside. Their dogs don’t even approach the ideal look and temperament of a real pitbull. This is a link to a great breeder down in Florida that I got my current dog from. They breed for show, not rap videos like Razor’s Edge, and as a result their dogs are bred primarily for temperament and looks. My puppy is from the first pair of dogs shown (Steel and Blaze).

http://www.dogdayskennel.com/Available_Puppies_Page.htm[/quote]

I don’t give a fuck what you consider bullshit or not, 'cause you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. Pits were bred in ENGLAND, and were used for a variety of things. Yes, fighting was one of them. But, when they were shipped over they were used mostly as farm dogs, hence the “critter gitter” label. The apbt was actually Americas dog and was used as the face for patriotism during WW1. And, if you did a little more research instead of talking out of your fucking ass you’d realize that Razors Edge are actually bred for temperment and intelligence, as well as the traditional bully look. And, once again, if you’d read I mentioned more than once how awesome my dogs are around people and other animals. [/quote]

Well, this is not entirely true and it depends on whose stories you want to believe. The Irish likely combined the bull and terrier and the APBT we know today is most certainly a cross although some will argue the apbt is the original bulldog bred smaller. However, that does not explain the decidedly terrier traits you can plainly see in the modern day APBT. When they were first brought here, they were most certainly used mainly for fighting with Irish immigrants and others from the region doing with them what they did back home. The farm dogs you refer to were most certainly bulldog variations and the foundation for the american bulldog and its variants. Yes, the APBT was America’s dog (sadly, “WAS”) and Petey from the Little Rascals was actually the direct descendant from a fighting dog (won something like 15 matches).
[/quote]

Man, you do know your dogs. I have an OLD book breaking down the lineage of pits. It’s really interesting. It also echoes what’s been said. Do you have any experience with Bull terriers [Spud Mckenzies]? I’ve only spent time with a couple but they’re an impressive breed.

222

720×540 136 KB

lol @ the person who said the average weight of a rottweiler is 320 pounds.

Anyway…

Neely is about 200lb, his dad was 265 at his pinnacle. Now, Neely would never harm a fly. He’ll only ever bark if someone comes to the door, or onto our property without being invited.

I guess the question is, what makes a “good” guard dog? To me, it’s a dog that will protect his family without having to resort to force.

There have been stories of mastiffs cornering intruders until their masters return, rather than attacking. To me, that’s a good guard dog.

When Neely lets his guard bark go, he’s shaken items off of counter tops, lol.

223

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
So… A razor’s edge is a “show” dog then?

I mean, you get it to say you have a pit, but it isn’t ‘really’ a pit?

The insurance rates still high on it? ;)[/quote]

That’s exactly what it is. The line was started by a guy named Dave Wilson out in Virginia. It’s basically years and years of breeding to bring out certain genetic characteristics to get a desired look, like big head, short muzzles, low at the withers, super muscular, etc… And, it is pit but it’s mixed with cousin breeds as well.

Haha, yes it is. In the eyes of everyone not involved with the breed it’s a straight pit.[/quote]

yeah most of what I have breed or owned were out of STP kennels, out of lukane, gr ch buck, nigel. had a female out of bad rosemary, so mainly patrick boyle bloodlines.

They were great for the family and awesome at keeping vermin of the property. [/quote]

I know of the Lukane dog personally. [/quote]

Yeah I had a male out if him, very similar look, style and temperment.

[/quote]

I knew the owner at the time.[/quote]

one of the STP guys, the one that works with dutch shepards now too. I used to purchase and breed almost of my pits through them in one way or another.

224

One time, when I was in 3rd grade, there had been an ice storm and I was walking home from school…

When I reached a neighbor’s house, Skinnard, the St.Bernard, decided he would come out and help the tiny ass child across the street. He grabbed me by my arm and dragged me across the icy road and to my house. He then proceeded to wait until I got up and went into my house as I screamed and cried for my Mom.

I’ve never known what to make of this. Semi-related story ftw.

225

Great F’ing thread. Lots of interesting stuff on here! We’re thinking of getting a dog for my in-laws and this was great to read. Thanks everyone.

226

[quote]ether_bunny wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]DragnCarry wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And you dog owners that spout about ALPHA this and PACK that don’t kid yourselves - no dominant dog sees a child as alpha. [/quote]

I bought a remote controlled food dispenser once. My dogs were very loyal to this remote controlled food dispenser. It was definitely the ALPHA robot, I was starting to worry about a robot uprising in my own home. I always made sure the robot went through doorways after me and wasn’t allowed on the couch, that kept me at the top of the pack.
[/quote]

that is why it is better to just teach dominant high drive protection dogs to simply not interact with children. that is how my donavan is, our pit seriously thinks he is one of the kids. but they serve two different purposes. [/quote]

Is this really much of a problem? Almost all of my experience is with sheep dogs. I just can’t conceive of one biting a kid. I seem to recall my little brother poking one with a stick with no problem. It’s kind of funny, but if you ever watch a border collie with small children, they’ll herd them like sheep. They just run up next to the kid and give him a nudge towards the center. Next thing you know, all the kids at the party are playing in the middle of the yard.
Also, they’re working dogs here, and I always suspect that makes a happier dog. Between that and a square mile to chase squirrels. You get the point.

We breed collies with kelpies here. Gives them quite a bit more brown than even tri-colors, they seem to have broader shoulders (not sure where that comes from, god only knows what’s in a sheepdog–kelpies especially) and they seem to pick up running along the sheep’s back. They do lose out in the brains department. I used to have a collie/kelpie who’d run into fences while chasing geese–in v-flight overhead.[/quote]
Shit, I’ve been nipped by kelpies before. Never had a full on bite, but pretty much any cattle dog will nip if not trained thoroughly.

It’s quite interesting. I’d have to agree with with, well everything, TheBodyGuard has said. If people saw what was involved in training a real working dog then they’d be a hell of a lot better informed. They certainly aren’t coddled.
Really, getting a dog that will bite unless someone is being aggressive and the owner isn’t present is just asking for trouble. Basically you’d have to be a professional and have a top notch dog.
A guard dog is firstly a good barker. Ask yourself if you want or need more than that. If you do, do you want a dog that is big enough to be threatening? Do you want a dog that will bite or threaten to bite if someone enters your property? If you want all of that, then you’ll have a guard dog, not a pet, and you better be up to dealing with it.

Kids are a worry too. You need to be around whenever both kids and dog are present until they’re old enough to understand that hurting the dog or going near them with food is as serious as looking down a loaded gun.

227

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]DragnCarry wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And you dog owners that spout about ALPHA this and PACK that don’t kid yourselves - no dominant dog sees a child as alpha. [/quote]

I bought a remote controlled food dispenser once. My dogs were very loyal to this remote controlled food dispenser. It was definitely the ALPHA robot, I was starting to worry about a robot uprising in my own home. I always made sure the robot went through doorways after me and wasn’t allowed on the couch, that kept me at the top of the pack.
[/quote]

that is why it is better to just teach dominant high drive protection dogs to simply not interact with children. that is how my donavan is, our pit seriously thinks he is one of the kids. but they serve two different purposes. [/quote]

I was kidding around. My dogs were “loyal” to the remote controlled food dispenser because it gave them food, same as I do and same as my kids do. Rank is very rarely a problem and truly dominant dogs (a rarity) are probably the safest around your kids of any. Drive is a different story altogether, high drive dogs really need to be trained to a high level and not understanding drive can lead to a lot of problems, particularly where kids are involved.

My dogs have good manners around children, manners are trained. The point I was trying to make was that even a machine can train an animal, dominance is not training.

There is a YouTube video of a 7 year old girl completing a Schutzhund routine with a very high drive working-line GSD. The routine isn’t bad either, but I doubt the dog sees her as any sort of “alpha”.

228

Normal canine behavior. Dogs will tend to side with the stronger party. It has been known to happen with working service dogs who have not been trained appropriately (not given enough confidence, they just attack because they fear what might happen to them if they don’t).

229

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]ether_bunny wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]DragnCarry wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And you dog owners that spout about ALPHA this and PACK that don’t kid yourselves - no dominant dog sees a child as alpha. [/quote]

I bought a remote controlled food dispenser once. My dogs were very loyal to this remote controlled food dispenser. It was definitely the ALPHA robot, I was starting to worry about a robot uprising in my own home. I always made sure the robot went through doorways after me and wasn’t allowed on the couch, that kept me at the top of the pack.
[/quote]

that is why it is better to just teach dominant high drive protection dogs to simply not interact with children. that is how my donavan is, our pit seriously thinks he is one of the kids. but they serve two different purposes. [/quote]

Is this really much of a problem? Almost all of my experience is with sheep dogs. I just can’t conceive of one biting a kid. I seem to recall my little brother poking one with a stick with no problem. It’s kind of funny, but if you ever watch a border collie with small children, they’ll herd them like sheep. They just run up next to the kid and give him a nudge towards the center. Next thing you know, all the kids at the party are playing in the middle of the yard.
Also, they’re working dogs here, and I always suspect that makes a happier dog. Between that and a square mile to chase squirrels. You get the point.

