I’ve heard people mention “free will” a few times throughout this thread. My question is, why do you think you have free will to the extent that you do? I don’t believe that free will doesn’t exist (suicide demonstrates this), but are we really as free as we think?
IMO, no.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I’ve heard people mention “free will” a few times throughout this thread. My question is, why do you think you have free will to the extent that you do? I don’t believe that free will doesn’t exist (suicide demonstrates this), but are we really as free as we think?
IMO, no.[/quote]
IMO, no as well.
Most people cannot see or feel their shackles.
[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I will agree that, you say 99.9%, but I say 80%, if the fear of Hell was removed from doctrine many people would not beleieve.
[/quote]
Did you factor in the promise of heaven? Did you factor in the feeling of happiness of living in Jc’s image?
Maybe we are getting lost in translation. I believe a belief in JC is the equivalent of loving JC. So my question is : what is Love?
[quote]
Knowing and Walking with God is the best fruit there is. Most people never make it to this part, but the wait is well worth it. Again you might not agree with this, but the Christians that have made it to the fruit truely know God and there is nothing that will tear them away from him. [/quote]
The fruit is in heaven?
Can you know and walk with God before Heaven?[/quote]
Love is a difficult thing to understand and define. As stated in the movie “The Matrix” No one can tell you are in love you just know you are. If I can use the Bible love is willing to give up your life. I think it is hard to find examples here in America where people are killed for their belief in Jesus, but if you go to a third world country you will see this a lot more often. It is stated by several Christian organizations that a million Christians in any given year are killed for their beleifs. There is no doubt that the Colleseum in Rome was used to kill Christians in the name of Sport. I would think this type of fear would keep people away from Jesus, but Christianity flourishes in this type of environement. Happiness to me is a feeling that Jesus never promised to us. Jesus never said loving him would be easy. He did promise us Joy though. Joy only comes from knowing and loving Jesus.
I would like to beleive that you can know and walk with God before Heaven. His Holy Spirit/Ghost can commune with you. It is stated in the New Testament where 2 or more are gathered in his name he will be there also. In the old Testament there are several references to people walking with God. God wants to walk with us the question is are we willing to put forth the time and effort to get to know him.
[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:
[quote]Petermus wrote:
God loves us all and wants us in heaven but if he allowed sin in heaven then it would be no different then earth.
[/quote]
I thought about this some more.
I think sin (fear, evil) can only stay on Earth.
You can let all the murderers, thieves, and other “bad” people up to heaven, and sin will not come with them. Why is this?
Well, why do people kill? Why do people steal?
Because of fear. What are we afraid of?
Afraid of loss. Afraid of losing life (dieing). Afraid of losing money or never having enough money. Afraid that we wont be accepted. Afraid that another will hurt us again like they did in the past. Believing that we have to strap a bomb on our chest or God will not give us our 72 virgins. etc.
So heaven. Infinite in everything you ever wanted and needed, without politics, religion (ha), and other beliefs over which people will fight. Without this fear, … there can be only Love.
so conclusions
God gave us the tools. The brains and environment. Theres no magic to that equation.
So maybe we are functioning accordingly… just like God intended?
The only world a all powerful, all knowing God could created is the BEST one. Which is this one.
[/quote]
Your definition of sin is wrong. Sin is not fear, it is inperfection. If you want to understand the Bible’s viewpoint, I would suggest that you read it. You would then have the knowledge to form a conclusion. It is good you are thinking, and trying to draw conclusions, but it sounds to me that your conclusion have a malicious intent. I could be wrong, and if I am I apologize. However, the conclusions you are drawing would, I think, be so much different when you actually read the Bible and not take people’s analogies about what “being with God” is like.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I’ve heard people mention “free will” a few times throughout this thread. My question is, why do you think you have free will to the extent that you do? I don’t believe that free will doesn’t exist (suicide demonstrates this), but are we really as free as we think?
IMO, no.[/quote]
I see your point.
