God and Hell

If hell is real (and not just the absence of God hell), and all those people you saw are burning in hell for their beliefs, then that’s pretty shitty. I would not want to worship whatever sent them there.
[/quote]

I agree that going to Hell would be really shitty man, but I think this is a misconception of God. IMO it is not God who sends us to Hell but us because of our actions. I would like to think that if we as humans make the rules then everyone would go to heaven and not have to deal with hell, but IMO we do not make the rules. The rules were set in place long before the Big Bang or whenever everything started. The rules are beyond our comprehension as humans. Just my $0.02.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
“I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb”

If we accept that the soul has a beginning and is thus not eternal, doesn’t this lead to doubt on it lasting forever more or even at all after death?[/quote]

Just another way of looking at the quote. I like your train of thought. If God transcends time does he not know everything past, present, and future at any point in time? So in a way God did know us before we were formed.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
If hell is real (and not just the absence of God hell), and all those people you saw are burning in hell for their beliefs, then that’s pretty shitty. I would not want to worship whatever sent them there.
[/quote]

I agree that going to Hell would be really shitty man, but I think this is a misconception of God. IMO it is not God who sends us to Hell but us because of our actions. I would like to think that if we as humans make the rules then everyone would go to heaven and not have to deal with hell, but IMO we do not make the rules. The rules were set in place long before the Big Bang or whenever everything started. The rules are beyond our comprehension as humans. Just my $0.02.[/quote]

Every time I trip on something gravity dooms me to fall. Maybe it’s just another rule of the universe.

Why do we concentrate so much on fates we cannot know while tangible universal laws don’t get questioned much? Instead of what makes things evil or good, try to answer why masses attract? To me, the physics of the universe is no less wondrous than the miracles of the bible.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
“I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb”

If we accept that the soul has a beginning and is thus not eternal, doesn’t this lead to doubt on it lasting forever more or even at all after death?[/quote]

Just another way of looking at the quote. I like your train of thought. If God transcends time does he not know everything past, present, and future at any point in time? So in a way God did know us before we were formed.[/quote]

I’ve considered that too. The funny thing is that in physics, if you exist in every perspective (omnipresence) you also exist in all time frames. So an omnipresent being would not see us linearly in time, but as a whole. He would exist concurrently both in the beginning and the end of time. Kind of like the difference between the perspective of one riding a raft down a river to someone looking down from a satellite able to see the whole river simultaneously.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
“I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb”

If we accept that the soul has a beginning and is thus not eternal, doesn’t this lead to doubt on it lasting forever more or even at all after death?[/quote]

Just another way of looking at the quote. I like your train of thought. If God transcends time does he not know everything past, present, and future at any point in time? So in a way God did know us before we were formed.[/quote]

I’ve considered that too. The funny thing is that in physics, if you exist in every perspective (omnipresence) you also exist in all time frames. So an omnipresent being would not see us linearly in time, but as a whole. He would exist concurrently both in the beginning and the end of time. Kind of like the difference between the perspective of one riding a raft down a river to someone looking down from a satellite able to see the whole river simultaneously.[/quote]

I am not a physisicist so I am not going to even try to come up with something out of my butt, and what I am about to say may be way off base and should be taken with a grain of salt.

I will say that if there is God, and he created everything would he not be able to be above all the laws set for the material? Not say he does not have to abide by the rules of say morals for example, but would he have to obey the laws of physics since that explains more the material side and not the spiritual side?

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
If hell is real (and not just the absence of God hell), and all those people you saw are burning in hell for their beliefs, then that’s pretty shitty. I would not want to worship whatever sent them there.
[/quote]

I agree that going to Hell would be really shitty man, but I think this is a misconception of God. IMO it is not God who sends us to Hell but us because of our actions. I would like to think that if we as humans make the rules then everyone would go to heaven and not have to deal with hell, but IMO we do not make the rules. The rules were set in place long before the Big Bang or whenever everything started. The rules are beyond our comprehension as humans. Just my $0.02.[/quote]

Every time I trip on something gravity dooms me to fall. Maybe it’s just another rule of the universe.

