[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Because Adam and Eve knew the truth. And why didn’t he forgive them? Because they deserved to die. That is why. >>>[/quote]Was there an Adam and Ever Chris? If so what sin did they commit to deserve death? If no, then what are you talkin about? I beig very serious.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Question, playing devil’s advocate here, literally I might add:
If the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament are one and the same, why didn’t God just forgive Adam and Eve when He knew they had been tricked by the serphant.
I am sure if the snake said to Eve, “I am really the devil and if you do this you will be banned from Paradise and you and your offspring’s souls will be damned in hell for all eternity.” she might not have eaten the fruit.
She went against God’s wishes, but was lied to by a supernatural being with motives she could never possibly comprehend.[/quote]
Because Adam and Eve knew the truth. And why didn’t he forgive them? Because they deserved to die. That is why. Jesus had to come so that any sacrifice for sin (which all mortal sin is in effect bad enough for you die) would have the grace of forgiveness, because sacrifice itself is worthless since all his G-d’s, so you’re not really sacrificing anything.
Because the Pharisees were being hypocrites, if they caught her red handed in adultery, then where was the man to be stoned as well?
No. He died for the sins of the world, different than forgiving the sins of all mankind.
Because He loved us, he gave us freewill. Adam and Eve choose to put themselves above G-d. That is the basic of all sin is putting yourself above G-d, making yourself G-d.[/quote]
We actually don’t know if he forgave them or not. It doesn’t say, but first, they didn’t take responsibility for their actions, second, they never asked to be forgiven. If they owned up ans asked for forgiveness, they would have had it.
He sounds harsh in to OT, but if you examine more closely he really isn’t, he’s just dealing with harsher people, much harsher.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Because Adam and Eve knew the truth. And why didn’t he forgive them? Because they deserved to die. That is why. >>>[/quote]Was there an Adam and Ever Chris? If so what sin did they commit to deserve death? If no, then what are you talkin about? I beig very serious.
[/quote]
And typing very drunk…
[quote]pat wrote:<<< And typing very drunk…[/quote]LOL! Very fast actually. I don’t drink and don’t type that well.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:Actually, I don’t think the serpent lied to Adam and Eve.[/quote]Half truth, omitting the most important half as usual.[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:I always just kinda wish they’d eaten of the tree of life first.[/quote]It still would’ve been disobedience though.
[/quote]
Sorry, what was half truth? What the serpent told them to get them to eat was true, was it not? They were mislead, but not lied to.
And my comment of the tree of life was just thinking about how it would have turned out differently if man were immortal. Because they weren’t originally forbidden from the tree of life. They were only denied immortality after sinning. I just wonder what would have happened if they’d eaten from the tree of life. I wasn’t saying that it would have made it not a sin.[/quote]I was saying they were told a half truth, not that you were necessarily conveying one if that’s how you understandably took it. They would indeed gain knowledge of evil but they already had knowledge of good and were already like God being created in His image. In a nutshell. I’m at work.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:Actually, I don’t think the serpent lied to Adam and Eve.[/quote]Half truth, omitting the most important half as usual.[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:I always just kinda wish they’d eaten of the tree of life first.[/quote]It still would’ve been disobedience though.
[/quote]
Sorry, what was half truth? What the serpent told them to get them to eat was true, was it not? They were mislead, but not lied to.
And my comment of the tree of life was just thinking about how it would have turned out differently if man were immortal. Because they weren’t originally forbidden from the tree of life. They were only denied immortality after sinning. I just wonder what would have happened if they’d eaten from the tree of life. I wasn’t saying that it would have made it not a sin.[/quote]I was saying they were told a half truth, not that you were necessarily conveying one if that’s how you understandably took it. They would indeed gain knowledge of evil but they already had knowledge of good and were already like God being created in His image. In a nutshell. I’m at work.
[/quote]
But does not god know both good and evil? wouldn’t, at least in a way, knowing evil make us more like god?
I’ve always read it in a way that Adam and Eve in full knowlege of what they were doing chose to sin. If they were outright tricked and lied to, while not even knowing what a lie was, it would make them less culpable, no?
Saying they were lied to, in my eyes removes blame from Adam and Eve because they could not have been prepared to detect a lie.
They chose to disobey, regardless of any action of the serpent.
I’ll have to get ya later DD (the nature boy it now apears huh?) on this. To anybody else. I am not ignnoring anyone, especially you dearest Christopher, but I just cannot keep up with everything here and function in life too.
[quote]Double Duce wrote:<<< But does not god know both good and evil? >>>[/quote]Yes [quote]DoubleDuce wrote:wouldn’t, at least in a way, knowing evil make us more like god? >>>[/quote]I suppose in a sense, but the serpent also called into question their ability to hear God (hath God said?) as well as God’s own integrity and honesty (you will not surely die, God is just selfish and doesn’t want you to be all you can be which is like Him (in essence) )[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:<<< If they were outright tricked and lied to, while not even knowing what a lie was, it would make them less culpable, no? [/quote]No. All they needed to know was God’s command. Even so much as entertaining any contrary view was already opening the door to sin
2 Cor. 11:3
[quote]But I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.[/quote]1 Timothy 2:14
Of course, Adam only sinned because God didn’t choose to pull his strings at that particular time. Had God filled Adam with His incomprehensible grace, he never would have sinned and would still be in the Garden of Eden. So says Calvin.
Personally, I’m kinda glad Adam sinned. If he hadn’t, none of us would be here.
Tiribulus:
Do you think that by appearing to us as a child, God showed that he can ignore knowledge, being both fully human and fully God at the same time? Is it possible then, even from your theological viewpoint, that God may have allowed for our will to go against His if this was part of his plan of perfection? Who are we to put limitations on God, and say what he can or cannot do?