IMO to those who do not listen to God you have all the free will your heart desires. To those who listen to and accept the discipline of God then our free will is a bit controlled or restricted. For example, and this might be too simple, but growing up when my Dad would be driving and all of a sudden he would throw his arm in front of me when he made a very abrupt stop. I think God does this to us, saying that is far enough. The question is will our free will move his arm out of the way and continue doing what we want to do, or will we hold on to his arm to protect us. The more we push aside God’s arm the easier it becomes to continue to push his arm aside. Do bad things happen to good people? Yes they do, and my mind will never be able to fathom why this is. I can speculate, but I will really never know. I would love to think that all people will go to heaven, but IMO not everyone will. God loves us, but hates sin. Sin is what separates us from God. He loves us so much that he gave us a way so that we can know and walk with him. Our free will allows us to accept him or reject him. I believe that is a lot of free will.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I’ve heard people mention “free will” a few times throughout this thread. My question is, why do you think you have free will to the extent that you do? I don’t believe that free will doesn’t exist (suicide demonstrates this), but are we really as free as we think?
IMO, no.[/quote]
I see your point.
IMO to those who do not listen to God you have all the free will your heart desires. To those who listen to and accept the discipline of God then our free will is a bit controlled or restricted. For example, and this might be too simple, but growing up when my Dad would be driving and all of a sudden he would throw his arm in front of me when he made a very abrupt stop. I think God does this to us, saying that is far enough. The question is will our free will move his arm out of the way and continue doing what we want to do, or will we hold on to his arm to protect us. The more we push aside God’s arm the easier it becomes to continue to push his arm aside. Do bad things happen to good people? Yes they do, and my mind will never be able to fathom why this is. I can speculate, but I will really never know. I would love to think that all people will go to heaven, but IMO not everyone will. God loves us, but hates sin. Sin is what separates us from God. He loves us so much that he gave us a way so that we can know and walk with him. Our free will allows us to accept him or reject him. I believe that is a lot of free will.[/quote]
I’m not talking about the free will in acceptance of God. I’m talking about in our ordinary lives. I personally am under the belief that our actions are caused by previous experiences. Think about it: Why do you chose the food you will eat? Because you learned it tastes good or maybe healthy? So when you go out to eat, is it your taste buds or desire to be healthy your driving motive or is it entirely your choice outside of these contexts?
If we follow this type of logic, most of our actions on earth can be purely attributed from experience.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Your definition of sin is wrong. Sin is not fear, it is inperfection.
[/quote]
Evil and fear are not imperfection? Hmmm…
Did my conclusion hurt you? Why else would you say it was malicious.
Please. Does it sound like I have not invested time into this?
Do you need to read the Bible to understand the Bible? To understand the message?
Did you need to read all 3000 pages of the HC bill to understand what was behind that bill?
Can you not just hit on the key points?
Can you understand the big picture without getting lost in the details?
On another note, Have you read the Koran? The Talmud? Other religious booklets. In order to know Christinaity is right… is the “truth”, you need to verify all the other religions are false, right?? Or do you?
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I’m not talking about the free will in acceptance of God. I’m talking about in our ordinary lives. I personally am under the belief that our actions are caused by previous experiences. Think about it: Why do you chose the food you will eat? Because you learned it tastes good or maybe healthy? So when you go out to eat, is it your taste buds or desire to be healthy your driving motive or is it entirely your choice outside of these contexts?
If we follow this type of logic, most of our actions on earth can be purely attributed from experience.[/quote]
“You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.”
Your about to enter a rabbit hole there , boy.
[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I’m not talking about the free will in acceptance of God. I’m talking about in our ordinary lives. I personally am under the belief that our actions are caused by previous experiences. Think about it: Why do you chose the food you will eat? Because you learned it tastes good or maybe healthy? So when you go out to eat, is it your taste buds or desire to be healthy your driving motive or is it entirely your choice outside of these contexts?
If we follow this type of logic, most of our actions on earth can be purely attributed from experience.[/quote]
“You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.”