Why do we concentrate so much on fates we cannot know while tangible universal laws don’t get questioned much? Instead of what makes things evil or good, try to answer why masses attract? To me, the physics of the universe is no less wondrous than the miracles of the bible.[/quote]

I agree with you there. I love watching the stars, and wonder is there life on other planets. I love looking at the Hubble Telescope pictures they are wonderous. I think about creation and in seeing that creation and believing in God why does he Love me. It is hard for me to separate the spiritual from the physical. Sorry if I am coming across as a religious freak.

I feel it is good to think about those things. But, to me it is more important to focus on what the Bible tells us first. The answers are all there, and they can be understood.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
I feel it is good to think about those things. But, to me it is more important to focus on what the Bible tells us first. The answers are all there, and they can be understood.[/quote]

Yes and no. I think there are a lot of answers there. I think you could argue (as a christian) all the answers you NEED are there. It does not answer all the questions we have though.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
If hell is real (and not just the absence of God hell), and all those people you saw are burning in hell for their beliefs, then that’s pretty shitty. I would not want to worship whatever sent them there.
[/quote]

I agree that going to Hell would be really shitty man, but I think this is a misconception of God. IMO it is not God who sends us to Hell but us because of our actions. I would like to think that if we as humans make the rules then everyone would go to heaven and not have to deal with hell, but IMO we do not make the rules. The rules were set in place long before the Big Bang or whenever everything started. The rules are beyond our comprehension as humans. Just my $0.02.[/quote]

Every time I trip on something gravity dooms me to fall. Maybe it’s just another rule of the universe.

Why do we concentrate so much on fates we cannot know while tangible universal laws don’t get questioned much? Instead of what makes things evil or good, try to answer why masses attract? To me, the physics of the universe is no less wondrous than the miracles of the bible.[/quote]

I agree with you there. I love watching the stars, and wonder is there life on other planets. I love looking at the Hubble Telescope pictures they are wonderous. I think about creation and in seeing that creation and believing in God why does he Love me. It is hard for me to separate the spiritual from the physical. Sorry if I am coming across as a religious freak.[/quote]

In my post I was kinda of questioning weather there was a real separation or not. I don’t really see one anymore.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
I feel it is good to think about those things. But, to me it is more important to focus on what the Bible tells us first. The answers are all there, and they can be understood.[/quote]

Yes and know. I think there are a lot of answers there. I think you could argue (as a christian) all the answers you NEED are there. It does not answer all the questions we have though.[/quote]

Correct. that was a better way of putting it. Answer we need to know are there. Also, the question the OP posed is answered there as well.

If you behave well or do whatever the hell it is you’re supposed to do to earn a spot in Heaven simply to be in Heaven, is that virtuous? If fear of Hell is the motivating factor, not genuine concern for your fellow man, is that pious? I’d like to see some priests and whatnot start telling people that they might end up in hell no matter what, or that there may be no Heaven/Hell and that they may just die and that’s it. Then we’ll see how many act kindly toward others out of genuine kindness and how many are motivated by fear or some sort of reward. When we were kids, did we behave well around Christmas time so we could get presents, or did we do so simply because it was right?

