Sorry dmaddox, we differ on what the Bible teaches. You are using logical fallacy. I don’t even know where to start in a response anymore. There are so many things that are just plain wrong with your reasonings. Yes, is a bit harsh, I am aware, but it is true. You are grasping at straws in your responses, clinging to your closely held belief that Jesus is God no matter what the Bible actually says. That is a personal choice, and because you have been given free will, you can choose to continue with that belief.
Obviously so big boy. This issue is you can not logically interpret the Bible. There are too many mysteries that we as humans can not understand. I am going to go with what the Apostles since they actually knew Jesus and told us who he was. God.
Take it easy boys, but dont say we never warned you.
Guys, I was reading my Bible tonight, and I asked God to show me a passage that prooves that Jesus is God. He led me to Revelation. As I have seen from your literal interpretation of all the numbers and things in this book these verses really stood out to me. Revelation 1:17-18, John says,"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid, I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.”
Who was the only one that was dead and now alive? Jesus. Since this is Jesus talking and he was the First and the Last, and God is the Alpha and the Omega the begining and the End please tell me who Jesus is?
John 1:1-2
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.”
The subject of the statement made in verse 1 is “the Word” (ho logos). By placing the words “in the beginning” (en arche) first in the sentence, this fact about “the Word” is stressed.
“And the Word was with God” gives the second fact or truth concerning “the Word.” “And” links the two traits as equal. The preposition “with” (pros) is translated hundreds of times in the KJV as “to, unto, or towards.” It always implies mutual fellowship and intercommunication. Thus the Son was with God in a close personal relationship.
“And the Word was God” expresses the third preexistent quality of “the Word,” with “and” connecting the second and third attributes as equal. Though the definite article “the” (ton) is not found with “God” (as it was in the preceding phrase), the meaning is still that the Word was deity.
John portrays Jesus as the Word-God made flesh. The basis for John’s understanding was the word of the O.T., although he could resonate with Hellenistic philosophical ideas. But John knew first and formost the creative Word of the O.T. who gives and sustains life. He has come in the flesh as God’s ultimate Word/Act (cf. Hebrews 1:1-2). The Word is not merely personified; He is a human being, fully God and fully man.
I John 4:1-3
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”
False teachers were harassing the churches with doctrines characteristic of the Gnostic heresy that Jesus was a mere man who was indwelt temporarily by the Christ, a divine spirit who left Him just before the Cross. He who denies that Jesus is the Christ is denying the incarnation of Christ, undercutting the truth that God became man (I John 2:22).
Christians need to realize that not every spirit represents God. Instead of being gulliable, they need to “try” (dokimazete, test) any one who claims to speak as a mouthpiece for the Spirit of God (cf. Deuteronomy 18:20-22). It is foolish to assume that all claimants truly have their origin in God, because a large number of false teachers are in circulation, promoting their teachings throughout the world.
How does one test such people? John gave a practical way to determine the truth-by examining the content of the teachers message. If a spirit-inspired utterance is truly from God, it will be an open acknowledgment of Jesus, the Christ or Anointed One who became human. John opposed their view by demanding that genuine Christians accept Jesus and Christ as the same person. He also specified that Christ came “in flesh,” omitting any article to emphasize the kind of nature He assumed. And the perfect participle “is come” shows that Christ’s action in becoming man was more than a temporary arrangement.
If a person claims to reveal truth, yet refuses to acknowledge the apostolic doctrine of Christ, he is a deceiver. The present tense of “confesseth” (Gk. homologei) speaks of a habitual practice, and the meaning of the word implies a personal conviction openly expressed. The definite article before Jesus refers back to the fuller statement of faith previously given in verse 2; the false spirits are those which deny that Jesus is the divine Christ who became man.
If such teachers were not inspired by the Holy Spirit, their message must come from a different spirit. This spirit is identified as the “spirit of antichrist” (cf. I John 2:18). The spirit of Antichrist includes all false teachers and enemies of the truth.
[quote]blacksheep wrote:
John 1:1-2
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.”
The subject of the statement made in verse 1 is “the Word” (ho logos). By placing the words “in the beginning” (en arche) first in the sentence, this fact about “the Word” is stressed.
“And the Word was with God” gives the second fact or truth concerning “the Word.” “And” links the two traits as equal. The preposition “with” (pros) is translated hundreds of times in the KJV as “to, unto, or towards.” It always implies mutual fellowship and intercommunication. Thus the Son was with God in a close personal relationship.
“And the Word was God” expresses the third preexistent quality of “the Word,” with “and” connecting the second and third attributes as equal. Though the definite article “the” (ton) is not found with “God” (as it was in the preceding phrase), the meaning is still that the Word was deity.
