God and Hell

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Petermus wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Okay Petermus. But what about people who have absolutely no knowledge of Christ? For instance, what if someone living in some far-off land who believes in the same religion as all of his ancestors dies. Does he get into Heaven? What if his concept of good, the only one he has ever known or had the ability to know, is completely at odds with what God requires of us to get into Heaven? Is this guy an extenuating circumstance tha gets in, or does God reject him?[/quote]

I think that is an appropriate question, and one we may never be able to answer since we are not God, but I would like to hear others thoughts on this as well.

Romans 1:20 pretty much states that Creation speaks to who God is, and leaves all man without excuse. Christians send Missionaries all over the world to try and spread the Gospel to all people. You would think we would be getting close to reaching all, but there are statistics showing several thousand people groups have not been reached.

On another point we Christians beleive there is only one unpardonable sin and that is the denial of Christ. It is one thing to have never heard, but it is entirely different if you have heard and refuse to beleive.[/quote]

But look at the way some of these missionaries have spread the word of God in the past. Many missionaries have ended up subjugating and/or killing those who they spread the word to. The West Indies and South America come to mind. If I were an ancient Aztec, and I have been taught about God by the Spanish, and I reject God rather than reject centuries and centuries of ancestral beliefs and traditions, is this bad? What about today? With things like sex scandals constantly being exposed within the Catholic Church, is it bad if I reject the existence of Christ from someone or some group whose leaders, on the surface, appear to be living a lifestyle completely at odds with what they are teaching?

There is no way for the missionaries to have proven the existence of God. That, to me, is the essence of faith; believing in something despite not knowing if it’s all for naught. Believing that what you are doing is good and then doing it without concrete proof that you will be rewarded for it. In a way, to have true faith and to act good in a manner that supercedes motivation of reward is to acknowledge that there is a possibility that God does not exist, but that you will follow the teachings of the Bible anyways because you believe in your heart that those teachings are the correct way to live.

I’ve heard people, when presented with this theory of mine, say that they KNOW God exists because they’ve talked with him. So who are those who have talked to Allah or Buddha or Confucius really talking to? How do we know who is right and who is wrong? Isn’t it possible that our “talks” with God are simply experiences that we don’t understand at all and so we refer to these experiences as proof of God’s existence in order to confirm within ourselves that we are doing good and that we WILL be rewarded for it?

If the Wizard of Oz were to tell me to not kill thy neighbor, I can understand why that is right. If I pull the curtain back and realize that the Wizard is just some old man with a bunch of buttons and levers, that doesn’t detract from my belief that thou shalt not kill. If it does, I’m judging what good behavior is based on who says it’s good, not whether or not it actually is good or not. What is right is eternal, it isn’t just created out of thin air. If some three year old girl tells me that E=MC squared, it carries the same validity as if Einstein were to tell me, because no matter who it comes from, it’s true.

As I’ve stated in various threads here before, I belong to a 12-step program. When I first entered the program, I struggled with the spirituality aspect of it (belief in a Higher Power is necessary in AA) because I did not believe in “God” as Christians did. I went to a Catholic school from k-8grade, so it wasn’t from a lack of familiarity of God. But when I began to accept that I can fully believe in and follow the teachings of Jesus without having to believe in his divinity, my spirituality grew immensely. I accept that I may be wrong about God, but this does not detract from my beliefs in the teachings of Jesus. I don’t need to know whether or not God exists to understand why treating others as I would have them treat me is a good way to live. That’s my faith: I accept that I may be wrong about Jesus, but I have FAITH that despite my unwillingness to believe in His divinity, if I follow his teachings I will be rewarded when I die and throughout my life.[/quote]

I am not going to discuss the first paragraph. That happened centuries ago, and the Christian community have seen the errors of their ways, and have changed the way Missionairies work. I agree that it was bad the way all that went down.

I see your point on the rest of what you say. I agree that all this Christianity could be a bunch of crap, and I can see why people feel this way. My only objection is that Christianity is the only religion that being Subjective Truth right now will one day be Objective Truth. The issue is when it becomes Objective Truth it will be too late for people to accept it. All other religions are based on works so if you are good you will go to heaven.