[quote]forlife wrote:
Of course, Adam only sinned because God didn’t choose to pull his strings at that particular time. Had God filled Adam with His incomprehensible grace, he never would have sinned and would still be in the Garden of Eden. So says Calvin.
Personally, I’m kinda glad Adam sinned. If he hadn’t, none of us would be here.[/quote]
I believe though that Adam and Eve could have still had children in the Garden of Eden. God says child bearing would be painful. That sort of implies that before that it wasn’t so there must have been child bearing.
I’m not sure that my parents were married BEFORE I was conceived so I may not have been here without sin.
Mormons believe Adam and Eve couldn’t have children until they were cast out of the garden and became mortal. Also, they believe Adam and Eve committed a trasngression, which is different from a sin because they had no knowledge of good and evil until after they ate from the tree. Out of curiosity, do any other Christians believe that?
Mormons believe Adam and Eve couldn’t have children until they were cast out of the garden and became mortal. Also, they believe Adam and Eve committed a trasngression, which is different from a sin because they had no knowledge of good and evil until after they ate from the tree. Out of curiosity, do any other Christians believe that?
[quote]forlife wrote:
Mormons believe Adam and Eve couldn’t have children until they were cast out of the garden and became mortal. Also, they believe Adam and Eve committed a trasngression, which is different from a sin because they had no knowledge of good and evil until after they ate from the tree. Out of curiosity, do any other Christians believe that?[/quote]
I personally do not know of any other Christians, no. We tend to be divergent there.
[quote]eraserhead wrote:
Tiribulus:
Do you think that by appearing to us as a child, God showed that he can ignore knowledge, being both fully human and fully God at the same time? Is it possible then, even from your theological viewpoint, that God may have allowed for our will to go against His if this was part of his plan of perfection? Who are we to put limitations on God, and say what he can or cannot do? [/quote]Before I write a post based on what I think you’re asking please rephrase.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Of course, Adam only sinned because God didn’t choose to pull his strings at that particular time. Had God filled Adam with His incomprehensible grace, he never would have sinned and would still be in the Garden of Eden. So says Calvin.
Personally, I’m kinda glad Adam sinned. If he hadn’t, none of us would be here.[/quote]On my own server just for you. http://gregnmary.gotdns.com:8080/forum1/host/Institutes_of_the_Christian_Religion-John_Calvin.pdf Go ahead and read for yourself how pathetically wrong you are every time you allow the name of Calvin to fall from your lips.
EDIT: I don’t expect you to actually read Calvin before making further asinine and utterly inaccurate declarations on his thought, but even from the standpoint of simple self education he’s worth reading. That’s why I spent some time with Aquinas for instance. (or Kant, Russel or Hume) Hugely historical individual sporting a positively titanic intellect. Very engaging. Yes, on that score my hat is waaay off to St. Thomas. Even most rabid God hating thinkers also recognize Calvin for the towering genius that he was.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]eraserhead wrote:
Tiribulus:
Do you think that by appearing to us as a child, God showed that he can ignore knowledge, being both fully human and fully God at the same time? Is it possible then, even from your theological viewpoint, that God may have allowed for our will to go against His if this was part of his plan of perfection? Who are we to put limitations on God, and say what he can or cannot do? [/quote]Before I write a post based on what I think you’re asking please rephrase.
[/quote]
I had some trouble rephrasing. Please write a post based on what you think I’m asking, I’m interested in hearing your opinion anyway.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Because Adam and Eve knew the truth. And why didn’t he forgive them? Because they deserved to die. That is why. >>>[/quote]Was there an Adam and Eve Chris? If so what sin did they commit to deserve death? If not, then what are you talkin about? I’m being very serious.
EDIT: Where are you dear Christopher. It’s not like you to duck me like this. Maybe you simply didn’t see this question?
[quote]eraserhead wrote:<<< I had some trouble rephrasing. Please write a post based on what you think I’m asking, I’m interested in hearing your opinion anyway. [/quote]It will probably have to be tonight at the earliest.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Of course, Adam only sinned because God didn’t choose to pull his strings at that particular time. Had God filled Adam with His incomprehensible grace, he never would have sinned and would still be in the Garden of Eden. So says Calvin.
Personally, I’m kinda glad Adam sinned. If he hadn’t, none of us would be here.[/quote]On my own server just for you. http://gregnmary.gotdns.com:8080/forum1/host/Institutes_of_the_Christian_Religion-John_Calvin.pdf Go ahead and read for yourself how pathetically wrong you are every time you allow the name of Calvin to fall from your lips.
EDIT: I don’t expect you to actually read Calvin before making further asinine and utterly inaccurate declarations on his thought, but even from the standpoint of simple self education he’s worth reading. That’s why I spent some time with Aquinas for instance. (or Kant, Russel or Hume) Hugely historical individual sporting a positively titanic intellect. Very engaging. Yes, on that score my hat is waaay off to St. Thomas. Even most rabid God hating thinkers also recognize Calvin for the towering genius that he was. [/quote]
Since my primary source of Calvin’s doctrines has been your own words in this forum, you can hardly blame me for any misrepresentations of his beliefs.
Course, I don’t think he’s actually being misrepresented. You just don’t like the unavoidable conclusions of his teachings, lamely dismissing those conclusions as “sinful, fallen man logic”.
You’ve said over and over again that God chose you, and that you never would have chosen God had He not chosen you first. It’s perfectly clear that you believe God chooses who to save and who to damn, despite anything man might actually want or choose. If that isn’t the classic definition of a puppeteer God, I don’t know what is.
Either 1) Men have at least some choice or 2) God does 100% of the choosing for us. It is definitionally and unavoidably impossible for both to be true, no matter how many times you hide behind the curtain of “sinful, fallen man logic”.