John portrays Jesus as the Word-God made flesh. The basis for John’s understanding was the word of the O.T., although he could resonate with Hellenistic philosophical ideas. But John knew first and formost the creative Word of the O.T. who gives and sustains life. He has come in the flesh as God’s ultimate Word/Act (cf. Hebrews 1:1-2). The Word is not merely personified; He is a human being, fully God and fully man.
I John 4:1-3
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”
False teachers were harassing the churches with doctrines characteristic of the Gnostic heresy that Jesus was a mere man who was indwelt temporarily by the Christ, a divine spirit who left Him just before the Cross. He who denies that Jesus is the Christ is denying the incarnation of Christ, undercutting the truth that God became man (I John 2:22).
Christians need to realize that not every spirit represents God. Instead of being gulliable, they need to “try” (dokimazete, test) any one who claims to speak as a mouthpiece for the Spirit of God (cf. Deuteronomy 18:20-22). It is foolish to assume that all claimants truly have their origin in God, because a large number of false teachers are in circulation, promoting their teachings throughout the world.
How does one test such people? John gave a practical way to determine the truth-by examining the content of the teachers message. If a spirit-inspired utterance is truly from God, it will be an open acknowledgment of Jesus, the Christ or Anointed One who became human. John opposed their view by demanding that genuine Christians accept Jesus and Christ as the same person. He also specified that Christ came “in flesh,” omitting any article to emphasize the kind of nature He assumed. And the perfect participle “is come” shows that Christ’s action in becoming man was more than a temporary arrangement.
If a person claims to reveal truth, yet refuses to acknowledge the apostolic doctrine of Christ, he is a deceiver. The present tense of “confesseth” (Gk. homologei) speaks of a habitual practice, and the meaning of the word implies a personal conviction openly expressed. The definite article before Jesus refers back to the fuller statement of faith previously given in verse 2; the false spirits are those which deny that Jesus is the divine Christ who became man.
If such teachers were not inspired by the Holy Spirit, their message must come from a different spirit. This spirit is identified as the “spirit of antichrist” (cf. I John 2:18). The spirit of Antichrist includes all false teachers and enemies of the truth.[/quote]
It’s nice of you to give your opinion. From what you wrote I take it that you believe Jesus is God. And it looks like you are using John 1:1 to base this belief on. Wikipedia has a pretty good article on the subject of the Greek translation of Word which is Logos. I’ll paste an excerpt from the article:
The last four words of John 1:1 ( literally “God was the Logos,” or “God was the Word”) have been a particular topic of debate within Christianity. In this construct, the subject (the Logos) and the complement (God) both appear in the nominative case, and the complement is therefore usually distinguished by dropping any article, and moving it before the verb.[18][19] Grammatically, the phrase could therefore read either “the Word was God” or “the Word was a god.” Early New Testament manuscripts did not distinguish upper and lower case,[18] so that pre-existing beliefs about the Trinity have influenced translation, although many scholars see the movement of “God” to the front of the clause as indicating an emphasis more consistent with “the Word was God.”[20][21][22][23] Some translations, such as An American Translation[24] and Moffatt, New Translation,[25] preserve a sense of ambiguity with “the Word was divine.” Related translations have also been suggested, such as “what God was the Word also was.”[26] While “the Word was God” is by far the most common English translation,[27] non-Trinitarian groups such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses (in their Emphatic Diaglott and New World Translation) and Unitarians (in Thomas Belsham’s modification[28] of William Newcome’s version) translate “the Word was a god”
While I realize that Wikipedia isn’t always 100% correct this excerpt just shows that there are other translations that state that the WORD WAS A GOD or that the WORD WAS DIVINE. So to find the true state of the nature of Jesus you MUST look at other parts of the Bible. The Bible clearly shows that Jesus was in Heaven before he came to earth.
John 8:58 states:
Jesus said to them:Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been."
Now what was his relation to God while he was in heaven? Jesus clearly states this at John 17:5 which states:
“So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”
Before God used Jesus to create the earth Jesus was ALONGSIDE GOD or AT HIS SIDE. Jesus DID NOT say “now father glorify me with the glory I had AS YOU before the earth was.” If that verse read like that then it would be clear that when Jesus was in Heaven he was God, but the verse states he was at HIS SIDE which clearly seperates them as two spirit creatures.
Even though this is clear some will say that when Jesus went back to heaven that he became God. But does the Bible state this? NO! When Stephen was being stoned, just before he died he caught a glimpse of heaven and he did not see Jesus as God. Note was Acts 7:55 & 56 states:
“But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of Gods glory and of Jesus standing at Gods right hand, 56 and he said: Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at Gods right hand.”
Stephen did not look to heaven and see God, Jesus and the holy spirit was one being or equal. The verse clearly states that he again was AT GOD’S SIDE just like Jesus stated at John 17:5.
The two scriptures I quoted above are not the only scriptures that mention Jesus being at God’s right hand. Hebrews 10:12 & 13 states:
“But this man offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the RIGHT HAND of God, from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.”
Colossians 3:1 states:
“If, however, YOU were raised up with the Christ, go on seeking the things above, where the Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”
There are a total of 10 scriptures in the Bible that show Jesus is at God’s RIGHT HAND OR BESIDE GOD.
I’ve showed people these verses and since these are clear and direct they then reasoned that God and Jesus may be seperate but they along with the holy spirit are equal. Not only is this contrary to the Trinity teaching but this is contrary to what the Bible teaches.
1 Corinthians 11:3 clearly states:
“But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.”
You can not get any clearer than that.
In my previous post I quoted 1 Corinthians 15:24-29. Verse 29 states that “the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”
Again clear and direct.
Yes, God did use Jesus as an instrument or agent through whom God the CREATOR created everything as you pointed out in Hebrews 1:1,2, but does that mean that Jesus is God. Again I’ll we have to see what the Bible states.
Jesus himself was a created spirit creature. God did not have a beginning but Jesus did.
Colosions 1:15 clearly states:
“He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of all creation”
Revelation 3:14 states:
“And to the angel of the congregation in write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God.”
Jesus of course is the “Amen” and the “Faithful and True Witness.”
Proverbs 8:22-31 shows Jesus in his prehuman existence as Wisdom Personified.
“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.”
These verses fit with what the Bible later reveals about Jesus prehuman existence. Just like Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14 show that Jesus was the start of creation by God, the above verses states that God produced him at the beginning of his way.
Just like Jesus said at John 17:5 when he said he had glory beside GOD, the above verses states that he was BESIDE God as a MASTER WORKER.
Jesus was God’s MASTER WORKER which shows that God used Jesus to create everything else that came into existence.
Blacksheep, this is what the Apostle John believed and wanted the world to believe which is stated at John 20:31 which states:
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ THE SON OF GOD, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.”
He didn’t want the world to believe that Jesus was God but that he was God’s son.
Blacksheep I completely agree with the other verses you quoted about the AntiChrist and False Teachers. That’s why it is SO important to rely on the Bible and make sure that your belief is solidly grounded in the Bible. The only scripture that you quoted to back up your Trinity belief is John 1:1. Show me other scriptures beside John 1:1 that CLEARLY show that God, Jesus and the holy spirit is one being or equal.
I find if very hilarious how you guys rely so much on your leaders interpretation of the Bible. I have stated this before, but your leaders have been wrong on their prophesies made on when Armageddon was going to happen. Not once, but multiple times, and written down in your publications. In being so wrong on these prophesies would it not be correct in saying they are wrong in their translation of the Bible? I would say that is not far fetched.
If you take the Bible literaly then you have to take the false prophecies of your leaders literaly because they base their prophecies on the study of the Bible? They are the false prophets that the Bible is talking about.
There is more to Christianity than the Bible. The holy Mysteries and Sacrements and traditions that have been passed down since the time of the apostles must be taken into account as well as our Holy Fathers, the Saints who have come before us.
Quite simply God is the Triune spirit, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all at once. 1 + 1 + 1 equals 3 not 1 logically. However God is beyond human logic. Look closely at other religions. Buddha, Mohammed, Confucious all of these teachings are of logic, logic which makes sense to man. Don’t look at the Bible and try to interpret it using human logic because you will fail to understand the Truth. Therefore arguing that the Son is seperate from the Father is representative of human logic, not an understanding in faith of the Truth.
[quote]Beara33 wrote:
There is more to Christianity than the Bible. The holy Mysteries and Sacrements and traditions that have been passed down since the time of the apostles must be taken into account as well as our Holy Fathers, the Saints who have come before us.
Quite simply God is the Triune spirit, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all at once. 1 + 1 + 1 equals 3 not 1 logically. However God is beyond human logic. Look closely at other religions. Buddha, Mohammed, Confucious all of these teachings are of logic, logic which makes sense to man. Don’t look at the Bible and try to interpret it using human logic because you will fail to understand the Truth. Therefore arguing that the Son is seperate from the Father is representative of human logic, not an understanding in faith of the Truth. [/quote]
There is no good evidence to know whether Jesus was God, his son, or an imaginary person. I don’t know how you guys would prove this using the Bible that has been rewritten countless times by various authors who modified it along the way. That evidence would be thrown out in any court of law.
