[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you believe that humans have an eternal soul/being outside of the physical existence, and that the soul is in some way a continuance of our essence, why can we remember nothing of our spiritual selves BEFORE we were given physical existence?[/quote]
Memory is thought. Thought is part of the mind. The mind is created by the brain. And the brain is not eternal; only the soul.
Okay Petermus. But what about people who have absolutely no knowledge of Christ? For instance, what if someone living in some far-off land who believes in the same religion as all of his ancestors dies. Does he get into Heaven? What if his concept of good, the only one he has ever known or had the ability to know, is completely at odds with what God requires of us to get into Heaven? Is this guy an extenuating circumstance tha gets in, or does God reject him?
People make up all kinds of stupid shit. Then they start to believe it.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
If you behave well or do whatever the hell it is you’re supposed to do to earn a spot in Heaven simply to be in Heaven, is that virtuous? If fear of Hell is the motivating factor, not genuine concern for your fellow man, is that pious? I’d like to see some priests and whatnot start telling people that they might end up in hell no matter what, or that there may be no Heaven/Hell and that they may just die and that’s it. Then we’ll see how many act kindly toward others out of genuine kindness and how many are motivated by fear or some sort of reward. When we were kids, did we behave well around Christmas time so we could get presents, or did we do so simply because it was right?[/quote]
I agree with you whole heartily on this point. I heard a statistic from Billy Graham once, that he believes that somewhere around 20% of people that go to church will actually go to heaven. Fear motivates for only a short time. As Jesus stated in the scatering of the seed parable. Fear is the seed that was cast into the rock. God looks at the heart. The heart is what tells us what you care about.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Okay Petermus. But what about people who have absolutely no knowledge of Christ? For instance, what if someone living in some far-off land who believes in the same religion as all of his ancestors dies. Does he get into Heaven? What if his concept of good, the only one he has ever known or had the ability to know, is completely at odds with what God requires of us to get into Heaven? Is this guy an extenuating circumstance tha gets in, or does God reject him?[/quote]
I think that is an appropriate question, and one we may never be able to answer since we are not God, but I would like to hear others thoughts on this as well.
Romans 1:20 pretty much states that Creation speaks to who God is, and leaves all man without excuse. Christians send Missionaries all over the world to try and spread the Gospel to all people. You would think we would be getting close to reaching all, but there are statistics showing several thousand people groups have not been reached.
On another point we Christians beleive there is only one unpardonable sin and that is the denial of Christ. It is one thing to have never heard, but it is entirely different if you have heard and refuse to beleive.
This is a topic close to my heart. Death and afterlife is the ONLY thing that gives me anxiety. I do believe in Christianity but are open to other possible explanation. I was reading about Sylvia Brown and with her studies but I do not know what to believe now.
She has said herself she has come close to death and instead of floating “up” to heaven we step "2 feet above ground and to the side. In another dimension for souls to exist. But again how much merit there is I don’t know. She has countless interviews with people that have come close to death and experience the same thing or something similar.
[quote]Fuzzyapple wrote:
This is a topic close to my heart. Death and afterlife is the ONLY thing that gives me anxiety. I do believe in Christianity but are open to other possible explanation. I was reading about Sylvia Brown and with her studies but I do not know what to believe now.
She has said herself she has come close to death and instead of floating “up” to heaven we step "2 feet above ground and to the side. In another dimension for souls to exist. But again how much merit there is I don’t know. She has countless interviews with people that have come close to death and experience the same thing or something similar.[/quote]
If you want to avoid anxiety about death embrace the one true God and know that you will be going to heaven. The rest of this is just a distraction my friend.
[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you believe that humans have an eternal soul/being outside of the physical existence, and that the soul is in some way a continuance of our essence, why can we remember nothing of our spiritual selves BEFORE we were given physical existence?[/quote]
Memory is thought. Thought is part of the mind. The mind is created by the brain. And the brain is not eternal; only the soul.[/quote]
If there is no continuity between this life and the next, why should I care about the next?
If there is no consciousness as a spirit, what exactly is it’s existence?
2 Peter 3:13
There will be a new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting, according to his promise and in these righteousness is to dwell.
Matthew 6:9,10
"YOU must pray, then, this way: "'Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.
Both cases, there is a heaven and earth mentioned. What does this mean?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Fuzzyapple wrote:
This is a topic close to my heart. Death and afterlife is the ONLY thing that gives me anxiety. I do believe in Christianity but are open to other possible explanation. I was reading about Sylvia Brown and with her studies but I do not know what to believe now.
She has said herself she has come close to death and instead of floating “up” to heaven we step "2 feet above ground and to the side. In another dimension for souls to exist. But again how much merit there is I don’t know. She has countless interviews with people that have come close to death and experience the same thing or something similar.[/quote]
If you want to avoid anxiety about death embrace the one true God and know that you will be going to heaven. The rest of this is just a distraction my friend.[/quote]
If you’re an existentialist, fear of death is what makes life better.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Okay Petermus. But what about people who have absolutely no knowledge of Christ? For instance, what if someone living in some far-off land who believes in the same religion as all of his ancestors dies. Does he get into Heaven? What if his concept of good, the only one he has ever known or had the ability to know, is completely at odds with what God requires of us to get into Heaven? Is this guy an extenuating circumstance tha gets in, or does God reject him?[/quote]
I think that is an appropriate question, and one we may never be able to answer since we are not God, but I would like to hear others thoughts on this as well.
Romans 1:20 pretty much states that Creation speaks to who God is, and leaves all man without excuse. Christians send Missionaries all over the world to try and spread the Gospel to all people. You would think we would be getting close to reaching all, but there are statistics showing several thousand people groups have not been reached.
On another point we Christians beleive there is only one unpardonable sin and that is the denial of Christ. It is one thing to have never heard, but it is entirely different if you have heard and refuse to beleive.[/quote]
But look at the way some of these missionaries have spread the word of God in the past. Many missionaries have ended up subjugating and/or killing those who they spread the word to. The West Indies and South America come to mind. If I were an ancient Aztec, and I have been taught about God by the Spanish, and I reject God rather than reject centuries and centuries of ancestral beliefs and traditions, is this bad? What about today? With things like sex scandals constantly being exposed within the Catholic Church, is it bad if I reject the existence of Christ from someone or some group whose leaders, on the surface, appear to be living a lifestyle completely at odds with what they are teaching?
There is no way for the missionaries to have proven the existence of God. That, to me, is the essence of faith; believing in something despite not knowing if it’s all for naught. Believing that what you are doing is good and then doing it without concrete proof that you will be rewarded for it. In a way, to have true faith and to act good in a manner that supercedes motivation of reward is to acknowledge that there is a possibility that God does not exist, but that you will follow the teachings of the Bible anyways because you believe in your heart that those teachings are the correct way to live.
I’ve heard people, when presented with this theory of mine, say that they KNOW God exists because they’ve talked with him. So who are those who have talked to Allah or Buddha or Confucius really talking to? How do we know who is right and who is wrong? Isn’t it possible that our “talks” with God are simply experiences that we don’t understand at all and so we refer to these experiences as proof of God’s existence in order to confirm within ourselves that we are doing good and that we WILL be rewarded for it?
If the Wizard of Oz were to tell me to not kill thy neighbor, I can understand why that is right. If I pull the curtain back and realize that the Wizard is just some old man with a bunch of buttons and levers, that doesn’t detract from my belief that thou shalt not kill. If it does, I’m judging what good behavior is based on who says it’s good, not whether or not it actually is good or not. What is right is eternal, it isn’t just created out of thin air. If some three year old girl tells me that E=MC squared, it carries the same validity as if Einstein were to tell me, because no matter who it comes from, it’s true.
As I’ve stated in various threads here before, I belong to a 12-step program. When I first entered the program, I struggled with the spirituality aspect of it (belief in a Higher Power is necessary in AA) because I did not believe in “God” as Christians did. I went to a Catholic school from k-8grade, so it wasn’t from a lack of familiarity of God. But when I began to accept that I can fully believe in and follow the teachings of Jesus without having to believe in his divinity, my spirituality grew immensely. I accept that I may be wrong about God, but this does not detract from my beliefs in the teachings of Jesus. I don’t need to know whether or not God exists to understand why treating others as I would have them treat me is a good way to live. That’s my faith: I accept that I may be wrong about Jesus, but I have FAITH that despite my unwillingness to believe in His divinity, if I follow his teachings I will be rewarded when I die and throughout my life.
If there is a Heaven, I just hope it’s on the Grassy Knoll on November 22nd 1963. If I went to Heaven and found out once and for all where the pyramids came from, who shot JFK and RFK and so on, and then I was cast into Hell, I’d be cool with that.
My Mom always tells me that our family will be together forever in Heaven.
That sounds a lot more like Hell to me…
Stated,
“…what about people who have absolutely no knowledge of Christ…”
God has afforded men the opportunity to know Him through natural revelation, such as the Creation (Rom. 1:19-20, as well as through his (man’s) conscience (Rom. 2:14-15), therefore, mankind is without excuse before God. Each person will be judged according to the Law (Rom. 2:12). But Gentiles also have a law, the law of conscience that teaches them right from wrong. They have the work of law written in their hearts.
Romans 1:19-20 “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shown it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”
The term “that which may be known of God” is not that which is knowable, but that knowledge of God as the Creator. Men see the attributes of God in His creation; they see His person only in His Son, the Lord Jesus christ.
The witness of God is unmistakable (verse 19) and universal (verse 20). It is one of the most outstanding facts of all Scripture that to all human beings of all time God has given a revelation of himself. As any person walks in the light he has, he will always be given more light from God. The Psalmist ubderstood this truth when he wrote that the heavens and the firmament “declare the glory of God;…Day unto day…and night unto night” they give their knowledge of God; “There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard” (Psalm 19:1-4). All created beings are accountable to their Creator for what has been “clearly seen.” This witness from nature brings knowledge of the truth of His eternal power and the truth of Godhood (theiotes). “Eternal power” emphasizes the eternity of God himself as well as of His power. Theiotes emphasizes His deity-His being separate from and above His creation. The greatness and detail of God’s creation shows man His omnipotence and omniscience. Natural revelation shows that God exists and can be clearly seen by all mankind. The expression “without excuse” (anapologetus) means that men are defenseless on judgment day.
Romans 2:14-15 “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which show the works of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.”
The law of the Gentiles to whom Paul was writing was not in code but in conscience. They did not have a specific set of rules, but they did have the basic moral concepts which are contained in the Law. The judgment of such people will be based on God’s revelation through nature and the standard of right and wrong as revealed through conscience.
Anthropologist know by research what God has revealed in His Word. There is no societal group that is devoid of law in the sense of a standard of right vs. wrong. Also, all men know that they break their own laws and they suffer guilt. No one will be saved by the light he has; he will be judged by that light. Light will condemn Christ alone can save.
“Conscience” is a word often used by Paul. Scripture has a great deal to say about conscience. It speaks of a good conscience (I Tim. 1:5,19), a convicting conscience (John 8:9), and a seared conscience (I Tim. 4:2).
The conscience must be governed by the Word of God. Apart from the word, conscience is an uncertain faculty. the Holy Spirit in His work of conviction takes hold of conscience and brings God’s Word to bear upon it with great forcefulness.
Conscience can be said to be the mental faculty by which man judges his actions and passes judgment on those actions. The verdict of God on the Day of Judgment will be in line with what man has done at the heart of his existence with the measure of light and power that God’s revelation has brought to his life. “Accusing or else excusing” suggests that as a rule the conscience condemns.
[quote]iflyboats wrote:
My Mom always tells me that our family will be together forever in Heaven.
That sounds a lot more like Hell to me…[/quote]
lol!
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Okay Petermus. But what about people who have absolutely no knowledge of Christ? For instance, what if someone living in some far-off land who believes in the same religion as all of his ancestors dies. Does he get into Heaven? What if his concept of good, the only one he has ever known or had the ability to know, is completely at odds with what God requires of us to get into Heaven? Is this guy an extenuating circumstance tha gets in, or does God reject him?[/quote]
I think that is an appropriate question, and one we may never be able to answer since we are not God, but I would like to hear others thoughts on this as well.
Romans 1:20 pretty much states that Creation speaks to who God is, and leaves all man without excuse. Christians send Missionaries all over the world to try and spread the Gospel to all people. You would think we would be getting close to reaching all, but there are statistics showing several thousand people groups have not been reached.
On another point we Christians beleive there is only one unpardonable sin and that is the denial of Christ. It is one thing to have never heard, but it is entirely different if you have heard and refuse to beleive.[/quote]
But look at the way some of these missionaries have spread the word of God in the past. Many missionaries have ended up subjugating and/or killing those who they spread the word to. The West Indies and South America come to mind. If I were an ancient Aztec, and I have been taught about God by the Spanish, and I reject God rather than reject centuries and centuries of ancestral beliefs and traditions, is this bad? What about today? With things like sex scandals constantly being exposed within the Catholic Church, is it bad if I reject the existence of Christ from someone or some group whose leaders, on the surface, appear to be living a lifestyle completely at odds with what they are teaching?
There is no way for the missionaries to have proven the existence of God. That, to me, is the essence of faith; believing in something despite not knowing if it’s all for naught. Believing that what you are doing is good and then doing it without concrete proof that you will be rewarded for it. In a way, to have true faith and to act good in a manner that supercedes motivation of reward is to acknowledge that there is a possibility that God does not exist, but that you will follow the teachings of the Bible anyways because you believe in your heart that those teachings are the correct way to live.
I’ve heard people, when presented with this theory of mine, say that they KNOW God exists because they’ve talked with him. So who are those who have talked to Allah or Buddha or Confucius really talking to? How do we know who is right and who is wrong? Isn’t it possible that our “talks” with God are simply experiences that we don’t understand at all and so we refer to these experiences as proof of God’s existence in order to confirm within ourselves that we are doing good and that we WILL be rewarded for it?
If the Wizard of Oz were to tell me to not kill thy neighbor, I can understand why that is right. If I pull the curtain back and realize that the Wizard is just some old man with a bunch of buttons and levers, that doesn’t detract from my belief that thou shalt not kill. If it does, I’m judging what good behavior is based on who says it’s good, not whether or not it actually is good or not. What is right is eternal, it isn’t just created out of thin air. If some three year old girl tells me that E=MC squared, it carries the same validity as if Einstein were to tell me, because no matter who it comes from, it’s true.
As I’ve stated in various threads here before, I belong to a 12-step program. When I first entered the program, I struggled with the spirituality aspect of it (belief in a Higher Power is necessary in AA) because I did not believe in “God” as Christians did. I went to a Catholic school from k-8grade, so it wasn’t from a lack of familiarity of God. But when I began to accept that I can fully believe in and follow the teachings of Jesus without having to believe in his divinity, my spirituality grew immensely. I accept that I may be wrong about God, but this does not detract from my beliefs in the teachings of Jesus. I don’t need to know whether or not God exists to understand why treating others as I would have them treat me is a good way to live. That’s my faith: I accept that I may be wrong about Jesus, but I have FAITH that despite my unwillingness to believe in His divinity, if I follow his teachings I will be rewarded when I die and throughout my life.[/quote]
I am not going to discuss the first paragraph. That happened centuries ago, and the Christian community have seen the errors of their ways, and have changed the way Missionairies work. I agree that it was bad the way all that went down.
I see your point on the rest of what you say. I agree that all this Christianity could be a bunch of crap, and I can see why people feel this way. My only objection is that Christianity is the only religion that being Subjective Truth right now will one day be Objective Truth. The issue is when it becomes Objective Truth it will be too late for people to accept it. All other religions are based on works so if you are good you will go to heaven.
I personally have condemned people and that should not be done. I have even done it here at T-Nation. I have had people tell me I am a sinner because I grew up playing D&D. I am really disinfranchised with the Chruch as a whole, because they spend their money not on helping people but salaries and building bigger buildings. I do give my money to the church only because that is what God asks me to do. I beleive if the Church would do what it preaches we would not have needed any welfare program in this country. I try to look past the human sinful nature and turn my eyes to Jesus for what I should do. I do not put my faith in humans, but in Christ. Humans are searching for the truth, and I hope and pray they all find it. God does not speak to me, but he does nudge me in the direction I should go. I am willing to listen to discipline and turn back to him.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]iflyboats wrote:
My Mom always tells me that our family will be together forever in Heaven.
That sounds a lot more like Hell to me…[/quote]
lol![/quote]
I find that funny too.
My childhood family is in the same boat as iflyboats.
My wife and children are a different story. I want to be with them forever.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Okay Petermus. But what about people who have absolutely no knowledge of Christ? For instance, what if someone living in some far-off land who believes in the same religion as all of his ancestors dies. Does he get into Heaven? What if his concept of good, the only one he has ever known or had the ability to know, is completely at odds with what God requires of us to get into Heaven? Is this guy an extenuating circumstance tha gets in, or does God reject him?[/quote]
I know someone else gave you an answer, but I havent read it yet lol, so sorry if im redundant.
Luke 15
The Parable of the Lost Coin
8"Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins[a] and loses one. Does she not light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.’ 10In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
The parable of the Lost coin rejects the idea many people, even myself(until recently) to a degree think of the way we interact with God when our faith begins. Originally I was influenced by the idea of finding god. You hear or read about stories like Moby Dick which have a theme such as “The search for God” We are lead to believe that we must look for god in order to find him. If we dont have faith then we arnt trying hard enough. What does this thinking lead to? The feelings of being looked down up or inferiority many people say they experience from Christians because we hold some moral high ground (in reality we dont,bible says this many times). By claiming that we found God… we take the credit for a relationship with God, but in reality God finds us.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (New International Version)
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ??and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ?? 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Salvation is by grace, not by works so that no one can boast… we havent done anything, so we cant take credit for a relationship with God.
So I believe that everyone is found by God eventually whether it is when they’re 4 years old (I know it sounds so young but Ive met people who remember it vividly and its stayed with them their whole life) or when theyre 10 minutes from dying. God has a reason, even if we dont understand it. I believe everyone is at some time aware of God and whether or not they choose to accept him as their lord and savior is their choice.
If you were to say… I cant accept a God who would bring me into heaven but not my brother or sister or best friend. Christians are very concerned about this, the reason why God said spread the good news of Jesus christ unto the nations was so we could help people learn about Jesus. We are suppose to witness to our friends and families.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Okay Petermus. But what about people who have absolutely no knowledge of Christ? For instance, what if someone living in some far-off land who believes in the same religion as all of his ancestors dies. Does he get into Heaven? What if his concept of good, the only one he has ever known or had the ability to know, is completely at odds with what God requires of us to get into Heaven? Is this guy an extenuating circumstance tha gets in, or does God reject him?[/quote]
I think that is an appropriate question, and one we may never be able to answer since we are not God, but I would like to hear others thoughts on this as well.
Romans 1:20 pretty much states that Creation speaks to who God is, and leaves all man without excuse. Christians send Missionaries all over the world to try and spread the Gospel to all people. You would think we would be getting close to reaching all, but there are statistics showing several thousand people groups have not been reached.
On another point we Christians beleive there is only one unpardonable sin and that is the denial of Christ. It is one thing to have never heard, but it is entirely different if you have heard and refuse to beleive.[/quote]
But look at the way some of these missionaries have spread the word of God in the past. Many missionaries have ended up subjugating and/or killing those who they spread the word to. The West Indies and South America come to mind. If I were an ancient Aztec, and I have been taught about God by the Spanish, and I reject God rather than reject centuries and centuries of ancestral beliefs and traditions, is this bad? What about today? With things like sex scandals constantly being exposed within the Catholic Church, is it bad if I reject the existence of Christ from someone or some group whose leaders, on the surface, appear to be living a lifestyle completely at odds with what they are teaching?
There is no way for the missionaries to have proven the existence of God. That, to me, is the essence of faith; believing in something despite not knowing if it’s all for naught. Believing that what you are doing is good and then doing it without concrete proof that you will be rewarded for it. In a way, to have true faith and to act good in a manner that supercedes motivation of reward is to acknowledge that there is a possibility that God does not exist, but that you will follow the teachings of the Bible anyways because you believe in your heart that those teachings are the correct way to live.
I’ve heard people, when presented with this theory of mine, say that they KNOW God exists because they’ve talked with him. So who are those who have talked to Allah or Buddha or Confucius really talking to? How do we know who is right and who is wrong? Isn’t it possible that our “talks” with God are simply experiences that we don’t understand at all and so we refer to these experiences as proof of God’s existence in order to confirm within ourselves that we are doing good and that we WILL be rewarded for it?
If the Wizard of Oz were to tell me to not kill thy neighbor, I can understand why that is right. If I pull the curtain back and realize that the Wizard is just some old man with a bunch of buttons and levers, that doesn’t detract from my belief that thou shalt not kill. If it does, I’m judging what good behavior is based on who says it’s good, not whether or not it actually is good or not. What is right is eternal, it isn’t just created out of thin air. If some three year old girl tells me that E=MC squared, it carries the same validity as if Einstein were to tell me, because no matter who it comes from, it’s true.