I personally have condemned people and that should not be done. I have even done it here at T-Nation. I have had people tell me I am a sinner because I grew up playing D&D. I am really disinfranchised with the Chruch as a whole, because they spend their money not on helping people but salaries and building bigger buildings. I do give my money to the church only because that is what God asks me to do. I beleive if the Church would do what it preaches we would not have needed any welfare program in this country. I try to look past the human sinful nature and turn my eyes to Jesus for what I should do. I do not put my faith in humans, but in Christ. Humans are searching for the truth, and I hope and pray they all find it. God does not speak to me, but he does nudge me in the direction I should go. I am willing to listen to discipline and turn back to him. [/quote]

Atrocious things are still done by some missionaries but obviously doing something and claiming it is done in christ…doesnt mean God approves. Every religion has done this in some way.The truth is that there is only a small number and many are dedicated wonderful people.

I personally do not like the catholic church, not just because im a protestant but because of whats happened especially recently. You can attribute this to the churches carelessness but when I think about Catholicism… Im skeptical about many peoples faith. Catholicism like Judaism has become for a huge number of people a social identity and not true faith. People attend christian colleges and at least some have gone into ministry when they truly lack in their faith and are aware of it. When conviction falters, its much easier for satan to influence sin in your life.

The use of tithes is a bit controversial with many non believers because… im not giving money to the church so they can buy the people gold and jewels etc. Many churches though use much of the money they get to support missions etc. My church actually built a new church in India before building our own church, we previously met in a school auditorium for 7 or 8 years.So it definitely should be put in context of use. The other thing is the bible does say to build grand temples in God’s honor[/quote]

Good points. I have seen several balance sheets of large and small congregation churches of different denominations and when I see Salaries and Building total more than 75% I get a little sceptical of who the money is really benefiting. Usually the head pastor that runs all the bank accounts.[/quote]

Every church I’ve ever been to allows the person donating to specify what the money goes to. Unless they lie about it I guess.

62

Frankly im pleasntly suprized this has yet to really turn into any kind of flame fest with moronic reasoning or just plain bs. Nice talking to you guys :)lol. I deal with a lot of people who dont know anything and dont feel like learning…they just shoot slander at me or other christians I know without having been to church once or touched a bible. I really enjoy intelligent conversations about God regardless of whether the other person is skeptical or not.

Tithes. VVVVVVV

I also see my church and many others giving the option of specifying the use of tithes for different things. We do have a church fund, that was used to build the church and maintain it but we also have several missionaries we support and projects like giving more than 500 stuff animals to the local police here in springfield to give to children in domestic abuse situations etc.

Hmm, upon further study Ive found a passage in the bible that states - You should tithe (means 10%) of your money to your house of worship. “Offerings” are additional money or things given to other people in need or w.e. So tithing is first, then offerings. Apparently you should also tithe on a weekly basis. God even addresses issues like not having the money to pay 10%, paying less is considered not tithing etc.
Google tithing and its all there.

its funny actually, I go to a college christian club, techniquely campus ministries but its less paper work to call it a club, but anyway. We were talking about how witnessing or talking to people about God causes you to learn the bible even better. I definitely learned something new lol. I ususally wait until some time during the month to tithe a large sum and just try to get close or a little over 10%. I think from now on ill be more serious about being accurate and faithful with my tithing.

63

Tithing

It is interesting to note that no where in the Greek Scriptures is it every brought up that we should tithe. Instead, it gives us principles to follow:

2 Cor 8:12

For if the readiness is there first, it is especially acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what a person does not have.

2 Cor 9:7

Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

To be forced to give, or, to give under “compulsion” goes against what the Bible teaches. We are encouraged to give what we want, from our heart, cheerfully.

64

What the hell? Why do the mods insist on leaving this is PWI?

I’m pretty sure this should really be in GAL, this has nothing to do with Politics or World Issues.

65

[quote]clip11 wrote:
I went to the cemetery yesterday to inspect my grandparents headstone, to make sure it wasnt sinking or in disrepair. While I was driving my car through the cemetery, I noticed what probably was thousands of headstones there. My grandparents were hardcore pentecostal christians, especially my grandmother. She didnt believe in going to casinos (she called them gambling houses)going to the movies, drinking, women wearing pants, etc. etc. And i was thinking, if she was correct, then she would certainly be in heaven right now.