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
If hell is real (and not just the absence of God hell), and all those people you saw are burning in hell for their beliefs, then that’s pretty shitty. I would not want to worship whatever sent them there.
[/quote]

I agree that going to Hell would be really shitty man, but I think this is a misconception of God. IMO it is not God who sends us to Hell but us because of our actions. I would like to think that if we as humans make the rules then everyone would go to heaven and not have to deal with hell, but IMO we do not make the rules. The rules were set in place long before the Big Bang or whenever everything started. The rules are beyond our comprehension as humans. Just my $0.02.[/quote]

But that cuts into the argument of free will. I’ve heard the “we send ourselves” argument. But if we are born sinful as christianity teaches (we dont have a choice in the matter), and act accordingly, like regular humans, then we do what we were pre programmed to do. I could understand it better if we were born in a neutral state or a state leaning towards not being sinful, then the “we send ourselves” argument would hold up better.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
When we were kids, did we behave well around Christmas time so we could get presents, or did we do so simply because it was right?[/quote]

Thats a good point.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
If you behave well or do whatever the hell it is you’re supposed to do to earn a spot in Heaven simply to be in Heaven, is that virtuous? If fear of Hell is the motivating factor, not genuine concern for your fellow man, is that pious? I’d like to see some priests and whatnot start telling people that they might end up in hell no matter what, or that there may be no Heaven/Hell and that they may just die and that’s it. Then we’ll see how many act kindly toward others out of genuine kindness and how many are motivated by fear or some sort of reward. When we were kids, did we behave well around Christmas time so we could get presents, or did we do so simply because it was right?[/quote]

To that end, the argument could easily be made that altruism doesn’t exist. I am not sure it does. Who’s to say that I help others simply so I can feel better about myself and avoid hell?

[quote]clip11 wrote:
I went to the cemetery yesterday to inspect my grandparents headstone, to make sure it wasnt sinking or in disrepair. While I was driving my car through the cemetery, I noticed what probably was thousands of headstones there. My grandparents were hardcore pentecostal christians, especially my grandmother. She didnt believe in going to casinos (she called them gambling houses)going to the movies, drinking, women wearing pants, etc. etc. And i was thinking, if she was correct, then she would certainly be in heaven right now.

But then I thought, what about everyone else? Im sure its people buried there that are (or were) muslims, atheists, agnostics, jehovas witnesses, or people who didnt care one way or the other. Is God punishing them with an eternal torment in hell? Ive heard that Gods justice demands punishment, but is eternal torment for believing the wrong religion or no religion at all righteous justice? There may even be people buried there that during their lifetime were just evil people, but is infinite torment for finite behavior justice at all?[/quote]

Gods only begotten son came to earth and died in our place so that we would not have to suffer eternal torment in hell. All we have to do is what you have to do with every other gift that you are offered, accept it!

If you accept this gift you don’t have to worry about hell as you are guaranteed eternal life in heaven. It’s a simple message and one that is beneficial for all mankind.

You can accept it, reject it, or think about for the rest of your life that’s what free will is all about.

[quote]Tyler23 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
If you behave well or do whatever the hell it is you’re supposed to do to earn a spot in Heaven simply to be in Heaven, is that virtuous? If fear of Hell is the motivating factor, not genuine concern for your fellow man, is that pious? I’d like to see some priests and whatnot start telling people that they might end up in hell no matter what, or that there may be no Heaven/Hell and that they may just die and that’s it. Then we’ll see how many act kindly toward others out of genuine kindness and how many are motivated by fear or some sort of reward. When we were kids, did we behave well around Christmas time so we could get presents, or did we do so simply because it was right?[/quote]

To that end, the argument could easily be made that altruism doesn’t exist. I am not sure it does. Who’s to say that I help others simply so I can feel better about myself and avoid hell?[/quote]

Humans are by nature selfish and greedy. We have to fight those urges every day. Just look at a baby. Most selfish creatures. Left to our own devices, we would never help people out for the sake of helping people out. We need motivators; hopefully good, but sometimes bad.

