Sooooo, what have we learned so far?
Good PR is important and Yeshua was a hell of a salesman.
[quote]BBriere wrote:
[quote]belligerent wrote:
I didn’t read the thread before posting, but there is no God in the NT. “God” is replaced by Jesus.[/quote]
I’m guessing you’re not referring to this literally as in God is not actually mentioned in the NT, but he is replaced by Jesus. That’s still not really accurate. Obviously, more attention is paid to the redemptive work of Jesus, but God the Father is still mentioned as is the Holy Spirit.
I guess basically in the NT, we just have the total revelation of God in his three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirt, whereas the OT just deals with God the Father. [/quote]
Are you sure about the “total revelation of God in his three persons” or, the revelation of the doctrine of the trinity by the Catholic Church some centuries later?
[quote]orion wrote:
Sooooo, what have we learned so far?
Good PR is important and Isa was a hell of a salesman.
[/quote]
The islamic version to keep this thread political correct LOL
[quote]belligerent wrote:
I didn’t read the thread before posting, but there is no God in the NT. “God” is replaced by Jesus.[/quote]
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
[quote]belligerent wrote:
I didn’t read the thread before posting, but there is no God in the NT. “God” is replaced by Jesus.[/quote]
I’m guessing you’re not referring to this literally as in God is not actually mentioned in the NT, but he is replaced by Jesus. That’s still not really accurate. Obviously, more attention is paid to the redemptive work of Jesus, but God the Father is still mentioned as is the Holy Spirit.
I guess basically in the NT, we just have the total revelation of God in his three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirt, whereas the OT just deals with God the Father. [/quote]
Are you sure about the “total revelation of God in his three persons” or, the revelation of the doctrine of the trinity by the Catholic Church some centuries later?[/quote]
Um…the revelation of the trinity? You mean the tradition of the trinity?
[quote]byukid wrote:
[quote]belligerent wrote:
I didn’t read the thread before posting, but there is no God in the NT. “God” is replaced by Jesus.[/quote]
“And go and tell them that I ascend to my Father and your Father and my God and your God.”
“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
“Father, I pray for these…”
“This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased”
“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy soul, and the second is like unto it”
etc etc
God is pretty clearly in the NT along with Jesus.[/quote]
I meant that God doesn’t participate directly in the NT like he does in the OT. He doesn’t make personal appearances in the story or interact with people in any way.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
[quote]belligerent wrote:
I didn’t read the thread before posting, but there is no God in the NT. “God” is replaced by Jesus.[/quote]
I’m guessing you’re not referring to this literally as in God is not actually mentioned in the NT, but he is replaced by Jesus. That’s still not really accurate. Obviously, more attention is paid to the redemptive work of Jesus, but God the Father is still mentioned as is the Holy Spirit.
I guess basically in the NT, we just have the total revelation of God in his three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirt, whereas the OT just deals with God the Father. [/quote]
Are you sure about the “total revelation of God in his three persons” or, the revelation of the doctrine of the trinity by the Catholic Church some centuries later?[/quote]
Um…the revelation of the trinity? You mean the tradition of the trinity?[/quote]
Well, from man’s perspective. The birth of Christ and the Holy Spirit coming upon the Earth. They of course were already there from the beginning.
[quote]belligerent wrote:
[quote]byukid wrote:
[quote]belligerent wrote:
I didn’t read the thread before posting, but there is no God in the NT. “God” is replaced by Jesus.[/quote]
“And go and tell them that I ascend to my Father and your Father and my God and your God.”
“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
“Father, I pray for these…”
“This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased”
“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy soul, and the second is like unto it”
etc etc
God is pretty clearly in the NT along with Jesus.[/quote]
I meant that God doesn’t participate directly in the NT like he does in the OT. He doesn’t make personal appearances in the story or interact with people in any way.
[/quote]
Um…you mean the first four books of the NT don’t count?
[quote]belligerent wrote:
I didn’t read the thread before posting, but there is no God in the NT. “God” is replaced by Jesus.[/quote]The 1st of Hebrews ch. 1 (ESV) You really have to play some serious linguistic gymnastics to escape this passage. I bolded the OT quotations just to make it easier to read. God the Father and God the Son are all through here.
[quote]Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”?
Or again,
“I will be to him a father,
and he shall be to me a son”?
6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7 Of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
and his ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
10 And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11 they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
12 like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”
13 And to which of the angels has he ever said,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?[/quote]
Question, playing devil’s advocate here, literally I might add:
If the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament are one and the same, why didn’t God just forgive Adam and Eve when He knew they had been tricked by the serphant.
I am sure if the snake said to Eve, “I am really the devil and if you do this you will be banned from Paradise and you and your offspring’s souls will be damned in hell for all eternity.” she might not have eaten the fruit.
She went against God’s wishes, but was lied to by a supernatural being with motives she could never possibly comprehend.
The prostitute also went against God, but Jesus forgave her
He forgave the sins of all mankind.
Why didn’t God just nip this all in the bud?
Any idea?
NOBODY was “just forgiven”. It required the incarnation, sinless life, voluntary sacrificial death and resurrection of God the Son. The second person of the Godhead. The forgiveness of any, every and all sin in all ages, including ancient Israel, was by faith either looking forward or back at He who knew no sin, but was made sin for me that that I might be made the righteous of God in Him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)
This is what Jesus was talking about in the 8th of the Gospel of John when He told the Pharisees as they were pestering Him about who he was that 54-<<<>>> "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, “He is our God”; 55-and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56-“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Question, playing devil’s advocate here, literally I might add:
If the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament are one and the same, why didn’t God just forgive Adam and Eve when He knew they had been tricked by the serphant.
I am sure if the snake said to Eve, “I am really the devil and if you do this you will be banned from Paradise and you and your offspring’s souls will be damned in hell for all eternity.” she might not have eaten the fruit.
She went against God’s wishes, but was lied to by a supernatural being with motives she could never possibly comprehend.
The prostitute also went against God, but Jesus forgave her
He forgave the sins of all mankind.
Why didn’t God just nip this all in the bud?
Any idea?
[/quote]
God did forgive mankind, he just didn’t eliminate the consequences. If God didn’t forgive Adam and Eve, he would have just said, “Well, these people failed me. Back to the drawing board.” He even stopped short of this with Noah and the flood. Rather than wipe everyone out, he kept the faithful from punishment.
Now think about if God would have said, “Adam and Eve, you deliberately disobeyed me, but I’m forgiving so here’s paradise back. Just don’t do it again.” Would people really have free will? If no matter what I did I couldn’t be cast out of paradise and God’s presence, then that’s not really a choice but a mandate. If God gave you free will, then he says you have the choice to do as you want and face the consequences that go with it.
Just remember this as a loving God: God created paradise on Earth for US because that’s what he wanted to do. Adam and Eve rejected it. God chose to die for US on the cross because he wanted fellowship. Many have still rejected that. God reaches out, mankind turns their backs.
[quote]BBriere wrote:
<<<< Would people really have free will? >>>[/quote]Yeah because that’s the defining, governing principle above absolutely all else.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Question, playing devil’s advocate here, literally I might add:
If the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament are one and the same, why didn’t God just forgive Adam and Eve when He knew they had been tricked by the serphant.
I am sure if the snake said to Eve, “I am really the devil and if you do this you will be banned from Paradise and you and your offspring’s souls will be damned in hell for all eternity.” she might not have eaten the fruit.
She went against God’s wishes, but was lied to by a supernatural being with motives she could never possibly comprehend.
The prostitute also went against God, but Jesus forgave her
He forgave the sins of all mankind.
Why didn’t God just nip this all in the bud?
Any idea?
[/quote]
Actually, I don’t think the serpent lied to Adam and Eve.
I always just kinda wish they’d eaten of the tree of life first.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:Actually, I don’t think the serpent lied to Adam and Eve.[/quote]Half truth, omitting the most important half as usual.[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:I always just kinda wish they’d eaten of the tree of life first.[/quote]It still would’ve been disobedience though.
[quote]BBriere wrote:
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Question, playing devil’s advocate here, literally I might add:
If the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament are one and the same, why didn’t God just forgive Adam and Eve when He knew they had been tricked by the serphant.
I am sure if the snake said to Eve, “I am really the devil and if you do this you will be banned from Paradise and you and your offspring’s souls will be damned in hell for all eternity.” she might not have eaten the fruit.
She went against God’s wishes, but was lied to by a supernatural being with motives she could never possibly comprehend.
The prostitute also went against God, but Jesus forgave her
He forgave the sins of all mankind.
Why didn’t God just nip this all in the bud?