As I’ve stated in various threads here before, I belong to a 12-step program. When I first entered the program, I struggled with the spirituality aspect of it (belief in a Higher Power is necessary in AA) because I did not believe in “God” as Christians did. I went to a Catholic school from k-8grade, so it wasn’t from a lack of familiarity of God. But when I began to accept that I can fully believe in and follow the teachings of Jesus without having to believe in his divinity, my spirituality grew immensely. I accept that I may be wrong about God, but this does not detract from my beliefs in the teachings of Jesus. I don’t need to know whether or not God exists to understand why treating others as I would have them treat me is a good way to live. That’s my faith: I accept that I may be wrong about Jesus, but I have FAITH that despite my unwillingness to believe in His divinity, if I follow his teachings I will be rewarded when I die and throughout my life.[/quote]
I am not going to discuss the first paragraph. That happened centuries ago, and the Christian community have seen the errors of their ways, and have changed the way Missionairies work. I agree that it was bad the way all that went down.
I see your point on the rest of what you say. I agree that all this Christianity could be a bunch of crap, and I can see why people feel this way. My only objection is that Christianity is the only religion that being Subjective Truth right now will one day be Objective Truth. The issue is when it becomes Objective Truth it will be too late for people to accept it. All other religions are based on works so if you are good you will go to heaven.
I personally have condemned people and that should not be done. I have even done it here at T-Nation. I have had people tell me I am a sinner because I grew up playing D&D. I am really disinfranchised with the Chruch as a whole, because they spend their money not on helping people but salaries and building bigger buildings. I do give my money to the church only because that is what God asks me to do. I beleive if the Church would do what it preaches we would not have needed any welfare program in this country. I try to look past the human sinful nature and turn my eyes to Jesus for what I should do. I do not put my faith in humans, but in Christ. Humans are searching for the truth, and I hope and pray they all find it. God does not speak to me, but he does nudge me in the direction I should go. I am willing to listen to discipline and turn back to him. [/quote]
Atrocious things are still done by some missionaries but obviously doing something and claiming it is done in christ…doesnt mean God approves. Every religion has done this in some way.The truth is that there is only a small number and many are dedicated wonderful people.
I personally do not like the catholic church, not just because im a protestant but because of whats happened especially recently. You can attribute this to the churches carelessness but when I think about Catholicism… Im skeptical about many peoples faith. Catholicism like Judaism has become for a huge number of people a social identity and not true faith. People attend christian colleges and at least some have gone into ministry when they truly lack in their faith and are aware of it. When conviction falters, its much easier for satan to influence sin in your life.
The use of tithes is a bit controversial with many non believers because… im not giving money to the church so they can buy the people gold and jewels etc. Many churches though use much of the money they get to support missions etc. My church actually built a new church in India before building our own church, we previously met in a school auditorium for 7 or 8 years.So it definitely should be put in context of use. The other thing is the bible does say to build grand temples in God’s honor
[quote]Petermus wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Okay Petermus. But what about people who have absolutely no knowledge of Christ? For instance, what if someone living in some far-off land who believes in the same religion as all of his ancestors dies. Does he get into Heaven? What if his concept of good, the only one he has ever known or had the ability to know, is completely at odds with what God requires of us to get into Heaven? Is this guy an extenuating circumstance tha gets in, or does God reject him?[/quote]
I think that is an appropriate question, and one we may never be able to answer since we are not God, but I would like to hear others thoughts on this as well.
Romans 1:20 pretty much states that Creation speaks to who God is, and leaves all man without excuse. Christians send Missionaries all over the world to try and spread the Gospel to all people. You would think we would be getting close to reaching all, but there are statistics showing several thousand people groups have not been reached.
On another point we Christians beleive there is only one unpardonable sin and that is the denial of Christ. It is one thing to have never heard, but it is entirely different if you have heard and refuse to beleive.[/quote]
But look at the way some of these missionaries have spread the word of God in the past. Many missionaries have ended up subjugating and/or killing those who they spread the word to. The West Indies and South America come to mind. If I were an ancient Aztec, and I have been taught about God by the Spanish, and I reject God rather than reject centuries and centuries of ancestral beliefs and traditions, is this bad? What about today? With things like sex scandals constantly being exposed within the Catholic Church, is it bad if I reject the existence of Christ from someone or some group whose leaders, on the surface, appear to be living a lifestyle completely at odds with what they are teaching?
There is no way for the missionaries to have proven the existence of God. That, to me, is the essence of faith; believing in something despite not knowing if it’s all for naught. Believing that what you are doing is good and then doing it without concrete proof that you will be rewarded for it. In a way, to have true faith and to act good in a manner that supercedes motivation of reward is to acknowledge that there is a possibility that God does not exist, but that you will follow the teachings of the Bible anyways because you believe in your heart that those teachings are the correct way to live.
I’ve heard people, when presented with this theory of mine, say that they KNOW God exists because they’ve talked with him. So who are those who have talked to Allah or Buddha or Confucius really talking to? How do we know who is right and who is wrong? Isn’t it possible that our “talks” with God are simply experiences that we don’t understand at all and so we refer to these experiences as proof of God’s existence in order to confirm within ourselves that we are doing good and that we WILL be rewarded for it?
If the Wizard of Oz were to tell me to not kill thy neighbor, I can understand why that is right. If I pull the curtain back and realize that the Wizard is just some old man with a bunch of buttons and levers, that doesn’t detract from my belief that thou shalt not kill. If it does, I’m judging what good behavior is based on who says it’s good, not whether or not it actually is good or not. What is right is eternal, it isn’t just created out of thin air. If some three year old girl tells me that E=MC squared, it carries the same validity as if Einstein were to tell me, because no matter who it comes from, it’s true.
As I’ve stated in various threads here before, I belong to a 12-step program. When I first entered the program, I struggled with the spirituality aspect of it (belief in a Higher Power is necessary in AA) because I did not believe in “God” as Christians did. I went to a Catholic school from k-8grade, so it wasn’t from a lack of familiarity of God. But when I began to accept that I can fully believe in and follow the teachings of Jesus without having to believe in his divinity, my spirituality grew immensely. I accept that I may be wrong about God, but this does not detract from my beliefs in the teachings of Jesus. I don’t need to know whether or not God exists to understand why treating others as I would have them treat me is a good way to live. That’s my faith: I accept that I may be wrong about Jesus, but I have FAITH that despite my unwillingness to believe in His divinity, if I follow his teachings I will be rewarded when I die and throughout my life.[/quote]
I am not going to discuss the first paragraph. That happened centuries ago, and the Christian community have seen the errors of their ways, and have changed the way Missionairies work. I agree that it was bad the way all that went down.
I see your point on the rest of what you say. I agree that all this Christianity could be a bunch of crap, and I can see why people feel this way. My only objection is that Christianity is the only religion that being Subjective Truth right now will one day be Objective Truth. The issue is when it becomes Objective Truth it will be too late for people to accept it. All other religions are based on works so if you are good you will go to heaven.
I personally have condemned people and that should not be done. I have even done it here at T-Nation. I have had people tell me I am a sinner because I grew up playing D&D. I am really disinfranchised with the Chruch as a whole, because they spend their money not on helping people but salaries and building bigger buildings. I do give my money to the church only because that is what God asks me to do. I beleive if the Church would do what it preaches we would not have needed any welfare program in this country. I try to look past the human sinful nature and turn my eyes to Jesus for what I should do. I do not put my faith in humans, but in Christ. Humans are searching for the truth, and I hope and pray they all find it. God does not speak to me, but he does nudge me in the direction I should go. I am willing to listen to discipline and turn back to him. [/quote]
Atrocious things are still done by some missionaries but obviously doing something and claiming it is done in christ…doesnt mean God approves. Every religion has done this in some way.The truth is that there is only a small number and many are dedicated wonderful people.
I personally do not like the catholic church, not just because im a protestant but because of whats happened especially recently. You can attribute this to the churches carelessness but when I think about Catholicism… Im skeptical about many peoples faith. Catholicism like Judaism has become for a huge number of people a social identity and not true faith. People attend christian colleges and at least some have gone into ministry when they truly lack in their faith and are aware of it. When conviction falters, its much easier for satan to influence sin in your life.
The use of tithes is a bit controversial with many non believers because… im not giving money to the church so they can buy the people gold and jewels etc. Many churches though use much of the money they get to support missions etc. My church actually built a new church in India before building our own church, we previously met in a school auditorium for 7 or 8 years.So it definitely should be put in context of use. The other thing is the bible does say to build grand temples in God’s honor[/quote]
Good points. I have seen several balance sheets of large and small congregation churches of different denominations and when I see Salaries and Building total more than 75% I get a little sceptical of who the money is really benefiting. Usually the head pastor that runs all the bank accounts.