[quote]Tyler23 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
If you behave well or do whatever the hell it is you’re supposed to do to earn a spot in Heaven simply to be in Heaven, is that virtuous? If fear of Hell is the motivating factor, not genuine concern for your fellow man, is that pious? I’d like to see some priests and whatnot start telling people that they might end up in hell no matter what, or that there may be no Heaven/Hell and that they may just die and that’s it. Then we’ll see how many act kindly toward others out of genuine kindness and how many are motivated by fear or some sort of reward. When we were kids, did we behave well around Christmas time so we could get presents, or did we do so simply because it was right?[/quote]

To that end, the argument could easily be made that altruism doesn’t exist. I am not sure it does. Who’s to say that I help others simply so I can feel better about myself and avoid hell?[/quote]

Only you know your true motivations. What other people think or say about your actions is immaterial in this case. If genuine altruism exists in your actions, you know it and the God you believe in knows it, and that’s all that matters.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Tyler23 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
If you behave well or do whatever the hell it is you’re supposed to do to earn a spot in Heaven simply to be in Heaven, is that virtuous? If fear of Hell is the motivating factor, not genuine concern for your fellow man, is that pious? I’d like to see some priests and whatnot start telling people that they might end up in hell no matter what, or that there may be no Heaven/Hell and that they may just die and that’s it. Then we’ll see how many act kindly toward others out of genuine kindness and how many are motivated by fear or some sort of reward. When we were kids, did we behave well around Christmas time so we could get presents, or did we do so simply because it was right?[/quote]

To that end, the argument could easily be made that altruism doesn’t exist. I am not sure it does. Who’s to say that I help others simply so I can feel better about myself and avoid hell?[/quote]

Only you know your true motivations. What other people think or say about your actions is immaterial in this case. If genuine altruism exists in your actions, you know it and the God you believe in knows it, and that’s all that matters.[/quote]

You’re right; other people’s opinions of my or your actions are immaterial. But I’m not sure people really know, consciously, the reasons for their actions. (I am not necessarily disagreeing with your opinion though.)

[quote]Tyler23 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Tyler23 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
If you behave well or do whatever the hell it is you’re supposed to do to earn a spot in Heaven simply to be in Heaven, is that virtuous? If fear of Hell is the motivating factor, not genuine concern for your fellow man, is that pious? I’d like to see some priests and whatnot start telling people that they might end up in hell no matter what, or that there may be no Heaven/Hell and that they may just die and that’s it. Then we’ll see how many act kindly toward others out of genuine kindness and how many are motivated by fear or some sort of reward. When we were kids, did we behave well around Christmas time so we could get presents, or did we do so simply because it was right?[/quote]

To that end, the argument could easily be made that altruism doesn’t exist. I am not sure it does. Who’s to say that I help others simply so I can feel better about myself and avoid hell?[/quote]

Only you know your true motivations. What other people think or say about your actions is immaterial in this case. If genuine altruism exists in your actions, you know it and the God you believe in knows it, and that’s all that matters.[/quote]

You’re right; other people’s opinions of my or your actions are immaterial. But I’m not sure people really know, consciously, the reasons for their actions. (I am not necessarily disagreeing with your opinion though.)[/quote]

I understand your point. I think it comes down to a person’s ability to be honest with themselves. To be honest, I think most people’s actions lack genuine altruism. I suppose that being “good” for some sort of final reward is better than not being “good” at all.

I am a Bible believing christian. I addressed a few of the questions. specifically double duce and honest lifter. I also address the question… do people who do goods things go to heaven… even if they dont believe in god or a variation of that including altruism ect.

Matthew 22
Parable of the Great Feast
Jesus also told them other parables. He said, 2 �¢??The Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a king who prepared a great wedding feast for his son. 3 When the banquet was ready, he sent his servants to notify those who were invited. But they all refused to come!

4 �¢??So he sent other servants to tell them, �¢??The feast has been prepared. The bulls and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the banquet!�¢?? 5 But the guests he had invited ignored them and went their own way, one to his farm, another to his business. 6 Others seized his messengers and insulted them and killed them.

7 �¢??The king was furious, and he sent out his army to destroy the murderers and burn their town. 8 And he said to his servants, �¢??The wedding feast is ready, and the guests I invited aren�¢??t worthy of the honor. 9 Now go out to the street corners and invite everyone you see.�¢?? 10 So the servants brought in everyone they could find, good and bad alike, and the banquet hall was filled with guests.