We breed collies with kelpies here. Gives them quite a bit more brown than even tri-colors, they seem to have broader shoulders (not sure where that comes from, god only knows what’s in a sheepdog–kelpies especially) and they seem to pick up running along the sheep’s back. They do lose out in the brains department. I used to have a collie/kelpie who’d run into fences while chasing geese–in v-flight overhead.[/quote]

That kind of proved my point, your dogs are displaying behavior of dominance over the children in the way it is done in their social structure.

My protection dog views the children as neutral, [/quote]

He’s right, the shouldering up along side a child or human and “herding” it is displaying dominance over the child in the exact same manner the dog dominates and herds cattle. It should give you a clear glimpse inside the mind of a dog.

It doesn’t mean the dog will eventually attack the child some day, mo more than you’d expect a herding dog to harm cattle/sheep, but it should illustrate for you how the dog views a child. If a dog tried to herd me, I’d kick its ass. And you should not tolerate the dog herding your children. [/quote]

See, actually, I disagree with you. And while I won’t claim any experience at training guard dogs, or pitbulls (other than the aforementioned complaints about having to put them down for killing sheep.). But I do have quite a bit of experience raising, training, and, when I was younger, competing sheep dogs (no, not award winning, but not bottom of the pack either).

Border Collies are very, very smart dogs. I mean how many dogs are trainable to differentiate left and right? I only suspect this for breeds such as poms, poodles, or rottweilers, but I know border collies know the difference between sheep and children. And they are smart enough to know any human is higher in the barking order than them. You’re making the assumption the dog will only respect the alpha of a pack. They herd children because it’s fun, and it’s part of their play. I’d like to have some fantasy it is protective behavior, and to make it easier to watch their flock, but honestly, I’m pretty sure it’s just play to them. They’re very OCD dogs. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were counting sheep, fence posts, or wish they had thumbs in order to wash their hands hundreds of times during the day. But if you’re thinking they herd children as some sign of dominance, I suspect that’s more a freudian reflection upon yourself.

I’ve never owned a pure kelpie. But you did point out something. Cattle dogs nip.
Sheep dogs don’t. They don’t have to. You’ll also notice they herd animals different. There is no threat of being kicked by a sheep, and the dog doesn’t have to be cautious when getting in close.

Now, talking about true genius dogs? I’ve been lucky enough to have a couple of dogs smart enough to switch styles depending on whether they were herding sheep or cattle.

230

[quote]ether_bunny wrote:
Border Collies are very, very smart dogs. I mean how many dogs are trainable to differentiate left and right? [/quote]

We also do it with gun-dogs and it’s being used in agility a lot these days. I taught a whole class of different breeds to do it in about 20 minutes total of training time over 4 weeks. Most breeds turn out to be smarter than we give them credit for if we let them figure stuff out without fear of getting it wrong.

Out of anyone here, I don’t think BG is making that assumption. That said, I agree with you and, whilst I discourage herding anything other than livestock (under direction) and gym balls, I don’t think it is a dominance “problem” so much as a misplaced instinct.

231

[quote]DragnCarry wrote:

[quote]ether_bunny wrote:
Border Collies are very, very smart dogs. I mean how many dogs are trainable to differentiate left and right? [/quote]

We also do it with gun-dogs and it’s being used in agility a lot these days. I taught a whole class of different breeds to do it in about 20 minutes total of training time over 4 weeks. Most breeds turn out to be smarter than we give them credit for if we let them figure stuff out without fear of getting it wrong.

Out of anyone here, I don’t think BG is making that assumption. That said, I agree with you and, whilst I discourage herding anything other than livestock (under direction) and gym balls, I don’t think it is a dominance “problem” so much as a misplaced instinct.
[/quote]

one question and I will get off the dominance kick, does you dog try to herd you?

232

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]DragnCarry wrote:

[quote]ether_bunny wrote:
Border Collies are very, very smart dogs. I mean how many dogs are trainable to differentiate left and right? [/quote]

We also do it with gun-dogs and it’s being used in agility a lot these days. I taught a whole class of different breeds to do it in about 20 minutes total of training time over 4 weeks. Most breeds turn out to be smarter than we give them credit for if we let them figure stuff out without fear of getting it wrong.

Out of anyone here, I don’t think BG is making that assumption. That said, I agree with you and, whilst I discourage herding anything other than livestock (under direction) and gym balls, I don’t think it is a dominance “problem” so much as a misplaced instinct.
[/quote]

one question and I will get off the dominance kick, does you dog try to herd you?[/quote]

Me? No. My dog is not from herding lines, she is from East German lines.

And sorry if I’ve offended anyone by not sharing the same opinions on dominance. It’s hard not to tread on a few toes and I don’t mean to, I’ve just been over this ground so many times myself. You can apply a different theory to just about any situation and come up with a satisfactory but incomplete answer. If a dog herds a person is he trying to control that person? Yes. So could we call that dominance? Yes. If we let him do it will he start owning your ass? Maybe, it depends. One of my gundogs, a dog with a very sweet and highly biddable disposition, noticed a toddler wandering towards the road at the park and herded the child back. Not really a problem behavior.

If I took off the “pack theory filter” and put on the “behaviourism filter” I could come up with a different explanation that seems equally plausible.

However, when it comes to modifying the behaviour, the pack theory explanation really starts to fall apart. It just isn’t plausible. “My dog herds me what should I do?” “Pin him down and make him submit”. OK, it might work (or you might screw a perfectly good dog up). But there are lots of ways to change behaviour that don’t look anything like a display of dominance. You can teach a dog who herds people to heel for them instead, no punishment at all, no dominance rituals. I suppose you do become more dominant because the dog is more obedient to you? Like I said, you can look at it any which way.

Anyway, I mentioned a video earlier. It’s worth watching if you’re interested in working dogs and have kids. It’s all conditioning:

And here is the protection routine:

233

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]DragnCarry wrote:

[quote]ether_bunny wrote:
Border Collies are very, very smart dogs. I mean how many dogs are trainable to differentiate left and right? [/quote]

We also do it with gun-dogs and it’s being used in agility a lot these days. I taught a whole class of different breeds to do it in about 20 minutes total of training time over 4 weeks. Most breeds turn out to be smarter than we give them credit for if we let them figure stuff out without fear of getting it wrong.

Out of anyone here, I don’t think BG is making that assumption. That said, I agree with you and, whilst I discourage herding anything other than livestock (under direction) and gym balls, I don’t think it is a dominance “problem” so much as a misplaced instinct.
[/quote]

one question and I will get off the dominance kick, does you dog try to herd you?[/quote]

Interesting question. While they won’t do shouldering to adults, they will give you “the eye” during play. So–yes. But it is definatly play behavior.

For that matter, they’ll try to herd cars. I hope they’re not trying to dominate a car.

234

wait what? you are concerned for your mothers safety because people are following her home. this is a issue that requires immediate attention. You think these guys are just gonna wait around for the puppy to grow up and then decide to do something? they will make a move real soon by the looks of it. Forget getting a guard dog, buy her a gun. And yes im being serious.

235

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]jre67t wrote:
If it is just you and mom get an American Pitbull, real loyal and extremely territorial. They are aggressive though. Real smart dogs. Our dog catches rats and possums along with squirrels. There is stigma with pitbulls but if your trying to protect your house its a good stigma to have.[/quote]

If you get a well-bred pitbull, it will never show any aggression toward humans though, so it won’t be an effective guard dog. Dobermans and Rottweilers are bred to respond to a threat to their owners, whether from humans or another animal. A pitbull won’t respond the same way, unless it’s poorly bred and is therefore a bad dog to have around anyways. A well-bred pit will still exhibit aggression toward other animals without being overly aggressive toward other dogs, especially ones that are smaller than it.[/quote]

I’m sorry, but this is simply not true. How many of y’all that are commenting on pits have 'em or have spent significant time around the breed? I have 3 Razors Edge pits and they are all as loyal, loving and goofy as can be. They love people and other animals, but make no mistake if someone were to step to me or my family or try and get where they’re not wanted everyone of my dogs would [and have] take action. You do need to expose pits to other breeds early 'cause their heritage is as farm dogs. They’re critter getters at heart and if they’re not used to small dogs a rat terrier just looks like a rat. And for the record, I can take all of my dogs to the park and they’ll play with other dogs all day. The problem is that other dogs generally try to “test” them, especially my male. Because of this I no longer take him to the dog park. Oh, and even though BG and I have had our differences on this board the guy knows his dogs. People need to listen when he talks about dogs.[/quote]

You got some bullshit pits then. Pitbulls were bred starting in the 1880’s (in America) for fighting, plain and simple. They should have ZERO aggression toward humans because they were bred to be able to be pulled out of the ring in the middle of a fight by its owner or a referee without turning on the human. Any pitbull that does not meet this standard is an example of poor breeding. In the past, any pitbull that EVER showed aggression toward a human, especially unprovoked aggression, was shot on sight so that it would not contaminate the breed.

I’ve had three pitbulls, all of whom came from professional breeders who breed the dogs for temperament and conformation and looks, meaning that the dogs are bred to meet AKC and/or UKC standards. I’m very familiar with Razor’s Edge breeders and dogs. They’re bullshit dogs, period. They aren’t bred for anything other than the typical bully look and as a result factors like temperament, conformity and intelligence are cast aside. Their dogs don’t even approach the ideal look and temperament of a real pitbull. This is a link to a great breeder down in Florida that I got my current dog from. They breed for show, not rap videos like Razor’s Edge, and as a result their dogs are bred primarily for temperament and looks. My puppy is from the first pair of dogs shown (Steel and Blaze).

http://www.dogdayskennel.com/Available_Puppies_Page.htm[/quote]

I don’t give a fuck what you consider bullshit or not, 'cause you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. Pits were bred in ENGLAND, and were used for a variety of things. Yes, fighting was one of them. But, when they were shipped over they were used mostly as farm dogs, hence the “critter gitter” label. The apbt was actually Americas dog and was used as the face for patriotism during WW1. And, if you did a little more research instead of talking out of your fucking ass you’d realize that Razors Edge are actually bred for temperment and intelligence, as well as the traditional bully look. And, once again, if you’d read I mentioned more than once how awesome my dogs are around people and other animals. [/quote]

I agree with DB, and your dogs are bully’s not pit bulls, for a representation of an actual pit bull, check out lil bit down below.

I would never put a bully in a 30 with a APBT, they’ll end up chewed up and spit out. I’ve had the unfortunate experience of seeing two bully’s get in a fight. They lasted all of four minutes before they ran out of air. (FYI: Real dog fights last around :45 - 1:30hrs)

[photo]25216[/photo][/quote]

LOL. A real dog fight can be over quite quickly or it can drag on for more than 1:30. There is no rule. But yes, a bully pit, and any other breed for that matter, is done just as soon as it gets tired or, as soon as it gets back what it gives out. [/quote]

I was talking about average fights, not when a dog won’t scratch or something along those lines.

236

Back when I was in HS and running cross country, we ran by this house often. Up on a hill with a big front yard. Two big dobermans would run down to the edge of the road barking at us but would not come off the lawn. This was in 94-97 so I believe it was before invisible fencing was commonly used or possibly even invented. But these dogs were intimidating as all hell. I’d say a pair of Dobermans would serve well as a deterent.

V

237


I’m a fan of American bulldogs, great dog.

238

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]jre67t wrote:
If it is just you and mom get an American Pitbull, real loyal and extremely territorial. They are aggressive though. Real smart dogs. Our dog catches rats and possums along with squirrels. There is stigma with pitbulls but if your trying to protect your house its a good stigma to have.[/quote]

If you get a well-bred pitbull, it will never show any aggression toward humans though, so it won’t be an effective guard dog. Dobermans and Rottweilers are bred to respond to a threat to their owners, whether from humans or another animal. A pitbull won’t respond the same way, unless it’s poorly bred and is therefore a bad dog to have around anyways. A well-bred pit will still exhibit aggression toward other animals without being overly aggressive toward other dogs, especially ones that are smaller than it.[/quote]

I’m sorry, but this is simply not true. How many of y’all that are commenting on pits have 'em or have spent significant time around the breed? I have 3 Razors Edge pits and they are all as loyal, loving and goofy as can be. They love people and other animals, but make no mistake if someone were to step to me or my family or try and get where they’re not wanted everyone of my dogs would [and have] take action. You do need to expose pits to other breeds early 'cause their heritage is as farm dogs. They’re critter getters at heart and if they’re not used to small dogs a rat terrier just looks like a rat. And for the record, I can take all of my dogs to the park and they’ll play with other dogs all day. The problem is that other dogs generally try to “test” them, especially my male. Because of this I no longer take him to the dog park. Oh, and even though BG and I have had our differences on this board the guy knows his dogs. People need to listen when he talks about dogs.[/quote]

You got some bullshit pits then. Pitbulls were bred starting in the 1880’s (in America) for fighting, plain and simple. They should have ZERO aggression toward humans because they were bred to be able to be pulled out of the ring in the middle of a fight by its owner or a referee without turning on the human. Any pitbull that does not meet this standard is an example of poor breeding. In the past, any pitbull that EVER showed aggression toward a human, especially unprovoked aggression, was shot on sight so that it would not contaminate the breed.

I’ve had three pitbulls, all of whom came from professional breeders who breed the dogs for temperament and conformation and looks, meaning that the dogs are bred to meet AKC and/or UKC standards. I’m very familiar with Razor’s Edge breeders and dogs. They’re bullshit dogs, period. They aren’t bred for anything other than the typical bully look and as a result factors like temperament, conformity and intelligence are cast aside. Their dogs don’t even approach the ideal look and temperament of a real pitbull. This is a link to a great breeder down in Florida that I got my current dog from. They breed for show, not rap videos like Razor’s Edge, and as a result their dogs are bred primarily for temperament and looks. My puppy is from the first pair of dogs shown (Steel and Blaze).

http://www.dogdayskennel.com/Available_Puppies_Page.htm[/quote]

I don’t give a fuck what you consider bullshit or not, 'cause you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. Pits were bred in ENGLAND, and were used for a variety of things. Yes, fighting was one of them. But, when they were shipped over they were used mostly as farm dogs, hence the “critter gitter” label. The apbt was actually Americas dog and was used as the face for patriotism during WW1. And, if you did a little more research instead of talking out of your fucking ass you’d realize that Razors Edge are actually bred for temperment and intelligence, as well as the traditional bully look. And, once again, if you’d read I mentioned more than once how awesome my dogs are around people and other animals. [/quote]

I agree with DB, and your dogs are bully’s not pit bulls, for a representation of an actual pit bull, check out lil bit down below.

I would never put a bully in a 30 with a APBT, they’ll end up chewed up and spit out. I’ve had the unfortunate experience of seeing two bully’s get in a fight. They lasted all of four minutes before they ran out of air. (FYI: Real dog fights last around :45 - 1:30hrs)

[photo]25216[/photo][/quote]

LOL. A real dog fight can be over quite quickly or it can drag on for more than 1:30. There is no rule. But yes, a bully pit, and any other breed for that matter, is done just as soon as it gets tired or, as soon as it gets back what it gives out. [/quote]

I was talking about average fights, not when a dog won’t scratch or something along those lines.[/quote]

Well, even most curs will give 30 minutes. I was referring to those rare dogs that can be very destructive, very quickly. And of course, I am referring to historical publicized accounts of such dogs that have occurred from time to time in our favored bloodlines.

239

[quote]ether_bunny wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]ether_bunny wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]DragnCarry wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And you dog owners that spout about ALPHA this and PACK that don’t kid yourselves - no dominant dog sees a child as alpha. [/quote]

I bought a remote controlled food dispenser once. My dogs were very loyal to this remote controlled food dispenser. It was definitely the ALPHA robot, I was starting to worry about a robot uprising in my own home. I always made sure the robot went through doorways after me and wasn’t allowed on the couch, that kept me at the top of the pack.
[/quote]

that is why it is better to just teach dominant high drive protection dogs to simply not interact with children. that is how my donavan is, our pit seriously thinks he is one of the kids. but they serve two different purposes. [/quote]

Is this really much of a problem? Almost all of my experience is with sheep dogs. I just can’t conceive of one biting a kid. I seem to recall my little brother poking one with a stick with no problem. It’s kind of funny, but if you ever watch a border collie with small children, they’ll herd them like sheep. They just run up next to the kid and give him a nudge towards the center. Next thing you know, all the kids at the party are playing in the middle of the yard.
Also, they’re working dogs here, and I always suspect that makes a happier dog. Between that and a square mile to chase squirrels. You get the point.

We breed collies with kelpies here. Gives them quite a bit more brown than even tri-colors, they seem to have broader shoulders (not sure where that comes from, god only knows what’s in a sheepdog–kelpies especially) and they seem to pick up running along the sheep’s back. They do lose out in the brains department. I used to have a collie/kelpie who’d run into fences while chasing geese–in v-flight overhead.[/quote]

That kind of proved my point, your dogs are displaying behavior of dominance over the children in the way it is done in their social structure.

My protection dog views the children as neutral, [/quote]

He’s right, the shouldering up along side a child or human and “herding” it is displaying dominance over the child in the exact same manner the dog dominates and herds cattle. It should give you a clear glimpse inside the mind of a dog.

It doesn’t mean the dog will eventually attack the child some day, mo more than you’d expect a herding dog to harm cattle/sheep, but it should illustrate for you how the dog views a child. If a dog tried to herd me, I’d kick its ass. And you should not tolerate the dog herding your children. [/quote]

See, actually, I disagree with you. And while I won’t claim any experience at training guard dogs, or pitbulls (other than the aforementioned complaints about having to put them down for killing sheep.). But I do have quite a bit of experience raising, training, and, when I was younger, competing sheep dogs (no, not award winning, but not bottom of the pack either).

Border Collies are very, very smart dogs. I mean how many dogs are trainable to differentiate left and right? I only suspect this for breeds such as poms, poodles, or rottweilers, but I know border collies know the difference between sheep and children. And they are smart enough to know any human is higher in the barking order than them. You’re making the assumption the dog will only respect the alpha of a pack. They herd children because it’s fun, and it’s part of their play. I’d like to have some fantasy it is protective behavior, and to make it easier to watch their flock, but honestly, I’m pretty sure it’s just play to them. They’re very OCD dogs. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were counting sheep, fence posts, or wish they had thumbs in order to wash their hands hundreds of times during the day. But if you’re thinking they herd children as some sign of dominance, I suspect that’s more a freudian reflection upon yourself.

I’ve never owned a pure kelpie. But you did point out something. Cattle dogs nip.
Sheep dogs don’t. They don’t have to. You’ll also notice they herd animals different. There is no threat of being kicked by a sheep, and the dog doesn’t have to be cautious when getting in close.

Now, talking about true genius dogs? I’ve been lucky enough to have a couple of dogs smart enough to switch styles depending on whether they were herding sheep or cattle.[/quote]

I’m not sure of the reason for your tone above, but I’ll stick to the subject instead of taking time to be offended, leaving aside your pointless “freudian” reference.

I don’t have much use for nomenclature or getting hung up on such. The fact remains, just like bodybuilding and weightlifting, a number of different approaches work, we use different terms for them and, at the end of the day, we aren’t 100% why it works. Therefore, I don’t like to get hung up on “dominance, drive, alpha, etc.”. That said, onto your reply…

Yes, border collies are among the “smartest” (I’d say tractable, as “smart” to me is an anthropomorphic term and I still think at the end of the day, a canine - any canine, is not “smart” or imbued with human traits) or all dogs, if not the most tractable. No argument there. I’m not sure I agree with you about them being “smart” to differentiate human from animal only because you’re on that slippery anthropomorphic slope again and you’re endowing an animal with human-like skill to discriminate, instead of animal-like behaviors. At the end of the day, is the disagreement a meaningful one? In the case of a border collie, probably not as a horrific attack is probably not within their ability. Could they nip a child and forever scar someone? Yes.

I make no assumptions about your statement of respecting the “alpha” of the pack and I’m not a big fan of this alpha talk, and I don’t liken domesticated canines to wolves. And, even if there was merit to the alpha argument and it’s theories, the average pet owner, including families thereof (children) are ill equipped to be “alpha”. Does the alpha approach work? Yes; as I said earlier, lots of approaches “work”. Does it backfire? Absolutely. So, we’re clear I’m not coming from an opinion about “alpha” and such.

I’m sorry, but now getting to your comment about dominance, I cannot ignore. What’s with the fruedian reference? A dog does not have to engage in dangerous behavior to display “dominance”. However you care to characterize the behavior, it is an attempt, by a dog, to control a human - and I will reject that and rebuke it all day long, whether you want to refer to it as “dominance”, “play”, “OCD” or, as DragnCarry probably best described it (kindest), “misdirected behavior or instinct” (if I recall correctly).

So it matters not to me how we characterize or label the behavior, I think it’s unacceptable. Would it result in some harm? Probably not, but that’s a slippery slope, especially with dogs and children. The real danger lies within the average pet owner, with dogs that are capable of harm, and the incremental intrusions that occur between man and dog that the pet owner is unaware of. The average owner in such an example is cultivating a problem that one day, may be a problem, unlike a relatively harmless border collie following its instinct.

I rambled a bit - difficulty concentrating lately (neck / back pain!), but I think there is a coherent point there somewhere :wink: As for Freud, my brother is a Professor of Psychology at an Ivy League School. If in the future I feel the need for evaluation (and it may very well come to that), I’ll consult with him first, and consult with you only if I want some border collie insight :slight_smile: Fair enough?

240

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

I’m not sure of the reason for your tone above, but I’ll stick to the subject instead of taking time to be offended, leaving aside your pointless “freudian” reference.

I don’t have much use for nomenclature or getting hung up on such. The fact remains, just like bodybuilding and weightlifting, a number of different approaches work, we use different terms for them and, at the end of the day, we aren’t 100% why it works. Therefore, I don’t like to get hung up on “dominance, drive, alpha, etc.”. That said, onto your reply…

Yes, border collies are among the “smartest” (I’d say tractable, as “smart” to me is an anthropomorphic term and I still think at the end of the day, a canine - any canine, is not “smart” or imbued with human traits) or all dogs, if not the most tractable. No argument there. I’m not sure I agree with you about them being “smart” to differentiate human from animal only because you’re on that slippery anthropomorphic slope again and you’re endowing an animal with human-like skill to discriminate, instead of animal-like behaviors. At the end of the day, is the disagreement a meaningful one? In the case of a border collie, probably not as a horrific attack is probably not within their ability. Could they nip a child and forever scar someone? Yes.

I make no assumptions about your statement of respecting the “alpha” of the pack and I’m not a big fan of this alpha talk, and I don’t liken domesticated canines to wolves. And, even if there was merit to the alpha argument and it’s theories, the average pet owner, including families thereof (children) are ill equipped to be “alpha”. Does the alpha approach work? Yes; as I said earlier, lots of approaches “work”. Does it backfire? Absolutely. So, we’re clear I’m not coming from an opinion about “alpha” and such.

I’m sorry, but now getting to your comment about dominance, I cannot ignore. What’s with the fruedian reference? A dog does not have to engage in dangerous behavior to display “dominance”. However you care to characterize the behavior, it is an attempt, by a dog, to control a human - and I will reject that and rebuke it all day long, whether you want to refer to it as “dominance”, “play”, “OCD” or, as DragnCarry probably best described it (kindest), “misdirected behavior or instinct” (if I recall correctly).

So it matters not to me how we characterize or label the behavior, I think it’s unacceptable. Would it result in some harm? Probably not, but that’s a slippery slope, especially with dogs and children. The real danger lies within the average pet owner, with dogs that are capable of harm, and the incremental intrusions that occur between man and dog that the pet owner is unaware of. The average owner in such an example is cultivating a problem that one day, may be a problem, unlike a relatively harmless border collie following its instinct.

I rambled a bit - difficulty concentrating lately (neck / back pain!), but I think there is a coherent point there somewhere :wink: As for Freud, my brother is a Professor of Psychology at an Ivy League School. If in the future I feel the need for evaluation (and it may very well come to that), I’ll consult with him first, and consult with you only if I want some border collie insight :slight_smile: Fair enough?[/quote]

Yeah, that freudian thing did come out more of a slight than I intended. Was meant to be a dig, not an insult. Thank you for taking it with such good humor.
What I think I was trying to say, is, conformation bias, in seeing herding instinct as establishing barking order.

Let me say, I’m totally on board with you, over acting as alpha to train dogs. Well trained dogs do have one owner.

Our sheepdogs will (and I think should, but that’s because I work with sheepdogs, and not guard, rescue, or police dogs) take orders from other people, but if there’s five different people yelling commands, they should ignore everyone else. (In practice, that’d be horribly cruel to do to a breed that just wants to make everybody happy.)

But I totally disagree with you about herding as demonstrating dominance. Now, if the dog started humping a leg or growling or even taking a crap at my feet, yeah. But herding?

http://survivingtheworld.net/Lesson777.html