You can choose to throw out logic, but at least logically use punctuation. Saying “Truth” doesn’t magically mean it’s any different than “truth”.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I find if very hilarious how you guys rely so much on your leaders interpretation of the Bible. I have stated this before, but your leaders have been wrong on their prophesies made on when Armageddon was going to happen. Not once, but multiple times, and written down in your publications. In being so wrong on these prophesies would it not be correct in saying they are wrong in their translation of the Bible? I would say that is not far fetched.
If you take the Bible literaly then you have to take the false prophecies of your leaders literaly because they base their prophecies on the study of the Bible? They are the false prophets that the Bible is talking about.[/quote]
None of the scriptures I quoted above except for one is symbolic. They are all clear and direct scriptures meaning there aren’t multiple ways to interpret them. It’s like saying Thou Shall Not Steal has multiple meanings and can be interpreted multiple ways.
Alot of people misunderstand what it means to Interpret the Bible. They confuse translation of the Bible with interpretation of the Bible. In the Bible there were two kinds interpreters. He may be a translator, one who conveys the meaning of words spoken or written in one language to persons reading or speaking another, and he can do this either orally or in writing. Or an interpreter may be one who explains Bible prophecy by giving others the meaning, significance, and understanding of prophetic dreams, visions, and messages of divine origin. When interpreters translate something from one language to another they can use different words to express the meaning of what’s being translated. So if two different translators translate something from French to English they don’t have to use the exact same wording to convey the same meaning of the French text. So if one were to read both translations they would see that they are worded differently but they would get the SAME meaning from both translations. That’s how the different Bible translation are. For the most part if you look at two different Bible translations a verse may be worded differently but they will convey the SAME meaning.
The interpreter who explains Bible prophecy are prophets like Daniel and Isaiah. Take Daniel for example. In the book of Daniel the king of Bablylon Nebuchadnezzar dreamed a dream that he didn’t understand and only Daniel was able to understand so he interpreted the dream for the king and was able to explain it clearly to him. Another example in the book of Daniel is when the hand writing appeared on the wall during Belshazzar’s dinner feast. The hand wrote four words that had no obvious meaning. Daniel saw the words and was able to interpret them to mean that Babylon was going to be overthrown that night which is exactly what happened.
The Bible that was originally in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, when translators went to translate those languages to different languages how they did it or the words they used to express the meaning of the original passages was left up to the translator or interpreter. The Bible books, chapters and verses have ONE meaning or message. Paul said at 2 timothy 2 15,16 that:
“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. .” If the Bible were left up to interpretation how could you discipline, set things straight or reprove someone with the Bible. That above verse would have no meaning.
Now there is symbolism in the Bible that obviously means something else and when read it’s not easily discernable. But the most part when something symbolic is used to describe something, the meaning of the symbolism is often explained later in the book as is the case with how Jesus used symbolism with his illustrations or how symbolism is used with the different prophecies in the book of Daniel. However, there are symbolic verses that aren’t explained in later chapters. The book of Revelation is a good example of this. When this is the case you have to look to other parts of the Bible to see how that symbolic word is used. For example Revelation 12:9,12 which states:
“So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.”
verse 12:
“On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the SEA, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”
Now when this scripture is read and you come across the word SEA it is not easily decernable as to what that means but if you look at Isiah 57:20 it states:
“But the wicked are like the SEA that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire.”
And Revelation 17:15 which states:
“And he says to me: â??The WATERS that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.”
So if you take both of those verses, you see that SEA and WATERS means people and if you apply people to Revelation 12:12 then the verse becomes more understandable and shows that when Satan is cast out of heaven and thrown to the earth it is going to be WOE or BAD for the earth and people.
Now as far as our “leaders” stating when Armegeddon would come. I will try to make this as brief as possible. First of all we don’t have leaders except for one: Jesus Christ. When we were in our infancy as a group of people in the late 1800’s we misunderstood a Bible prophecy and thought 1914 would be the date Armageddon would come. There are several scriptures in the Bible that when applied to a certain date in history took us to the year 1914. So we knew 1914 would be a year of significance but we wrongly thought that Armegeddon was going to come. Shortly after 1914 we realized that this year meant something else which was almost as important. Bible prophecy shows that that was when something the Bible terms the LAST DAYS started. Some people will say that we said 1975 was a year Armageddon would come. Although, this was never printed in any of our magazines as a certainty, according to my father too much emphasis was put on that year(I was borne in 77). Because too much emphasis was put on that date we realized we made a mistake and from that point forward will never again put a date on Armageddon. We never said we are a perfect organization we’re all imperfect men. The below quote is taken from one of our Watchtower magazines in 1980:
"If we remain faithful, God will not let us make ruinous mistakes. But sometimes he permits us to be in error so that we may see our need to look always to him and his Word. This strengthens our relationship with him and our endurance while waiting. We learn from our mistakes that it is necessary to be more careful in the future. The desire for the new system of things to take complete charge of the earth has always been very strong in Christians down through the centuries. And because of their own short life-span, they doubtless longed for it to come in their particular lifetime. Those who have tried to keep Gods judgment time close in mind have, on more than one occasion throughout history, become overly eager for that days arrival, in their own minds trying to rush the arrival of the desired events. In the first century, for example, the apostle Paul found it necessary to write to Christians in Thessalonica in this fashion, as we read at 2 Thesselonians 2:1-3 “However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. Let no one seduce you in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.”