11 �¢??But when the king came in to meet the guests, he noticed a man who wasn�¢??t wearing the proper clothes for a wedding. 12 �¢??Friend,�¢?? he asked, �¢??how is it that you are here without wedding clothes?�¢?? But the man had no reply. 13 Then the king said to his aides, �¢??Bind his hands and feet and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.�¢??

14 �¢??For many are called, but few are chosen.�¢??

The man without wedding clothes represents a person who has not honored jesus christ (the kings son) and by not honoring christ and accepting him as your lord and savior, you will not get into heaven. (John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me)

What does the story mean? Everyone is offered salvation through our lord and savior jesus christ,
but few will take it. God comes to you in your life but if you deny him then it is what it is.

DoubleDuce:
“In fact much of what we understand about heaven and hell is from the mind of artists and theologians long after christ. The heaven and hell we think of aren’t really in the bible.”
Honest-lifter:
"A lot of people feel that they will go to heaven. I always ask, “what will you do in heaven?”

this is very true in a sense. Many people think of heaven as all clouds and angles where we will always be happy or heaven will be what you want it to be. Frankly…this is not true at all. Heaven will still be awesome but it will be much different. Ive actually been watching several discussions about heaven (coming directly from the bible in Revelations) Heaven will be a place in which we live with God. Heaven as we think of it now, separate from earth is the “intermediate heaven”, when God comes to live with his people on the New earth, this will become heaven. Earth as it is now is in a fallen state, imagine all the beauty in the world as the last remnants of Eden. The corrupted left over bits and pieces. The New earth will be restored to its original state as eden. The new race (not in a hitler way or anything like that…it means Christians) will reign as stewards over the world as kings and queens of different nations, it also talks about how people who are most deserving will be highest in power…the humblest of the world will become the greatest. People who hold power now without reserve and humility will be very low. What will we do in heaven? we will work. when the bible says work, it speaks in the context of a sinless world, without grieve… think of all the positive things you get from working. Joy… a sense of accomplishment ect… there is goodness in work and we as humans need to work even adam and eve were instructed to work in the garden of Eden. Jesus, in the form of a man as he was originally will live with us on earth. I think this will be the most interesting part! lol. As far as the Universe as a whole is concerned, God did make it for a reason. So we may end up doing something with it.

Do people who do good things go to heaven?

Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ??and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ?? 9not by works, so that no one can boast

Works without a relationship with God dont mean anything. Luke 15, the parable of the lost son (scroll down to read) talks about a man with two sons. The older and the younger. The younger son takes his fathers inheritance (basically saying i dont care if ur dead or alive…i want the money)and goes and spends it on whores and partying. The oldest son stays with his father following all of his instructions and tries to always be good. When the younger son finds himself in ruins (litterally sleeping in a pig pen) he goes back to his father and apologies because he relizes what hes done. “21"The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.[b]’”. The father welcomes him with open arms and accepts his apology, he even puts on a great feast that costs a large sum of money. The older son is outraged and freaks out.

28"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’

he whines and moans that hes been slaving away for his father! He has against his will done everything has father has asked of him but hes now spending a lot of money ( the older sons future inheritance) to give his younger brother a party after hes done so many bad things. “Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends.” What does this mean? The oldest son doesnt care about what his father thinks or does… he literally is only interested in insuring that he get his inheritance. This is the difference between a christian and a religious person. A religious person, like the older son does things only for the future reward he believes he may receive, a good insurance plan just in case. Christians like the younger son care about a relationship with their father. Christians seek a personal relationship with God and because of that desire to live in his Image. If we dont have a personal relationship with God then we dont have anything.

The Parable of the Lost Son
11Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. 12The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.

13"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17"When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.’ 20So he got up and went to his father.
"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21"The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.[b]’

22"But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

25"Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27’Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’

28"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’

31" ‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ "