God and Hell

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated (concerning tithes),

“…You have to use the entire scripture to interpret what is being said. Jesus even said, ‘he did not come to abolish the law.’ The Hebrew Scriptures are very adimate about tithing.”

First, I believe in tithing and the giving of offerings. Secondly, though, I do not believe that certain peoples (those living check to check) of church membership should be intimidated to do so with the following, “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” (Malachi 3:8-10).

Using the above Scripture, the church members are told to tithe faithfully, expecting God to fulfill their needs. Yet, as that saying, “what is good for the goose is good for the gander.”

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 “At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.”

Every third year the tithe was to be stored in local towns rather than taken to the sanctuary. This tithe provided support for the Levites who had no property, inheritance or secular occupation. In this way, generous support was given to the Levites including the aliens, orphans and widows. In this manner, provision was made for the Israelites to extend love to their neighbors as they shared what God had given them. Doing this they had the assurance “that the Lord (their) God may bless (them) in all the work of (their) hands,”

What church today, every third year, would be willing to give up all the tithes of that year to the less fortunate and look upon God to fulfill it’s needs.[/quote]

coughCatholic Churchcough

102

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Tithing

It is interesting to note that no where in the Greek Scriptures is it every brought up that we should tithe. Instead, it gives us principles to follow:

2 Cor 8:12

For if the readiness is there first, it is especially acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what a person does not have.

2 Cor 9:7

Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

To be forced to give, or, to give under “compulsion” goes against what the Bible teaches. We are encouraged to give what we want, from our heart, cheerfully.[/quote]

Honest, dont mean to be an ass, but I find it amazing how you use the scripture to fit your needs. You will use the Hebrew Scripture sometimes and then the Greek other times to get your point across. You have to use the entire scripture to interpret what is being said. Jesus even said, “he did not come to abolish the law.” The Hebrew Scriptures are very adimate about tithing.[/quote]

The Hebrew Scriptures were also very strict on the Sabbath keeping. What does that mean?[/quote]

It says to rest and keep the Sabbath Holy. What does that mean?[/quote]

Not do anything that would desecrate the Sabbath?

103

[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:

Sometimes.
But this is not quite the same thing. You honor them because YOU want to honor them, no? You dont honor them because THEY want you to honor them. Mothers did not create Mothers day. No, people created that day for Mothers because they were grateful.

But God created a day for us to honor him. This is what I was questioning. Why? Why does he need us to honor him? To praise him? To obey him?

Is this not the same as Stalin and Hitler creating statues of themselves. Asking to be praised and what not? To build their confidence… to make them feel powerful. Basically, conditions to make them happy.

And your God, being all too human, becomes happy when we praise him? It makes him feel good? But when we dont… when we praise other gods. He gets jealous? He gets angry? Sad? … all this time he has this Fear that he could lose his followers.

This raises more issues. 1) Isnt God’s love unconditional? 2) How can God love and be jealous, angry, fearful at the same time?

More issues: Anxiety, depression, fear, jealousy ( PAIN ) are emotions necessary for human survival. Pleasure as well. But why does a God, outside of time and space, outside of death, why does a God need these survival emotions? They have no function.

All that should exist is LOVE. ECSTASY. BLISS. JOY. PEACE. All of which are without conditions… without a reason.

And I am against the war but I support the troops. What?!

Does he? Or does he (supposedly) want you to have the freedom to choose heaven or hell? If he truly wanted us in Heaven we would all be going there. He’s all powerful isnt he?

So if , to my estimates, at least 4 billion members of this current world go to Hell. Its the best for us? Some don’t believe in Hell, though. So lets change that question to simply “Why are 4 billion humans not getting into Heaven?”

We are his kids.
He loves us unconditionally.

[quote]
Do you see where I am going with this?[/quote]
where?[/quote]

I will keep it short and simple. Sin is a poison, it is not and never will be allowed in heaven. We are forgiven for our sins through our lord and savior Jesus Christ… if you dont have Jc then sorry but no heaven. God wont make exceptions. People always like to make little, apparently in their mind, intelligent comments that are totally discussed in the bible. God loves us all and wants us in heaven but if he allowed sin in heaven then it would be no different then earth. The whole point of a heaven is a world without death, and general sinfulness that cause all the negative things in our world. (the wages of sin are death)

104

[quote]Petermus wrote:

I will keep it short and simple. Sin is a poison, it is not and never will be allowed in heaven. We are forgiven for our sins through our lord and savior Jesus Christ… if you dont have Jc then sorry but no heaven. God wont make exceptions. People always like to make little, apparently in their mind, intelligent comments that are totally discussed in the bible. God loves us all and wants us in heaven but if he allowed sin in heaven then it would be no different then earth. The whole point of a heaven is a world without death, and general sinfulness that cause all the negative things in our world. (the wages of sin are death)
[/quote]

No sin in heaven? Where is was Satan? Did he sin?

105

Satan is separate from God’s creation (humans etc) he saw that Man was more highly favored then he was, through his own free will he created his jealousy and sought to lower man and to exalt himself higher than God. So he got the boot. Can sin occur in heaven? I suppose so but then those guilty of it are cast out. 1/3 of the angels were cast out with Satan because they desired power.

106

[quote]Petermus wrote:
Satan is separate from God’s creation (humans etc) he saw that Man was more highly favored then he was, through his own free will he created his jealousy and sought to lower man and to exalt himself higher than God. So he got the boot. Can sin occur in heaven? I suppose so but then those guilty of it are cast out. 1/3 of the angels were cast out with Satan because they desired power.[/quote]

Actually some of those angels were not quite fortunate enough to escape with their leader:

2 Peter 2:4 “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and cimmitted them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgement.”

107

Did Satan get cast out right away? ZEB, what was the greek word used there for hell?

108

So no free will in heaven I am assuming?

That seems simple enough.

What I have asked has been discussed in the bible?

Thats a bad thing?

A world that is known. Without uncertainty. and fear . and pain. This is what we want. And as expected, this is what Heaven is.
?

–

What if we took the reward and punishment out of it? See if believers would still “believe”? Take out this happy thing called Heaven and this scary thing called Hell, and see if people would still “praise the lord”.

Believing in JC can be said to be the same as the requirement of loving JC, right? Love JC and get in heaven. But there can be no love where there is fear of hell and no love where there are thoughts of heaven (which give you pleasure). Love is without thoughts and reasons ( like you and your daughter. You simply love “what is”.)

So yeah, it is my “belief” that the Christian population (among all other scary religions) would decrease by 99.9% if removed of the reward-punishment scheme.

To which you say: ya sooo…its still belief. Its still love.
To which I say: it’s fake.

109

[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:

So no free will in heaven I am assuming?

That seems simple enough.

What I have asked has been discussed in the bible?

Thats a bad thing?

A world that is known. Without uncertainty. and fear . and pain. This is what we want. And as expected, this is what Heaven is.
?

–

What if we took the reward and punishment out of it? See if believers would still “believe”? Take out this happy thing called Heaven and this scary thing called Hell, and see if people would still “praise the lord”.

Believing in JC can be said to be the same as the requirement of loving JC, right? Love JC and get in heaven. But there can be no love where there is fear of hell and no love where there are thoughts of heaven (which give you pleasure). Love is without thoughts and reasons ( like you and your daughter. You simply love “what is”.)

So yeah, it is my “belief” that the Christian population (among all other scary religions) would decrease by 99.9% if removed of the reward-punishment scheme.

To which you say: ya sooo…its still belief. Its still love.
To which I say: it’s fake. [/quote]

Are there any self help books that you follow, and love, that have really made you a better person?

110

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:

So no free will in heaven I am assuming?

That seems simple enough.

What I have asked has been discussed in the bible?

Thats a bad thing?

A world that is known. Without uncertainty. and fear . and pain. This is what we want. And as expected, this is what Heaven is.
?

–

What if we took the reward and punishment out of it? See if believers would still “believe”? Take out this happy thing called Heaven and this scary thing called Hell, and see if people would still “praise the lord”.

Believing in JC can be said to be the same as the requirement of loving JC, right? Love JC and get in heaven. But there can be no love where there is fear of hell and no love where there are thoughts of heaven (which give you pleasure). Love is without thoughts and reasons ( like you and your daughter. You simply love “what is”.)

So yeah, it is my “belief” that the Christian population (among all other scary religions) would decrease by 99.9% if removed of the reward-punishment scheme.

To which you say: ya sooo…its still belief. Its still love.
To which I say: it’s fake. [/quote]

Are there any self help books that you follow, and love, that have really made you a better person?[/quote]

While Orthodox jews believe in an after life, others believe in no after life at all (dunno where they got that from?) Islam does have a hell but you are only their for a short period of time unless ur like Hitler times ten then you get left there. the large majority skip hell all together. I will also add that Ive already said in a previous post that the difference between a religious person and a christian is that while a religious person follows a code of morals and ethics for reward or fear of punishment, Christians through their relationship with christ desire to live in his imagine. People who follow christ for the sake of reward are no different then non believers…clearly shown in luke 15, parable of the lost son.

There is free will in heaven, as there is on earth. You can choose to sin but it is not without consequence. God simply will not allow heaven to be mucked up by sin. Obviously…nothing good can come from sin.

The bible talks constantly about many questions you’ve asked.

The earth is filled with sin and consequently death, disease etc…any and all behavior the bible marks as sin. In heaven we dwell with God and live as God intended us to. Eden sounds like a great place to me, but thats just my opinion.

111

[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:

So no free will in heaven I am assuming?

That seems simple enough.

What I have asked has been discussed in the bible?

Thats a bad thing?

A world that is known. Without uncertainty. and fear . and pain. This is what we want. And as expected, this is what Heaven is.
?

–

What if we took the reward and punishment out of it? See if believers would still “believe”? Take out this happy thing called Heaven and this scary thing called Hell, and see if people would still “praise the lord”.

Believing in JC can be said to be the same as the requirement of loving JC, right? Love JC and get in heaven. But there can be no love where there is fear of hell and no love where there are thoughts of heaven (which give you pleasure). Love is without thoughts and reasons ( like you and your daughter. You simply love “what is”.)

So yeah, it is my “belief” that the Christian population (among all other scary religions) would decrease by 99.9% if removed of the reward-punishment scheme.

To which you say: ya sooo…its still belief. Its still love.
To which I say: it’s fake. [/quote]

Let’s look at it from a bodybuilding perspective. You work your ass off at the gym follow all the rules to getting big, nutrition, proper programs, you bust your hump when you work out and sleep your 8 hours a night. If you stopped gaining size and strength but knew that it was imperative to your health would you continue with this type of devotion without the rewards of getting bigger and stronger? 99.9% of bodybuilders would not continue to train the way they are without the reward even with the punishment being poor health.

Christians do not live their lives according to the word of God for fear of punishment, they live their lives because of the relationship which they have with Christ. Here in lies the difference between a pastime, or religion based on works. I enjoy living my life as close to the example that Christ set for us as I can, not to get into Heaven or avoid hell but to help my brothers and sisters on this earth while I’m here and to build a infinite relationship with Jesus Christ now, not when i get to Heaven.

What’s so scary about a religion that preaches love, peace, and acceptance of all others?

112

[quote]Beara33 wrote:

Let’s look at it from a bodybuilding perspective. You work your ass off at the gym follow all the rules to getting big, nutrition, proper programs, you bust your hump when you work out and sleep your 8 hours a night. If you stopped gaining size and strength but knew that it was imperative to your health would you continue with this type of devotion without the rewards of getting bigger and stronger? 99.9% of bodybuilders would not continue to train the way they are without the reward even with the punishment being poor health.
[/quote]

Of course not, but that is within the realm of the mind. Goal setting… wanting to get huge… wanting more – all part of the active mind. The thinking part. What I was talking of (loving God), is not. If you took away the reward-punishment, only the true “believers” would be left. The ones that love God. The ones that have had a personal encounter with God. The ones whose minds are not clouded with images and expectations of Gods and are able to see God as “what is”.

And I bet you are a good person. I applaud you for this.

Speech is not action.

And , like I said before, if God loved us (unconditionally) , we would all get to spend time with him in Heaven. Right?

113

[quote]Petermus wrote:

Christians through their relationship with christ desire to live in his imagine.
[/quote]

Desire? Why do they desire?
So Christians WANT to live like Christ because it will make them happy because of the thought of 1) going to heaven or 2) no hell or 3) it will make them better people. Its usually all 3 of these.

So wheres the love? If you love Jc, you will not desire to become like Jc.

But you already said Christians desire to become like JC.

Thats what people keep saying.

114

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Are there any self help books that you follow, and love, that have really made you a better person?[/quote]

Are you implying that the Bible is a great self-help tool?
I would say its decent.

There are better.

You dont have to live with conflict and boundaries and division. With anxiety or worries. With limiting beliefs and thoughts. You can live as nature intended and be content… finally be fulfilled.

If you are genuine, you can PM me about good sources.

115

THE_CLAMP_DOWN,

Have you read the Bible? That is a serious question, no sarcasm intended. I say that because I have read a lot of self help books, and all of them use as their baseline things that are found in the Bible;intentionally or unintentionally. If you haven’t read the Bible, or even haven’t read the Bible with the intent to apply, I would recommend starting in the Greek Scriptures.

Best self-help book I have ever read.

Now only does it make your life MUCH better just by following its advise, but it offers so much more in the way of rewards from God, and the promise that God would never leave you.

Also, as a side point, and I know people will not agree with this (well the majority won’t) but there is no hell in the sense that people give it. It is just the ground. When you die you become dust. So really, the only punishment that you get is death, which you would get anyway. No downside, only and upside.

116

[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:

You dont have to live with boundaries.
[/quote]

LOL.

117

[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:

So no free will in heaven I am assuming?

That seems simple enough.

What I have asked has been discussed in the bible?

Thats a bad thing?

A world that is known. Without uncertainty. and fear . and pain. This is what we want. And as expected, this is what Heaven is.
?

–

What if we took the reward and punishment out of it? See if believers would still “believe”? Take out this happy thing called Heaven and this scary thing called Hell, and see if people would still “praise the lord”.

Believing in JC can be said to be the same as the requirement of loving JC, right? Love JC and get in heaven. But there can be no love where there is fear of hell and no love where there are thoughts of heaven (which give you pleasure). Love is without thoughts and reasons ( like you and your daughter. You simply love “what is”.)

So yeah, it is my “belief” that the Christian population (among all other scary religions) would decrease by 99.9% if removed of the reward-punishment scheme.

To which you say: ya sooo…its still belief. Its still love.
To which I say: it’s fake. [/quote]

I see your point, and I would be lieing if I never thought about what you are saying. Fear is a great motivator. At first, but again I say if fear is your only motivating factor then your Christianity is like the seed that was cast on the rocks. It grows quickly and then withers and dies. I will agree that, you say 99.9%, but I say 80%, if the fear of Hell was removed from doctrine many people would not beleieve.

This is a really bad analogy, but Christianity is kind of like an Very Sweet Ripe Orange. You have the Zest on the outside which smells really good, but the taste is not that good unless mixed in with other stuff. This is the first part of being a Christian. It smells really good because you get to go to heaven and not hell, but unless you mix it with faith it is not good for much else. Then you get the pith which tastes really bad. This is the part where you feel Christianity is nothing but a bunch of rules. You cant do this and cant do that. This really turns a lot of people off from God and understandalbly so. These rules are not there to make our life bad, but to help us live a much fuller life. Last is the fruit itself. This is the largest part of the Orange, and the best part of the fruit I must say. You have to go through the other parts to get to the best part. Knowing and Walking with God is the best fruit there is. Most people never make it to this part, but the wait is well worth it. Again you might not agree with this, but the Christians that have made it to the fruit truely know God and there is nothing that will tear them away from him.

118

Some.

What are you reading for self help? The best self help is self knowledge, and that springs from awareness coupled with an understanding of the biology of the brain, the psychology it produces, human nature, and the origin of fear and evil.

Through this understanding you can accept things as “what is”.
Once you see a SPECT scan of someones brain showing underactive frontal lobe activity (ADD), how can you fault them for being impulsive? from not learning from past mistakes?
Once you understand the human nature of man, how can you fault them for running to “safety” (beliefs) when they are scared, frightened?
Once you understand the psychology of the ego, how can you fault one for being defensive when questioning their beliefs (identity)?

This is not in the bible.

Self Help is in observation. Just watching human beings interact. Watching their actions and reactions. No thoughts. No analysis. No comparison.

This is LOVE. JOY. ACCEPTANCE. PEACE. BLISS. ECSTASY.
All of which are in the moment.

Me, right now, typing and remembering these states of being (thinking)… this is pleasure. And this is what we run on – Pain and pleasure. But we can change that through awareness.

I dont question it makes your life better, but this is what we have been talking about. We want that promise. We want that certainty that we are going to live forever.

and I believe you are considered a non believer according to the bible ( see other post).

119

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

I will agree that, you say 99.9%, but I say 80%, if the fear of Hell was removed from doctrine many people would not beleieve.
[/quote]
Did you factor in the promise of heaven? Did you factor in the feeling of happiness of living in Jc’s image?

Maybe we are getting lost in translation. I believe a belief in JC is the equivalent of loving JC. So my question is : what is Love?

[quote]
Knowing and Walking with God is the best fruit there is. Most people never make it to this part, but the wait is well worth it. Again you might not agree with this, but the Christians that have made it to the fruit truely know God and there is nothing that will tear them away from him. [/quote]

The fruit is in heaven?
Can you know and walk with God before Heaven?

120

[quote]Petermus wrote:

God loves us all and wants us in heaven but if he allowed sin in heaven then it would be no different then earth.
[/quote]

I thought about this some more.

I think sin (fear, evil) can only stay on Earth.
You can let all the murderers, thieves, and other “bad” people up to heaven, and sin will not come with them. Why is this?

Well, why do people kill? Why do people steal?
Because of fear. What are we afraid of?
Afraid of loss. Afraid of losing life (dieing). Afraid of losing money or never having enough money. Afraid that we wont be accepted. Afraid that another will hurt us again like they did in the past. Believing that we have to strap a bomb on our chest or God will not give us our 72 virgins. etc.

So heaven. Infinite in everything you ever wanted and needed, without politics, religion (ha), and other beliefs over which people will fight. Without this fear, … there can be only Love.

so conclusions

  1. You have the free will to commit sin in Heaven – You just wont ever feel the need. Thats LOVE.
  2. God is twisted
    –2a) Why did he put us on Earth and give us all these weapons (limited resources combined with our human nature. ie. fear of loss) ?
    –2b) And now we are battling it out, trying to win God’s approval?
    –2c) Is this not the equivalent of giving a angry, confused Obsessive Defiant kid an axe and telling them not to chop up the kitten (who has a history of chopping up kittens)?

God gave us the tools. The brains and environment. Theres no magic to that equation.
So maybe we are functioning accordingly… just like God intended?

The only world a all powerful, all knowing God could created is the BEST one. Which is this one.