But then I thought, what about everyone else? Im sure its people buried there that are (or were) muslims, atheists, agnostics, jehovas witnesses, or people who didnt care one way or the other. Is God punishing them with an eternal torment in hell? Ive heard that Gods justice demands punishment, but is eternal torment for believing the wrong religion or no religion at all righteous justice? There may even be people buried there that during their lifetime were just evil people, but is infinite torment for finite behavior justice at all?[/quote]

We are only specks of dust, particles, atoms floating on a bigger particle(earth) that is part of a bigger particle(galaxy) that is part of a bigger particle(universe). We are insignificant. In this universe the earth is just an electron revolving around a nucleus(Sun).

With the incredible unfathomable size of our universe, do you think we are the only life forms in it? There are trillions of solar systems out in the black, yet we are the only special speck of dust that has life? Do these other life forms have the same God? Are they intelligent, human or something else?

What if you flew to the end of the universe, found a hole that opened up into a whole other universe? Do the life forms there have the same God?

At a time in the future our nucleus(sun) will die, this planet and its life will no longer exist. Will the entire universe be devoid of life, if so what was the purpose of all it’s vastness just to hold one planet with life? Will every soul be granted a reprieve since the Earth no longer exists? Were Gods created out of mans arrogance or his fear or his hope that his existence means something in the grand scheme of things? As you can see our existence and our universe hold more questions than answers.

66

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:

[quote]clip11 wrote:
I went to the cemetery yesterday to inspect my grandparents headstone, to make sure it wasnt sinking or in disrepair. While I was driving my car through the cemetery, I noticed what probably was thousands of headstones there. My grandparents were hardcore pentecostal christians, especially my grandmother. She didnt believe in going to casinos (she called them gambling houses)going to the movies, drinking, women wearing pants, etc. etc. And i was thinking, if she was correct, then she would certainly be in heaven right now.

But then I thought, what about everyone else? Im sure its people buried there that are (or were) muslims, atheists, agnostics, jehovas witnesses, or people who didnt care one way or the other. Is God punishing them with an eternal torment in hell? Ive heard that Gods justice demands punishment, but is eternal torment for believing the wrong religion or no religion at all righteous justice? There may even be people buried there that during their lifetime were just evil people, but is infinite torment for finite behavior justice at all?[/quote]

We are only specks of dust, particles, atoms floating on a bigger particle(earth) that is part of a bigger particle(galaxy) that is part of a bigger particle(universe). We are insignificant. In this universe the earth is just an electron revolving around a nucleus(Sun). With the incredible unfathomable size of our universe, do you think we are the only life forms in it? There are trillions of solar systems out in the black, yet we are the only special speck of dust that has life? Do these other life forms have the same God? Are they intelligent, human or something else? What if you flew to the end of the universe, found a hole that opened up into a whole other universe? Do the life forms there have the same God?

At a time in the future our nucleus(sun) will die, this planet and its life will no longer exist. Will the entire universe be devoid of life, if so what was the purpose of all it’s vastness just to hold one planet with life? Will every soul be granted a reprieve since the Earth no longer exists? Were Gods created out of mans arrogance or his fear or his hope that his existence means something in the grand scheme of things? As you can see our existence and our universe hold more questions than answers. [/quote]

You ask some good questions there. We actually have to have evidence that there is intellegent life out there. At this point there is no shred of evidence there is intellegent life out there.

Could I be wrong? Sure. I will conceed that. But what if I am right? This is the question no non believer will ever answer.

67

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Petermus wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Okay Petermus. But what about people who have absolutely no knowledge of Christ? For instance, what if someone living in some far-off land who believes in the same religion as all of his ancestors dies. Does he get into Heaven? What if his concept of good, the only one he has ever known or had the ability to know, is completely at odds with what God requires of us to get into Heaven? Is this guy an extenuating circumstance tha gets in, or does God reject him?[/quote]

I think that is an appropriate question, and one we may never be able to answer since we are not God, but I would like to hear others thoughts on this as well.

Romans 1:20 pretty much states that Creation speaks to who God is, and leaves all man without excuse. Christians send Missionaries all over the world to try and spread the Gospel to all people. You would think we would be getting close to reaching all, but there are statistics showing several thousand people groups have not been reached.