Your about to enter a rabbit hole there , boy.[/quote]
You two have some logical arguments, and I see what you all are saying. I might say it is a little general, but logical arguments non the less.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I’m not talking about the free will in acceptance of God. I’m talking about in our ordinary lives. I personally am under the belief that our actions are caused by previous experiences. Think about it: Why do you chose the food you will eat? Because you learned it tastes good or maybe healthy? So when you go out to eat, is it your taste buds or desire to be healthy your driving motive or is it entirely your choice outside of these contexts?
If we follow this type of logic, most of our actions on earth can be purely attributed from experience.[/quote]
“You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.”
Your about to enter a rabbit hole there , boy.[/quote]
You two have some logical arguments, and I see what you all are saying. I might say it is a little general, but logical arguments non the less.[/quote]
Of course it’s general, but we can extrapolate it further. The majority of people follow their religion because there parents followed it as well. These kids “experienced” it at a young age. If you choose to follow another religion, some previous “experience” will guide you to another.
For instance, say you were raised in a family that did not practice religion. In college, you meet a group of friends who are highly religious. Based on your new experience with this group, you might find this religion enjoyable. One reason you could find it enjoyable is that you “experienced” something previously that tells you it’s enjoyable. If you find it repulsive, it could be because you “experienced” something from your past that makes it repulsive.
So really, are we just the current sum of our experiences? Does free will even exist?
Fear is not imperfection, no. Jesus had fear of displeasing his father. He was perfect.
It does sound like you have invested time into your questions and line of reasoning. However, it doesn’t look sound like you have look hard into the Bible to find the answers.
You can look at the highlights of the Bible, but if those highlights are from someone with a preconceived opinion, then I would imagine your “highlights” would be biased some, no? (look at the two sides of the heathcare bill on this one)
[quote]
Do you need to read the Bible to understand the Bible? To understand the message? [/quote]
Short answer: yes, you do. And yes I have read it multiple times.
[quote]
On another note, Have you read the Koran? The Talmud? Other religious booklets. In order to know Christinaity is right… is the “truth”, you need to verify all the other religions are false, right?? Or do you? [/quote]
I have used this analogy before, but will use it again. Someone that checks for counterfeit money doesn’t study EVERY possible type of counterfeit money. They study the real one very very well, and then they will know what a counterfeit will look like.
If I wasn’t satisfied with my religion, I would look elsewhere. However, since every question I have had has been answered satisfactory, I have no reason to change.
Yes we have free will. If you feel your experiences modify your current behavior, well that would be a personal decision to allow that, no? You don’t have to let those things affect you, do you?
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
If you feel your experiences modify your current behavior, well that would be a personal decision to allow that, no?[/quote]
But my current behavior is the result of my past experiences. For example, take a dog that was beat by it’s owner. That dog will naturally be hostile towards people. These previous experience will effect future decisions this dog makes.
Okay, I’m going to lay it out there: I don’t believe free will exists. All of our decisions we make in our lives are based on previous experiences. These previous experiences are the essence which guides are future decisions.
Could someone who believes in free will attempt to disapprove this? I really believe this is correct.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
If you feel your experiences modify your current behavior, well that would be a personal decision to allow that, no?[/quote]
But my current behavior is the result of my past experiences. For example, take a dog that was beat by it’s owner. That dog will naturally be hostile towards people. These previous experience will effect future decisions this dog makes.
Okay, I’m going to lay it out there: I don’t believe free will exists. All of our decisions we make in our lives are based on previous experiences. These previous experiences are the essence which guides are future decisions.
Could someone who believes in free will attempt to disapprove this? I really believe this is correct.[/quote]
Try applying my example to a human instead of a dog for me please. Humans have much higher intelligence.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
If you feel your experiences modify your current behavior, well that would be a personal decision to allow that, no?[/quote]
But my current behavior is the result of my past experiences. For example, take a dog that was beat by it’s owner. That dog will naturally be hostile towards people. These previous experience will effect future decisions this dog makes.
Okay, I’m going to lay it out there: I don’t believe free will exists. All of our decisions we make in our lives are based on previous experiences. These previous experiences are the essence which guides are future decisions.
Could someone who believes in free will attempt to disapprove this? I really believe this is correct.[/quote]
Try applying my example to a human instead of a dog for me please. Humans have much higher intelligence.[/quote]
Okay, replace the dog with a child: they would still be hostile towards there parents. It’s still completely relevant, no matter the intelligence.
Earlier today, I said only suicide proves free will (because that act goes against the organism). This was wrong. How many people do you know who are perfectly happy who kill themselves? None. It was the previous experiences that laid the foundation for their future decision to kill themselves.
Please continue.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I’m not talking about the free will in acceptance of God. I’m talking about in our ordinary lives. I personally am under the belief that our actions are caused by previous experiences. Think about it: Why do you chose the food you will eat? Because you learned it tastes good or maybe healthy? So when you go out to eat, is it your taste buds or desire to be healthy your driving motive or is it entirely your choice outside of these contexts?
If we follow this type of logic, most of our actions on earth can be purely attributed from experience.[/quote]
“You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.”
Your about to enter a rabbit hole there , boy.[/quote]
You two have some logical arguments, and I see what you all are saying. I might say it is a little general, but logical arguments non the less.[/quote]
Of course it’s general, but we can extrapolate it further. The majority of people follow their religion because there parents followed it as well. These kids “experienced” it at a young age. If you choose to follow another religion, some previous “experience” will guide you to another.
For instance, say you were raised in a family that did not practice religion. In college, you meet a group of friends who are highly religious. Based on your new experience with this group, you might find this religion enjoyable. One reason you could find it enjoyable is that you “experienced” something previously that tells you it’s enjoyable. If you find it repulsive, it could be because you “experienced” something from your past that makes it repulsive.
So really, are we just the current sum of our experiences? Does free will even exist?[/quote]
I see your point. I might not agree with it, but your experiences might be different than mine. I will say that most new Christians are first time Christians. Maybe not here in the US, but worldwide yes. How do you explain a Muslim becoming a Christian? By doing this his family will disown him. I say this because a friend of mine was raised Muslim. He even speaks a form of Arabic. He went to God directly to show him the truth. He used the Bible and asked questions of different Christian Pastors and Priest. Once he became a Christian he was disowned. His sister still spoke with him, and saw that what he had was the truth. She became a Christian. Then another sibling became a Christian, and finally both parents became Christians. This happening in a family is beyond comprehension and took a period of 15-20 years.
IMO One thing that people here in the US have an issue with Christianity is the Mysticism involved with it. The Mystery that is hard to proove. We so want to have proof of everything that is in the Bible. Third world countries and Eastern Philosophy traditions understand the mysticism. There are things that we will never be able to explain, but that is where faith comes in. From my experiences I am going to trust God to know what is best for me than my inferior brain. I will not trust another human being to know what is best for me, but God I will. I beleive that Jesus was both God and Man so since he is God I will trust him.
[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I’m not talking about the free will in acceptance of God. I’m talking about in our ordinary lives. I personally am under the belief that our actions are caused by previous experiences. Think about it: Why do you chose the food you will eat? Because you learned it tastes good or maybe healthy? So when you go out to eat, is it your taste buds or desire to be healthy your driving motive or is it entirely your choice outside of these contexts?
If we follow this type of logic, most of our actions on earth can be purely attributed from experience.[/quote]
“You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.”
Your about to enter a rabbit hole there , boy.[/quote]
So what about you Clamp? I am offering you the Red Pill. Would you accept it, or would you prefer the Blue Pill that has worked for so long?