Any idea?
[/quote]
God did forgive mankind, he just didn’t eliminate the consequences. If God didn’t forgive Adam and Eve, he would have just said, “Well, these people failed me. Back to the drawing board.” He even stopped short of this with Noah and the flood. Rather than wipe everyone out, he kept the faithful from punishment.
Now think about if God would have said, “Adam and Eve, you deliberately disobeyed me, but I’m forgiving so here’s paradise back. Just don’t do it again.” Would people really have free will? If no matter what I did I couldn’t be cast out of paradise and God’s presence, then that’s not really a choice but a mandate. If God gave you free will, then he says you have the choice to do as you want and face the consequences that go with it.
Just remember this as a loving God: God created paradise on Earth for US because that’s what he wanted to do. Adam and Eve rejected it. God chose to die for US on the cross because he wanted fellowship. Many have still rejected that. God reaches out, mankind turns their backs. [/quote]
So it’s your position that “paradise” (other than the Garden of Eden) is here on earth? Can you please provide biblical reference to support that claim?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:Actually, I don’t think the serpent lied to Adam and Eve.[/quote]Half truth, omitting the most important half as usual.[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:I always just kinda wish they’d eaten of the tree of life first.[/quote]It still would’ve been disobedience though.
[/quote]
Sorry, what was half truth? What the serpent told them to get them to eat was true, was it not? They were mislead, but not lied to.
And my comment of the tree of life was just thinking about how it would have turned out differently if man were immortal. Because they weren’t originally forbidden from the tree of life. They were only denied immortality after sinning. I just wonder what would have happened if they’d eaten from the tree of life. I wasn’t saying that it would have made it not a sin.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
<<<< Would people really have free will? >>>[/quote]Yeah because that’s the defining, governing principle above absolutely all else.
[/quote]
I think you missed the rest of the post. In my hypothetical sitution where God didn’t allow Adam and Eve to mess up, would they still truly have free will? If God would have said we have free will until the time comes that we screw up and make the wrong decision then he eliminates the mistake, then we don’t really have free will. So if there is no free will, there is no need for Christ because God can just make us do what he pleases anyway.
[quote]BBriere wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
<<<< Would people really have free will? >>>[/quote]Yeah because that’s the defining, governing principle above absolutely all else.
[/quote]
I think you missed the rest of the post. In my hypothetical sitution where God didn’t allow Adam and Eve to mess up, would they still truly have free will? If God would have said we have free will until the time comes that we screw up and make the wrong decision then he eliminates the mistake, then we don’t really have free will. So if there is no free will, there is no need for Christ because God can just make us do what he pleases anyway. [/quote]I understood your point it appears better than you did, no offense. No matter what else may be true we definitely must start with the invincible free will of man and then define everything else, including God from there. That is the inescapable consequence of both your original post and this response.
Your point is quite effectively making my very long standing point of all points which is that the children of Adam worship their own will over God’s. Again, no offense, but there it is plain as day. You’ll no doubt reject my characterization, but that’s like too bad because that is indeed what you’re doing. I do not believe, as you do that my will is freer than God’s. His will defines mine and not the other way around. I wouldn’t have it any other way.
Nope. That does not abrogate my responsibility in the very least. Or yours.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Question, playing devil’s advocate here, literally I might add:
If the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament are one and the same, why didn’t God just forgive Adam and Eve when He knew they had been tricked by the serphant.
I am sure if the snake said to Eve, “I am really the devil and if you do this you will be banned from Paradise and you and your offspring’s souls will be damned in hell for all eternity.” she might not have eaten the fruit.
She went against God’s wishes, but was lied to by a supernatural being with motives she could never possibly comprehend.[/quote]
Because Adam and Eve knew the truth. And why didn’t he forgive them? Because they deserved to die. That is why. Jesus had to come so that any sacrifice for sin (which all mortal sin is in effect bad enough for you die) would have the grace of forgiveness, because sacrifice itself is worthless since all his G-d’s, so you’re not really sacrificing anything.
Because the Pharisees were being hypocrites, if they caught her red handed in adultery, then where was the man to be stoned as well?
No. He died for the sins of the world, different than forgiving the sins of all mankind.
Because He loved us, he gave us freewill. Adam and Eve choose to put themselves above G-d. That is the basic of all sin is putting yourself above G-d, making yourself G-d.