On another point we Christians beleive there is only one unpardonable sin and that is the denial of Christ. It is one thing to have never heard, but it is entirely different if you have heard and refuse to beleive.[/quote]

But look at the way some of these missionaries have spread the word of God in the past. Many missionaries have ended up subjugating and/or killing those who they spread the word to. The West Indies and South America come to mind. If I were an ancient Aztec, and I have been taught about God by the Spanish, and I reject God rather than reject centuries and centuries of ancestral beliefs and traditions, is this bad? What about today? With things like sex scandals constantly being exposed within the Catholic Church, is it bad if I reject the existence of Christ from someone or some group whose leaders, on the surface, appear to be living a lifestyle completely at odds with what they are teaching?

There is no way for the missionaries to have proven the existence of God. That, to me, is the essence of faith; believing in something despite not knowing if it’s all for naught. Believing that what you are doing is good and then doing it without concrete proof that you will be rewarded for it. In a way, to have true faith and to act good in a manner that supercedes motivation of reward is to acknowledge that there is a possibility that God does not exist, but that you will follow the teachings of the Bible anyways because you believe in your heart that those teachings are the correct way to live.

I’ve heard people, when presented with this theory of mine, say that they KNOW God exists because they’ve talked with him. So who are those who have talked to Allah or Buddha or Confucius really talking to? How do we know who is right and who is wrong? Isn’t it possible that our “talks” with God are simply experiences that we don’t understand at all and so we refer to these experiences as proof of God’s existence in order to confirm within ourselves that we are doing good and that we WILL be rewarded for it?

If the Wizard of Oz were to tell me to not kill thy neighbor, I can understand why that is right. If I pull the curtain back and realize that the Wizard is just some old man with a bunch of buttons and levers, that doesn’t detract from my belief that thou shalt not kill. If it does, I’m judging what good behavior is based on who says it’s good, not whether or not it actually is good or not. What is right is eternal, it isn’t just created out of thin air. If some three year old girl tells me that E=MC squared, it carries the same validity as if Einstein were to tell me, because no matter who it comes from, it’s true.

As I’ve stated in various threads here before, I belong to a 12-step program. When I first entered the program, I struggled with the spirituality aspect of it (belief in a Higher Power is necessary in AA) because I did not believe in “God” as Christians did. I went to a Catholic school from k-8grade, so it wasn’t from a lack of familiarity of God. But when I began to accept that I can fully believe in and follow the teachings of Jesus without having to believe in his divinity, my spirituality grew immensely. I accept that I may be wrong about God, but this does not detract from my beliefs in the teachings of Jesus. I don’t need to know whether or not God exists to understand why treating others as I would have them treat me is a good way to live. That’s my faith: I accept that I may be wrong about Jesus, but I have FAITH that despite my unwillingness to believe in His divinity, if I follow his teachings I will be rewarded when I die and throughout my life.[/quote]

I am not going to discuss the first paragraph. That happened centuries ago, and the Christian community have seen the errors of their ways, and have changed the way Missionairies work. I agree that it was bad the way all that went down.

I see your point on the rest of what you say. I agree that all this Christianity could be a bunch of crap, and I can see why people feel this way. My only objection is that Christianity is the only religion that being Subjective Truth right now will one day be Objective Truth. The issue is when it becomes Objective Truth it will be too late for people to accept it. All other religions are based on works so if you are good you will go to heaven.

I personally have condemned people and that should not be done. I have even done it here at T-Nation. I have had people tell me I am a sinner because I grew up playing D&D. I am really disinfranchised with the Chruch as a whole, because they spend their money not on helping people but salaries and building bigger buildings. I do give my money to the church only because that is what God asks me to do. I beleive if the Church would do what it preaches we would not have needed any welfare program in this country. I try to look past the human sinful nature and turn my eyes to Jesus for what I should do. I do not put my faith in humans, but in Christ. Humans are searching for the truth, and I hope and pray they all find it. God does not speak to me, but he does nudge me in the direction I should go. I am willing to listen to discipline and turn back to him. [/quote]

Atrocious things are still done by some missionaries but obviously doing something and claiming it is done in christ…doesnt mean God approves. Every religion has done this in some way.The truth is that there is only a small number and many are dedicated wonderful people.

I personally do not like the catholic church, not just because im a protestant but because of whats happened especially recently. You can attribute this to the churches carelessness but when I think about Catholicism… Im skeptical about many peoples faith. Catholicism like Judaism has become for a huge number of people a social identity and not true faith. People attend christian colleges and at least some have gone into ministry when they truly lack in their faith and are aware of it. When conviction falters, its much easier for satan to influence sin in your life.

The use of tithes is a bit controversial with many non believers because… im not giving money to the church so they can buy the people gold and jewels etc. Many churches though use much of the money they get to support missions etc. My church actually built a new church in India before building our own church, we previously met in a school auditorium for 7 or 8 years.So it definitely should be put in context of use. The other thing is the bible does say to build grand temples in God’s honor[/quote]

Good points. I have seen several balance sheets of large and small congregation churches of different denominations and when I see Salaries and Building total more than 75% I get a little sceptical of who the money is really benefiting. Usually the head pastor that runs all the bank accounts.[/quote]

Every church I’ve ever been to allows the person donating to specify what the money goes to. Unless they lie about it I guess.[/quote]

They do let you specify. Do the churches you go to have a budget? What happens is if someone designates the money to go to the youth for example. They then take money out of the general fund that was for the youth and put it in the Senior Adult coffers. This is just basic accounting. The church has to meet their liabilities evenly according to the budget. I put my tithe in the general fund which allows the church to use the funds as they need. I have my issues with Churches and how they use their money, but it is up to God to discipline misuse of funds. I am not saying we should not tithe, I just feel the church could be more efficient with the money to actually teach someone how to fish.

68

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Tithing

It is interesting to note that no where in the Greek Scriptures is it every brought up that we should tithe. Instead, it gives us principles to follow:

2 Cor 8:12

For if the readiness is there first, it is especially acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what a person does not have.

2 Cor 9:7

Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

To be forced to give, or, to give under “compulsion” goes against what the Bible teaches. We are encouraged to give what we want, from our heart, cheerfully.[/quote]

Honest, dont mean to be an ass, but I find it amazing how you use the scripture to fit your needs. You will use the Hebrew Scripture sometimes and then the Greek other times to get your point across. You have to use the entire scripture to interpret what is being said. Jesus even said, “he did not come to abolish the law.” The Hebrew Scriptures are very adimate about tithing.

69

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:

[quote]clip11 wrote:
I went to the cemetery yesterday to inspect my grandparents headstone, to make sure it wasnt sinking or in disrepair. While I was driving my car through the cemetery, I noticed what probably was thousands of headstones there. My grandparents were hardcore pentecostal christians, especially my grandmother. She didnt believe in going to casinos (she called them gambling houses)going to the movies, drinking, women wearing pants, etc. etc. And i was thinking, if she was correct, then she would certainly be in heaven right now.

But then I thought, what about everyone else? Im sure its people buried there that are (or were) muslims, atheists, agnostics, jehovas witnesses, or people who didnt care one way or the other. Is God punishing them with an eternal torment in hell? Ive heard that Gods justice demands punishment, but is eternal torment for believing the wrong religion or no religion at all righteous justice? There may even be people buried there that during their lifetime were just evil people, but is infinite torment for finite behavior justice at all?[/quote]

We are only specks of dust, particles, atoms floating on a bigger particle(earth) that is part of a bigger particle(galaxy) that is part of a bigger particle(universe). We are insignificant. In this universe the earth is just an electron revolving around a nucleus(Sun). With the incredible unfathomable size of our universe, do you think we are the only life forms in it? There are trillions of solar systems out in the black, yet we are the only special speck of dust that has life? Do these other life forms have the same God? Are they intelligent, human or something else? What if you flew to the end of the universe, found a hole that opened up into a whole other universe? Do the life forms there have the same God?

At a time in the future our nucleus(sun) will die, this planet and its life will no longer exist. Will the entire universe be devoid of life, if so what was the purpose of all it’s vastness just to hold one planet with life? Will every soul be granted a reprieve since the Earth no longer exists? Were Gods created out of mans arrogance or his fear or his hope that his existence means something in the grand scheme of things? As you can see our existence and our universe hold more questions than answers. [/quote]

You ask some good questions there. We actually have to have evidence that there is intellegent life out there. At this point there is no shred of evidence there is intellegent life out there.

Could I be wrong? Sure. I will conceed that. But what if I am right? This is the question no non believer will ever answer.[/quote]

If your right then my questions still remain? What is the purpose of such a vastness of space, why create such size if only life is on such a small particle of it. I don’t think we will see evidence of other life forms due to this vastness, no one can live long enough or travel fast enough to discover if something else exists many light years away.

70

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Tithing

It is interesting to note that no where in the Greek Scriptures is it every brought up that we should tithe. Instead, it gives us principles to follow:

2 Cor 8:12

For if the readiness is there first, it is especially acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what a person does not have.

2 Cor 9:7

Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

To be forced to give, or, to give under “compulsion” goes against what the Bible teaches. We are encouraged to give what we want, from our heart, cheerfully.[/quote]

Honest, dont mean to be an ass, but I find it amazing how you use the scripture to fit your needs. You will use the Hebrew Scripture sometimes and then the Greek other times to get your point across. You have to use the entire scripture to interpret what is being said. Jesus even said, “he did not come to abolish the law.” The Hebrew Scriptures are very adimate about tithing.[/quote]

The Hebrew Scriptures were also very strict on the Sabbath keeping. What does that mean?

71

Stated (concerning tithes),

“…You have to use the entire scripture to interpret what is being said. Jesus even said, ‘he did not come to abolish the law.’ The Hebrew Scriptures are very adimate about tithing.”

First, I believe in tithing and the giving of offerings. Secondly, though, I do not believe that certain peoples (those living check to check) of church membership should be intimidated to do so with the following, “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” (Malachi 3:8-10).

Using the above Scripture, the church members are told to tithe faithfully, expecting God to fulfill their needs. Yet, as that saying, “what is good for the goose is good for the gander.”

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 “At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.”

Every third year the tithe was to be stored in local towns rather than taken to the sanctuary. This tithe provided support for the Levites who had no property, inheritance or secular occupation. In this way, generous support was given to the Levites including the aliens, orphans and widows. In this manner, provision was made for the Israelites to extend love to their neighbors as they shared what God had given them. Doing this they had the assurance “that the Lord (their) God may bless (them) in all the work of (their) hands,”

What church today, every third year, would be willing to give up all the tithes of that year to the less fortunate and look upon God to fulfill it’s needs.

72

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
This is a very difficult question to answer and not piss anyone off, because wars have been started fighting about this very question.

I beleive getting into heaven is very easy and not hard at all. I will keep my religious beliefs to myself but many on here might already know them. I see the point that Lordcliff has pointed out by “How can anyone be sure?” Most religions from my research rely on our own works here on earth to get us into heaven. That is really scarry to think about because I do a lot of bad things, but murder and rape are not any of them.

I believe that the Bible does show us the path to getting to heaven, and it is very easy, but the path after the acceptance is the road that is less traveled. We as humans really do not know what sin even on a relatively small scale, stealing a pack of gum, does to separate us from God. Our finite minds can not fathum the infinite goodness of God. Just my thoughts.

[/quote]

i’m on board with you man.

believeing without seeing is what faith is.

73

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
If there is a Heaven, I just hope it’s on the Grassy Knoll on November 22nd 1963. If I went to Heaven and found out once and for all where the pyramids came from, who shot JFK and RFK and so on, and then I was cast into Hell, I’d be cool with that.[/quote]

Just wondering are you 12 years old?

74

[quote]iflyboats wrote:
My Mom always tells me that our family will be together forever in Heaven.

That sounds a lot more like Hell to me…[/quote]

Sort of like having to pick up your room? Uh huh (nods head)

75

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated (concerning tithes),

“…You have to use the entire scripture to interpret what is being said. Jesus even said, ‘he did not come to abolish the law.’ The Hebrew Scriptures are very adimate about tithing.”

First, I believe in tithing and the giving of offerings. Secondly, though, I do not believe that certain peoples (those living check to check) of church membership should be intimidated to do so with the following, “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” (Malachi 3:8-10).

Using the above Scripture, the church members are told to tithe faithfully, expecting God to fulfill their needs. Yet, as that saying, “what is good for the goose is good for the gander.”

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 “At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.”

Every third year the tithe was to be stored in local towns rather than taken to the sanctuary. This tithe provided support for the Levites who had no property, inheritance or secular occupation. In this way, generous support was given to the Levites including the aliens, orphans and widows. In this manner, provision was made for the Israelites to extend love to their neighbors as they shared what God had given them. Doing this they had the assurance “that the Lord (their) God may bless (them) in all the work of (their) hands,”

What church today, every third year, would be willing to give up all the tithes of that year to the less fortunate and look upon God to fulfill it’s needs.[/quote]

My point exactly. I want to help out the ministers/pastors/priests/staff members of a church. They work their butts off 7 days a week.

76

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Tithing

It is interesting to note that no where in the Greek Scriptures is it every brought up that we should tithe. Instead, it gives us principles to follow:

2 Cor 8:12

For if the readiness is there first, it is especially acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what a person does not have.

2 Cor 9:7

Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

To be forced to give, or, to give under “compulsion” goes against what the Bible teaches. We are encouraged to give what we want, from our heart, cheerfully.[/quote]

Honest, dont mean to be an ass, but I find it amazing how you use the scripture to fit your needs. You will use the Hebrew Scripture sometimes and then the Greek other times to get your point across. You have to use the entire scripture to interpret what is being said. Jesus even said, “he did not come to abolish the law.” The Hebrew Scriptures are very adimate about tithing.[/quote]

The Hebrew Scriptures were also very strict on the Sabbath keeping. What does that mean?[/quote]

It says to rest and keep the Sabbath Holy. What does that mean?

77

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:

[quote]clip11 wrote:
I went to the cemetery yesterday to inspect my grandparents headstone, to make sure it wasnt sinking or in disrepair. While I was driving my car through the cemetery, I noticed what probably was thousands of headstones there. My grandparents were hardcore pentecostal christians, especially my grandmother. She didnt believe in going to casinos (she called them gambling houses)going to the movies, drinking, women wearing pants, etc. etc. And i was thinking, if she was correct, then she would certainly be in heaven right now.

But then I thought, what about everyone else? Im sure its people buried there that are (or were) muslims, atheists, agnostics, jehovas witnesses, or people who didnt care one way or the other. Is God punishing them with an eternal torment in hell? Ive heard that Gods justice demands punishment, but is eternal torment for believing the wrong religion or no religion at all righteous justice? There may even be people buried there that during their lifetime were just evil people, but is infinite torment for finite behavior justice at all?[/quote]

We are only specks of dust, particles, atoms floating on a bigger particle(earth) that is part of a bigger particle(galaxy) that is part of a bigger particle(universe). We are insignificant. In this universe the earth is just an electron revolving around a nucleus(Sun). With the incredible unfathomable size of our universe, do you think we are the only life forms in it? There are trillions of solar systems out in the black, yet we are the only special speck of dust that has life? Do these other life forms have the same God? Are they intelligent, human or something else? What if you flew to the end of the universe, found a hole that opened up into a whole other universe? Do the life forms there have the same God?

At a time in the future our nucleus(sun) will die, this planet and its life will no longer exist. Will the entire universe be devoid of life, if so what was the purpose of all it’s vastness just to hold one planet with life? Will every soul be granted a reprieve since the Earth no longer exists? Were Gods created out of mans arrogance or his fear or his hope that his existence means something in the grand scheme of things? As you can see our existence and our universe hold more questions than answers. [/quote]

You ask some good questions there. We actually have to have evidence that there is intellegent life out there. At this point there is no shred of evidence there is intellegent life out there.

Could I be wrong? Sure. I will conceed that. But what if I am right? This is the question no non believer will ever answer.[/quote]

If your right then my questions still remain? What is the purpose of such a vastness of space, why create such size if only life is on such a small particle of it. I don’t think we will see evidence of other life forms due to this vastness, no one can live long enough or travel fast enough to discover if something else exists many light years away.[/quote]

There are a lot of reasons, and I personally can not fathom the vastness of space. Everytime we humans build a better telescope we see farther than ever before, and then we see that many more galaxies. I agree the probability of life on other planets could be rather high using Math. But I would say that even though the vastness and wonders of the cosmos and how it was created, but yet God loves us so much being nothing more than a spec on a spec traveling around a spec, in a spec, that is in another spec. Even though we are that small yet we are loved beyond belief, and he listens to us and wants what is best for us. To me that is much bigger than all the stars and galaxies in the universe. Maybe the vastness of space just proves the power of God. I thinks he likes to impress us. He might like to show off and say I created this vastness, yet I created you perfect in all your ways. Go figure.

78

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:

[quote]clip11 wrote:
I went to the cemetery yesterday to inspect my grandparents headstone, to make sure it wasnt sinking or in disrepair. While I was driving my car through the cemetery, I noticed what probably was thousands of headstones there. My grandparents were hardcore pentecostal christians, especially my grandmother. She didnt believe in going to casinos (she called them gambling houses)going to the movies, drinking, women wearing pants, etc. etc. And i was thinking, if she was correct, then she would certainly be in heaven right now.

But then I thought, what about everyone else? Im sure its people buried there that are (or were) muslims, atheists, agnostics, jehovas witnesses, or people who didnt care one way or the other. Is God punishing them with an eternal torment in hell? Ive heard that Gods justice demands punishment, but is eternal torment for believing the wrong religion or no religion at all righteous justice? There may even be people buried there that during their lifetime were just evil people, but is infinite torment for finite behavior justice at all?[/quote]

We are only specks of dust, particles, atoms floating on a bigger particle(earth) that is part of a bigger particle(galaxy) that is part of a bigger particle(universe). We are insignificant. In this universe the earth is just an electron revolving around a nucleus(Sun). With the incredible unfathomable size of our universe, do you think we are the only life forms in it? There are trillions of solar systems out in the black, yet we are the only special speck of dust that has life? Do these other life forms have the same God? Are they intelligent, human or something else? What if you flew to the end of the universe, found a hole that opened up into a whole other universe? Do the life forms there have the same God?

At a time in the future our nucleus(sun) will die, this planet and its life will no longer exist. Will the entire universe be devoid of life, if so what was the purpose of all it’s vastness just to hold one planet with life? Will every soul be granted a reprieve since the Earth no longer exists? Were Gods created out of mans arrogance or his fear or his hope that his existence means something in the grand scheme of things? As you can see our existence and our universe hold more questions than answers. [/quote]

You ask some good questions there. We actually have to have evidence that there is intellegent life out there. At this point there is no shred of evidence there is intellegent life out there.

Could I be wrong? Sure. I will conceed that. But what if I am right? This is the question no non believer will ever answer.[/quote]

If your right then my questions still remain? What is the purpose of such a vastness of space, why create such size if only life is on such a small particle of it. I don’t think we will see evidence of other life forms due to this vastness, no one can live long enough or travel fast enough to discover if something else exists many light years away.[/quote]

The scriptures focus on life here on earth and all the many complications which we face in our everyday lives. We argue and disagree on so many levels with the information which was given to us thank God more about the universe outside of our planet wasn’t and isn’t revealed to us. I mean we all started from one church, then came the schism and the Orthodox of the East and the catholics of the West split. Later we saw protestentism and we have had further breaks and sects since. Imagine if we had information regarding the rest of the universe. I don’t think our intellects would be able to comprehend it, let alone do anything of value with that information.

79

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Tithing

It is interesting to note that no where in the Greek Scriptures is it every brought up that we should tithe. Instead, it gives us principles to follow:

2 Cor 8:12

For if the readiness is there first, it is especially acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what a person does not have.

2 Cor 9:7

Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

To be forced to give, or, to give under “compulsion” goes against what the Bible teaches. We are encouraged to give what we want, from our heart, cheerfully.[/quote]

Honest, dont mean to be an ass, but I find it amazing how you use the scripture to fit your needs. You will use the Hebrew Scripture sometimes and then the Greek other times to get your point across. You have to use the entire scripture to interpret what is being said. Jesus even said, “he did not come to abolish the law.” The Hebrew Scriptures are very adimate about tithing.[/quote]

The Hebrew Scriptures were also very strict on the Sabbath keeping. What does that mean?[/quote]

It says to rest and keep the Sabbath Holy. What does that mean?[/quote]

No work to be done on sabbath. Is that still kept today?

80

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
If there is a Heaven, I just hope it’s on the Grassy Knoll on November 22nd 1963. If I went to Heaven and found out once and for all where the pyramids came from, who shot JFK and RFK and so on, and then I was cast into Hell, I’d be cool with that.[/quote]

Just wondering are you 12 years old?[/quote]

Just wondering, are you incapable of humor?