Lets say a human was beat as a child. No everyone will act the same after that experience. Some will decide that they were beat and will beat their children, or spouse, etc. Others may decide to be extremely submissive because they don’t want to anger anyone. Others still may try to be nice to everyone they meet because they don’t think anyone deserves what they went through. And yet still others may take a proactive approach and reach out to organizations that help people stand up against abuse. Do you see how you can have so many end results from the “same” (relatively speaking) experience? Line of thinking goes: stimulus —>time to process and formulate a reaction—>reaction. If you choose take away that center portion, you can (and many people do), however THAT is removing your free will. Which in itself is a choice.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I’m not talking about the free will in acceptance of God. I’m talking about in our ordinary lives. I personally am under the belief that our actions are caused by previous experiences. Think about it: Why do you chose the food you will eat? Because you learned it tastes good or maybe healthy? So when you go out to eat, is it your taste buds or desire to be healthy your driving motive or is it entirely your choice outside of these contexts?
If we follow this type of logic, most of our actions on earth can be purely attributed from experience.[/quote]
“You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.”
Your about to enter a rabbit hole there , boy.[/quote]
You two have some logical arguments, and I see what you all are saying. I might say it is a little general, but logical arguments non the less.[/quote]
Of course it’s general, but we can extrapolate it further. The majority of people follow their religion because there parents followed it as well. These kids “experienced” it at a young age. If you choose to follow another religion, some previous “experience” will guide you to another.
For instance, say you were raised in a family that did not practice religion. In college, you meet a group of friends who are highly religious. Based on your new experience with this group, you might find this religion enjoyable. One reason you could find it enjoyable is that you “experienced” something previously that tells you it’s enjoyable. If you find it repulsive, it could be because you “experienced” something from your past that makes it repulsive.
So really, are we just the current sum of our experiences? Does free will even exist?[/quote]
I see your point. I might not agree with it, but your experiences might be different than mine. I will say that most new Christians are first time Christians. Maybe not here in the US, but worldwide yes. How do you explain a Muslim becoming a Christian? By doing this his family will disown him. I say this because a friend of mine was raised Muslim. He even speaks a form of Arabic. He went to God directly to show him the truth. He used the Bible and asked questions of different Christian Pastors and Priest. Once he became a Christian he was disowned. His sister still spoke with him, and saw that what he had was the truth. She became a Christian. Then another sibling became a Christian, and finally both parents became Christians. This happening in a family is beyond comprehension and took a period of 15-20 years.
IMO One thing that people here in the US have an issue with Christianity is the Mysticism involved with it. The Mystery that is hard to proove. We so want to have proof of everything that is in the Bible. Third world countries and Eastern Philosophy traditions understand the mysticism. There are things that we will never be able to explain, but that is where faith comes in. From my experiences I am going to trust God to know what is best for me than my inferior brain. I will not trust another human being to know what is best for me, but God I will. I beleive that Jesus was both God and Man so since he is God I will trust him.[/quote]
You and your friends experiences have determined your actions. This only further supports what I’m saying. Free will is an idea that doesn’t work. Experience is the driver.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Lets say a human was beat as a child. No everyone will act the same after that experience. Some will decide that they were beat and will beat their children, or spouse, etc. Others may decide to be extremely submissive because they don’t want to anger anyone. Others still may try to be nice to everyone they meet because they don’t think anyone deserves what they went through. And yet still others may take a proactive approach and reach out to organizations that help people stand up against abuse. Do you see how you can have so many end results from the “same” (relatively speaking) experience? Line of thinking goes: stimulus —>time to process and formulate a reaction—>reaction. If you choose take away that center portion, you can (and many people do), however THAT is removing your free will. Which in itself is a choice.[/quote]
I disagree and did not discount that middle option. Think about this, where does that input for the middle “time to process” part come from? It comes from previous experiences. The reason why that kid can go so many different ways is that he could have had other experiences that effected his decision after the beating. Perhaps he saw a friend that was beaten and doesn’t want to end up bitter like him. If he didn’t see his friend beat, but only saw him happy, he would resent him for not having an abusive father.
If you were to have two clones that lived in a cage until they were 5 (living exactly same experiences) and then you beat them, how could they produce different responses? The experiences that guide their decisions are exactly the same.