Going Above 4500 Cals as a 'Hardgainer'

Hey guys my first post here :smiley:

I’ve been working out for a long time now recently i discovered I jus wasnt eating anywhere near enough for my nutso metabolism, Ive upped my calories to around 4500 and seem to be growing again thing is its getting real hard to eat much more than what I allready take in. I don’t have the biggest of appetites and i seem to need absurd amounts of calories lol…

I can make 4.5k a day its hard but doable I could probably get 5k aswell but I’m not sure after that how Im gonna eat even more.

Should I just add ice cream, whole milk and eat a jar of PB a day? lol

a typical day for me looks like:

Breakfast:
toast/honey
Milk/whey
olive oil
flax oil

2nd breakfast
usually just down a high cal shake here
(milk,whey,oats,pb,Oo)

lunch
burgers/wholemeal baps
peanut butter
milk

high cal shake

Dinner:
varies usually some steak/lean beef combo with some rice
wash it down with milk

Before bed
cassein
milk
olive oil/flax

on workout days ill chuck an extra shake in between breakfast and 2nd breakfast as post workout shake juice/whey/maltodextrin/bannans.

any ideas how i can up calorie intake without upping the actual volume? - Which im no doubt going to need to do in the not so distant future.

Im no expert, but it seems like your breakfast is a little small. I would try adding a couple eggs to it if you can. Also, you don’t seem to eat any veggies/fruit. Add some.

I’m sure other more knowledgeable people will drop their comments, but this is just what I noticed.

Welcome to T-Nation.

yea trouble is when i get up my apetite is by far at its worst, honestly i dont have any room for veg half the time, I get some in the form of beans in a chilley con carne mix and some from fruit from fruit juice and bannas… I really dont have alot more room in my stomach or I would. I do take a multi vit a day also.

Alright, if your appitite is bad when you get up (mine is too), eat your meal like you normally do, then wait 45 min to an hour and try to eat another small (or big if you can stomach it) meal. You should be able to eat again by the time the second meal comes. Some people just can’t eat much when they first wake up.

One of the first things I ad to learn was not to drink my calories because it is far too easy to take a lot of calories in that way.

Maybe you should do the opposite and start to drink a lot of calorie dense beverages?

Good idea might try that :slight_smile:

I really hope my apetite picks up though or Im not going to progress much further than where Im at now. Unless i superdose PB and ice cream LOL…

[quote]orion wrote:
One of the first things I ad to learn was not to drink my calories because it is far too easy to take a lot of calories in that way.

Maybe you should do the opposite and start to drink a lot of calorie dense beverages?

[/quote]

yea thats what ive been doing I drink alot of milk I could switch to whole milk though that would add a few more calories here and there. That and natural fruit juice is pretty much all I drink…

[quote]anab0lic wrote:
orion wrote:
One of the first things I ad to learn was not to drink my calories because it is far too easy to take a lot of calories in that way.

Maybe you should do the opposite and start to drink a lot of calorie dense beverages?

yea thats what ive been doing I drink alot of milk I could switch to whole milk though that would add a few more calories here and there. That and natural fruit juice is pretty much all I drink…

[/quote]

You are drinking skimmed milk and have trouble gaining weight?

I was thinking along the lines of chocolate milk. With peanut butter.

[quote]orion wrote:
anab0lic wrote:
orion wrote:
One of the first things I ad to learn was not to drink my calories because it is far too easy to take a lot of calories in that way.

Maybe you should do the opposite and start to drink a lot of calorie dense beverages?

yea thats what ive been doing I drink alot of milk I could switch to whole milk though that would add a few more calories here and there. That and natural fruit juice is pretty much all I drink…

You are drinking skimmed milk and have trouble gaining weight?

I was thinking along the lines of chocolate milk. With peanut butter.

[/quote]

I drink semi skimmed milk I dont know where your from if your from the US I think its called 2% there? It’s 100cals per glass - about 200-250 in a shake. I actually had some choc milk today I added couple spoons of nesquick - tasted so good. Not entirely sure how calorie dense that is though I shoudl really check :stuck_out_tongue:

fuck skim and 2% lol. drink whole milk. I drink 4-5 glasses a day and 600-750 more cals are added

How many hours/day are u awake?

Cause… you could just… eat… 8 times a day… like i do.

P.S. Almonds are your friends

Ya, almonds are essential, as well as mega shakes.

Also, I doubt that is 4500 cals.

You still should make rooms for vegetables. Center your meals around meat and vegetables, and drink shakes filled with whole milk/eggs/oats/peanutbutter/olive oil/etc.

(fatty) beef: it’s what’s for dinner (and lunch and breakfast).

[quote]anab0lic wrote:
Hey guys my first post here :smiley:

I’ve been working out for a long time now recently i discovered I jus wasnt eating anywhere near enough for my nutso metabolism, Ive upped my calories to around 4500 and seem to be growing again thing is its getting real hard to eat much more than what I allready take in. I don’t have the biggest of appetites and i seem to need absurd amounts of calories lol…

I can make 4.5k a day its hard but doable I could probably get 5k aswell but I’m not sure after that how Im gonna eat even more.

Should I just add ice cream, whole milk and eat a jar of PB a day? lol

a typical day for me looks like:

Breakfast:
toast/honey
Milk/whey
olive oil
flax oil

2nd breakfast
usually just down a high cal shake here
(milk,whey,oats,pb,Oo)

lunch
burgers/wholemeal baps
peanut butter
milk

high cal shake

Dinner:
varies usually some steak/lean beef combo with some rice
wash it down with milk

Before bed
cassein
milk
olive oil/flax

on workout days ill chuck an extra shake in between breakfast and 2nd breakfast as post workout shake juice/whey/maltodextrin/bannans.

any ideas how i can up calorie intake without upping the actual volume? - Which im no doubt going to need to do in the not so distant future.
[/quote]

I don’t know if your problem has as much to do with intake as it does with absorption. Have you done the acid test?
Have you tried a 5 day glutamine load? If your not absorbing nutrients properly you are wasting money on food and supplements and it won’t matter what you eat.

I’m in the same boat as you currently - I’m about to up my cals to 4500, and have no appetite for doing so.

Ditch that 2% milk for sure, drinking whole milk is a lot easier.

You didn’t specify how much olive oil you’re drinking - but a shot of olive/coconut oil is about 360 calories and I can usually gulp down two with a cup of milk before my stomach will kill me.

Burritos rule - if you have a Chipotle nearby it’s really easy to get a pretty healthy (and calorie-full) burrito from them. Otherwise, making your own (loaded with avocado) works as well.

Also, you didn’t mention during workouts. My stomach can’t tolerate protein shakes, but I usually bring a banana with me (time is calories!)

[quote]laroyal wrote:
I don’t know if your problem has as much to do with intake as it does with absorption. Have you done the acid test?

Have you tried a 5 day glutamine load? If your not absorbing nutrients properly you are wasting money on food and supplements and it won’t matter what you eat.

[/quote]

I feel like a total noob for asking, but could you explain more?

No problem at all, I am still learning things everyday myself! That being said a 5 day load of 80g Glutamine/ day will repair gut lining and improve food nutrient absorption. When weight gains stall out this can be very helpful. Dont take it all at once, spread it out.

Er, I meant the acid test; I have no idea what that is.

Gotcha:-) The acid test as described by Charles Poliquin is as follows:

The Acid Test

Hydrochloric acid presents a few dilemmas for those of us seeking better supplements on a daily basis.

On one hand, it must be handled with appropriate safety precautions because it is a highly corrosive liquid. It is used in various industrial applications including leather manufacturing and PVC plastic production, as well as the removal of rust from iron and steel.1

Of course another great use for hydrochloric acid, or HCl, is to help us digest our food. Our bodies are protected from this corrosive acid by a mucosal barrier in our GI tracts. Many times when people think they have too much acid, they actually have too little barrier and not enough acid. Yes, this acid is a good thing.

Acid is one of the main things that help us to break down those big forkfuls of food into useable nutrients. Despite the popularity of acid-neutralizing and acid-blocking drugs, stomach acid is crucial not only to health, but also to achieving optimal function.

When you block acid, you limit nutrient absorption and create an environment that is actually favorable to disease. Even if you don�??t use these drugs, studies dating back over 70 years show that our ability to secrete acid decreases as we age.2-4

Having appropriate acid levels is step one. Before you start analyzing your percentage of fat, carbohydrates and protein intake, make sure your acid level is good. Before you start buying expensive supplements, make sure your acid level is good.

Before you start analyzing your sets, reps, tempo and frequency, make sure your acid level is good. If you can�??t break down your muscle-building nutrients, you�??re putting in a lot of money and hard work and not getting the most from them. Again, it is step one.

Testing acid levels

Fortunately, this is easy to test and easy to fix. Very rarely can one put in so little effort for so much return. In order to test, I like to use a method recommended by Drs. Michael Murray and Joe Pizzorno, NDs.

In the middle of your next solid meal, take one capsule of Digestzyme (200 mg HCL.) Continue to increase the dose by one capsule at each subsequent meal until you can feel warmth in your stomach. DO NOT EXCEED SEVEN CAPSULES.

Once you�??ve determined the dose that produces a warm sensation, you now know that similar sized meals require one less tablet than that dose. You have now determined how much acid your body should be producing on its own, but isn�??t. (i.e. the dose that you take with every meal.)

Smaller meals might require less and larger meals might require more.5 You should immediately notice changes like a decrease in bloating, belching, and less indigestion.

This one little change to your program can have an incredible impact. Protein that never made it to your muscles is suddenly getting broken down for use. Carbohydrates that could have given you energy are now being digested and utilized.

Healthy fats that were needed to improve the integrity of your cellular membranes finally have a chance. Expensive supplements that used to just �??pass�?? on by, now get dissolved and released into your system.

Beyond that, acid in your stomach can protect you from bacteria, specifically helicobacter pylori, known to be one of the leading causes of ulcers. There are other things to consider, like enzymes, but the first step is having enough acid. It may sound too simple, but it really can make a huge difference.

Findings from the field

Since writing the article Maximize Your Progress with Hydrochloric Acid, and after giving multiple Biosignature seminars, we have found that an alarming group of people are basically generating very little stomach acid for themselves.

Dr. Bob Ratkowski estimates that 98% of the American population is deficient in HCL because of increased stress levels. I would concur with him on that one, as we have found similar results with our PPC s clientele.

Colleagues of mine have found similar results in elite athletes in soccer and rugby. Even young athletes, such as a top college American football player I am training, are turning out to be completely HCL deficient.

Responding to the challenge

In response, we have created a large HCL concentration tablet that contains 650 mg of HCL, 90 mg of pepsin, and 40 mg of Gentian, an herb that stimulates HCL production. The product is called Ultra HCL 2.0.

If you got to the point where seven Digestzymes provokes no reaction in your system, simply replace them with two Ultra HCL 2.0 per meal. The day you encounter a warm sensation, go down to 1 Ultra HCL 2.0 and 2 Digestzymes That dosage will give a total of 1050 mg of HCL instead of 1,300 mg. Over time, simply cut back the total HCL per meal by 200 mg every time you encounter that warm feeling in the stomach.

I am looking forward to seeing you making new progress in the gym. To order Digestzymes, and Ultra HCL 2.0 , please contact beverly@charlespoliquin.comThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it or phone Poliquin Performance at 401 294 2066. Note: Biosignature alumni students can qualify for a wholesale account.

References

Wikipedia Hydrochloric acid - Wikipedia
H.A. Rafsky and M. Weingarten, �??A Study of the Gastric Secretory Response in the Aged,�?? Gastroenterology May (1946): 348-52
D. Davies and T.G. James, �??An Investigation into the Gastric Secretion of a Hundred Normal Persons over the Age of Sixty,�?? Brit J Med i(1930): 1-14
J.H. Baron, �??Studies of Basal and Peak Acid Output with an Augmented Histamine Meal, �?? Gut 3 (1963):136-144
M. Murray and J. Pizzorno, Encyclopedia of Natural Medicine, Rocklin, CA. Prima Publishing, 1998 pps. 134-137

Interesting views on the Glutamine loading, I’d like to try that as a good “cleanse” when my weight stalls (if it ever does).

I eat ~4250kcal/day with precision, and I can testify that this meal plan is not even close to 4500 kcal. And definitely do not cut back on veggies - micronutrients, pH balance and overall health are also very important.