Again, although we never officially said that 1975 was going to be the year we did place too much emphasis on it and we realized that we made a mistake. Since I’ve been alive I have not heard one date mentioned as to when Armegeddon would come.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]Beara33 wrote:
There is more to Christianity than the Bible. The holy Mysteries and Sacrements and traditions that have been passed down since the time of the apostles must be taken into account as well as our Holy Fathers, the Saints who have come before us.
Quite simply God is the Triune spirit, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all at once. 1 + 1 + 1 equals 3 not 1 logically. However God is beyond human logic. Look closely at other religions. Buddha, Mohammed, Confucious all of these teachings are of logic, logic which makes sense to man. Don’t look at the Bible and try to interpret it using human logic because you will fail to understand the Truth. Therefore arguing that the Son is seperate from the Father is representative of human logic, not an understanding in faith of the Truth. [/quote]
There is no good evidence to know whether Jesus was God, his son, or an imaginary person. I don’t know how you guys would prove this using the Bible that has been rewritten countless times by various authors who modified it along the way. That evidence would be thrown out in any court of law.
You can choose to throw out logic, but at least logically use punctuation. Saying “Truth” doesn’t magically mean it’s any different than “truth”.[/quote]
I would like to say that before the New Testament was written down the men and women that were with Jesus had a physical connection with the Man. So they did not use the Bible but their actual interaction with Jesus as their proof. Today people have an actual encounter with Jesus maybe not physically, but spiritually, and the Bible is the only form of document we have to prove what the apostles saw. Amazing how many years it took to write the Bible and the number of authors from different walks of life that had the same experience with God. Even though the Bible can not be proven it is Faith in Jesus that we have. Faith, Hope, and Love are very powerful when a group of people come together in the name of Jesus. There is power in that name, and I personally have seen it. I am not talking about an exercism, but the power to change someone’s life. Especially in my own life. I might not be the most scholarly, and butcher the scriptures, but I have felt that power, and want to learn at the feet of Jesus. He is God and I know it. Maybe I can not prove it, but he is God and he can change the heart of this generation. The question is will this generation want to change.
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I find if very hilarious how you guys rely so much on your leaders interpretation of the Bible. I have stated this before, but your leaders have been wrong on their prophesies made on when Armageddon was going to happen. Not once, but multiple times, and written down in your publications. In being so wrong on these prophesies would it not be correct in saying they are wrong in their translation of the Bible? I would say that is not far fetched.
If you take the Bible literaly then you have to take the false prophecies of your leaders literaly because they base their prophecies on the study of the Bible? They are the false prophets that the Bible is talking about.[/quote]
None of the scriptures I quoted above except for one is symbolic. They are all clear and direct scriptures meaning there aren’t multiple ways to interpret them. It’s like saying Thou Shall Not Steal has multiple meanings and can be interpreted multiple ways.
Alot of people misunderstand what it means to Interpret the Bible. They confuse translation of the Bible with interpretation of the Bible. In the Bible there were two kinds interpreters. He may be a translator, one who conveys the meaning of words spoken or written in one language to persons reading or speaking another, and he can do this either orally or in writing. Or an interpreter may be one who explains Bible prophecy by giving others the meaning, significance, and understanding of prophetic dreams, visions, and messages of divine origin. When interpreters translate something from one language to another they can use different words to express the meaning of what’s being translated. So if two different translators translate something from French to English they don’t have to use the exact same wording to convey the same meaning of the French text. So if one were to read both translations they would see that they are worded differently but they would get the SAME meaning from both translations. That’s how the different Bible translation are. For the most part if you look at two different Bible translations a verse may be worded differently but they will convey the SAME meaning.
The interpreter who explains Bible prophecy are prophets like Daniel and Isaiah. Take Daniel for example. In the book of Daniel the king of Bablylon Nebuchadnezzar dreamed a dream that he didn’t understand and only Daniel was able to understand so he interpreted the dream for the king and was able to explain it clearly to him. Another example in the book of Daniel is when the hand writting appeared on the wall during Belshazzar dinner feast. The hand wrote four words that had no obvious meaning. Daniel saw the words and was able to interpret them to mean that Babylon was going to be overthrown that night which is exactly what happened.
The Bible that was originally in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, when translators went to translate those languages to different languages how they did it or the words they used to express the meaning of the original passages was left up to the translator or interpreter. The Bible books, chapters and verses have ONE meaning or message. Paul said at 2 timothy 2 15,16 that:
“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. .” If the Bible were left up to interpretation how could you discipline, set things straight or reprove someone with the Bible. That above verse would have no meaning.
Now there is symbolism in the Bible that obviously means something else and when read it’s not easily decernable. But the most part when something symbolic is used to describe something, the meaning of the symbolism is often explained later in the book as is the case with how Jesus used symbolism with his illustrations or how symbolism is used with the different prophecies in the book of Daniel. However, there are symbolic verses that aren’t explained in later chapters. The book of Revelation is a good example of this. When this is the case you have to look to other parts of the Bible to see how that symbolic word is used. For example Revelation 12:9,12 which states:
“So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.”
verse 12:
“On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the SEA, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”
Now when this scripture is read and you come across the word SEA it is not easily decernable as to what that means but if you look at Isiah 57:20 it states:
“But the wicked are like the SEA that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire.”
And Revelation 17:15 which states:
“And he says to me: â??The WATERS that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.”
So if you take both of those verses, you see that SEA and WATERS means people and if you apply people to Revelation 12:12 then the verse becomes more understandable and shows that when Satan is cast out of heaven and thrown to the earth it is going to be WOE or BAD for the earth and people.
Now as far as our “leaders” stating when Armegeddon would come. I will try to make this as brief as possible. First of all we don’t have leaders except for one: Jesus Christ. When we were in our infancy as a group of people in the late 1800’s we misunderstood a Bible prophecy and thought 1914 would be the date Armageddon would come. There are several scriptures in the Bible that when applied to a certain date in history took us to the year 1914. So we knew 1914 would be a year of significance but we wrongly thought that Armegeddon was going to come. Shortly after 1914 we realized that this year meant something else which was almost as important. Bible prophecy shows that that was when something the Bible terms the LAST DAYS started. Some people will say that we said 1975 was a year Armegeddon would come. Although, this was never printed in any of our magazines as a certainty, according to my father too much emphasis was put on that year(I was borne in 77). Because too much emphasis was put on that date we realized we made a mistake and from that point forware will never again put a date on Armegeddon. We never said we are a perfect organization we’re all imperfect men. The below quote is taken from one of our Watchtower magazines in 1980:
“If we remain faithful, God will not let us make ruinous mistakes. But sometimes he permits us to be in error so that we may see our need to look always to him and his Word. This strengthens our relationship with him and our endurance while waiting. We learn from our mistakes that it is necessary to be more careful in the future. The desire for the new system of things to take complete charge of the earth has always been very strong in Christians down through the centuries. And because of their own short life-span, they doubtless longed for it to come in their particular lifetime. Those who have tried to keep Godâ??s judgment time â??close in mindâ?? have, on more than one occasion throughout history, become overly eager for that dayâ??s arrival, in their own minds trying to rush the arrival of the desired events. In the first century, for example, the apostle Paul found it necessary to write to Christians in Thessalonica in this fashion, as we read at 2Thesselonians 2:1-3 â??However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. Let no one seduce you in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.”
Again, although we never officially said that 1975 was going to be the year we did place too much emphasis on it and we realized that we made a mistake. Since I’ve been alive I have not heard one date mentioned as to when Armegeddon would come.[/quote]
At least you are willing to discuss it and I admire your willingness to talk about it. Honest_Lifter denied it flat out that it ever happened. You are forthcoming with your beliefs and again I thank you for that. Honest_Lifter tried to act as if he was a Christian and hide the fact he was a Jehovah’s Witness. He denied every bit of evidence that I questioned him with about the Jehovah’s Witness. You two are my first encounter with JWs. Even though neither one of us will change each others mind, I have to say you are firm in your belief. If I am wrong and you are right then my works will speak for themselves, but if you are wrong and I am right you guys will have some serious problems in the after life. Thank you for the discussion.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
This issue is you can not logically interpret the Bible.
[/quote]
TRUTH
TRUTH
FALSE
If you believe in Jesus, that means you love Jesus and that you already know if Jesus is God or not.
Religion/God should be a personal experience. Not something that is passed down from other people’s heads.
Be yourself. Think for yourself.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I think some are confused on what free will actually is. Free will is the ability to choose any of the options that are available. Simple as that, knowledge does not hamper free will, it may help you in your decision, but it does not hamper it. The most extreme case of free will is when someone will use lethal force against you if you choose the option that they do not want you to choose, yet you choose it.[/quote]
A dog has 2 bowls of food. Bowl A and Bowl B. It chooses to eat from bowl A. Free will?
You say no.
Why? Perhaps because it is getting driven by its programming.
The man has the same 2 bowls of food. He chooses Bowl B.
Now you say free will.
Why? I say no.
The man is still be driven by programming.
The programming of desires, beliefs, and the nature of man to always choose the most appealing option/highest value in any given situation. Ie. What he thinks is Good…“Right”
Does the man “choose” his tastes? Do you really decide your desires?
-If this was true, I would have broccoli taste like ice cream for myself.
Does man “choose” his beliefs? For the sake of this convo, can you choose not to belief in Christ as your savior? Can you believe that this world is going to blow up in 5 min?
-Nope. You can brainwash yourself (this has been proven), but it takes an considerable amount of time. Its not something you can do immediately.
Does man ever “choose” a decision he feels is not the best option, aka the most bang for the buck?
- Enquire into this one. Even CS Lewis has stated all men are trying to do good… it is just some of us use misguided ways of attaining it.
You cannot choose these because they are all dependent on the past. Your tastes and desires/ human nature primarily on Genetics… your beliefs primarily on conditioning…
Genetics loads the gun. The environment pulls the trigger.
so. Back to our example.
Man chooses B.
- He thinks B tastes good.
- He has belief B is good for him.
But he can still “choose” Bowl A, right?
By why doesnt he??
3) He puts 1 and 2 together = B has the most value for himself.
If he was attempting to prove his free will, he may choose bowl A even though it tastes gross and is bad for him. Why? Because obviously proving free will in this specific instance has become a higher value situation than eating bowl B.
So in conclusion, our programming may be more complex than the dogs because of consciousness, but it is programming none-the-less… and it is driving us…
We are not driving ourselves.
We are not free.
ps- Have you ever met anyone who has spent a lot of time researching genes, the biology of our brain, psychology of influence , nature of beliefs, etc. that has believed in us having a considerable amount of free will?
“What you dont know you dont know”
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]Beara33 wrote:
There is more to Christianity than the Bible. The holy Mysteries and Sacrements and traditions that have been passed down since the time of the apostles must be taken into account as well as our Holy Fathers, the Saints who have come before us.
Quite simply God is the Triune spirit, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all at once. 1 + 1 + 1 equals 3 not 1 logically. However God is beyond human logic. Look closely at other religions. Buddha, Mohammed, Confucious all of these teachings are of logic, logic which makes sense to man. Don’t look at the Bible and try to interpret it using human logic because you will fail to understand the Truth. Therefore arguing that the Son is seperate from the Father is representative of human logic, not an understanding in faith of the Truth. [/quote]
There is no good evidence to know whether Jesus was God, his son, or an imaginary person. I don’t know how you guys would prove this using the Bible that has been rewritten countless times by various authors who modified it along the way. That evidence would be thrown out in any court of law.
You can choose to throw out logic, but at least logically use punctuation. Saying “Truth” doesn’t magically mean it’s any different than “truth”.[/quote]
Used a capital as a sign of respect. There is truth and then there is the Truth, being God in this case.
Now I’m not throwing out logic I am just saying that in order to understand that which is above and beyond our mortal intellect is something which cannot be understood using human logic. It’s something beyond our capacity to understand.
The proof isn’t found in a book, it’s been passed down since the time of the Apostles and through the Saints and the Church. It’s having an actual relationship with Jesus and having him guide you, this is the proof, the relationship through prayer, not what’s written in a book.
You seem pretty smart, read the Bible, take a course on your spare time, try and understand where Christians are coming from, if at the end you hold the same opinion at least it’s an educated one after having done your homework. I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m judging here, I can’t stand preachiness and christians being judgemental of other religions and schools of thought, just saying look into it some more if you already haven’t.
By the way here I wuz thinkin that I could write real good and stuff, thanks for the english advices. While we’re on punctuation here was there really any reason for those quotation marks?
[quote]Beara33 wrote:
There is more to Christianity than the Bible. The holy Mysteries and Sacrements and traditions that have been passed down since the time of the apostles must be taken into account as well as our Holy Fathers, the Saints who have come before us.
Quite simply God is the Triune spirit, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all at once. 1 + 1 + 1 equals 3 not 1 logically. However God is beyond human logic. Look closely at other religions. Buddha, Mohammed, Confucious all of these teachings are of logic, logic which makes sense to man. Don’t look at the Bible and try to interpret it using human logic because you will fail to understand the Truth. Therefore arguing that the Son is seperate from the Father is representative of human logic, not an understanding in faith of the Truth. [/quote]
God being beyond human logic is how most people explain the Trinity. They use this reasoning because they realize that the Trinity does not make sense and the teaching CANNOT be found in the Bible. God used humans to write the Bible for humans. He didn’t use angels to write the Bible for other angels. If that were the case then the things in the Bible may be beyond human comprehesion and logic. The Bible cleary states that it was written for our instruction at Romans 15:2 which states:
“For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.”
2 Timothy 3:16,17 states:
“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.”
Those two scriptures show that the Bible was written for humans to understand and to look to SET THINGS STRAIGHT in other words to find the ANSWERS and be INSTRUCTED by.
I quoted scripture after scripture to show the true relationship between Jesus and God. I know my post are crazy long and because of that maybe you didn’t read them. But from talking to people about the Bible it looks like once someone has his mind made up no amount of scripture can change it. In Jesus’ day miracles couldn’t change peoples mind and it looks like today the Bible cannot either. And that is truly sad.
[quote]mse2us wrote:
But from talking to people about the Bible it looks like once someone has his mind made up no amount of scripture can change it.
[/quote]
And once one has read the bible and believed in it, no amount of reason can change it.
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]Beara33 wrote:
There is more to Christianity than the Bible. The holy Mysteries and Sacrements and traditions that have been passed down since the time of the apostles must be taken into account as well as our Holy Fathers, the Saints who have come before us.
Quite simply God is the Triune spirit, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all at once. 1 + 1 + 1 equals 3 not 1 logically. However God is beyond human logic. Look closely at other religions. Buddha, Mohammed, Confucious all of these teachings are of logic, logic which makes sense to man. Don’t look at the Bible and try to interpret it using human logic because you will fail to understand the Truth. Therefore arguing that the Son is seperate from the Father is representative of human logic, not an understanding in faith of the Truth. [/quote]
God being beyond human logic is how most people explain the Trinity. They use this reasoning because they realize that the Trinity does not make sense and the teaching CANNOT be found in the Bible. God used humans to write the Bible for humans. He didn’t use angels to write the Bible for other angels. If that were the case then the things in the Bible may be beyond human comprehesion and logic. The Bible cleary states that it was written for our instruction at Romans 15:2 which states:
“For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.”
2 Timothy 3:16,17 states:
“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.”
Those two scriptures show that the Bible was written for humans to understand and to look to SET THINGS STRAIGHT in other words to find the ANSWERS and be INSTRUCTED by.
I quoted scripture after scripture to show the true relationship between Jesus and God. I know my post are crazy long and because of that maybe you didn’t read them. But from talking to people about the Bible it looks like once someone has his mind made up no amount of scripture can change it. In Jesus’ day miracles couldn’t change peoples mind and it looks like today the Bible cannot either. And that is truly sad.[/quote]
There are other publications centuries old such as the Lives of Saints and other writings of the Holy Fathers which address this topic. Jesus didn’t stop having contact when the Bible was published and simply dissapear. Others after him have performed miracles, these Saints lived the ascetic life and did some truly wonderful things for people with guidance of Jesus Christ. Christianity doesn’t begin and end with the Bible, there were teachings before and after which further instruct his people. Not all of the answers are to be found in the scriptures. I read your posts and appreciate the detail and time you put into them by the way.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Guys, I was reading my Bible tonight, and I asked God to show me a passage that prooves that Jesus is God. He led me to Revelation. As I have seen from your literal interpretation of all the numbers and things in this book these verses really stood out to me. Revelation 1:17-18, John says,"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid, I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.”
Who was the only one that was dead and now alive? Jesus. Since this is Jesus talking and he was the First and the Last, and God is the Alpha and the Omega the begining and the End please tell me who Jesus is?[/quote]
I’m sorry Dmaddox I missed that question. That’s a great question! Here Jesus is referring to his unique resurrection. Jesus was the FIRST human resurrected to heavenly life. Colossian 1:18 states:
“and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things.”
Jesus also said this at John 3:13 which states:
“Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”
So none of the humans including faithful ones such as David and Abraham went to heaven when they died. Jesus’ death opened the way for humans to go to heaven. So he can rightly be First or Firstborn or Beginning as far as the resurrection is concerned.
And Jesus is the LAST to be resurrected by God PERSONALLY. How so? It’s because God has given Jesus the authority to resurrect people. That’s why in the last sentence of the above verse it states that he is holding the keys to Death and Hades or Death and the GRAVE.
John 6:40 states:
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.”
God has also given Jesus the authority to judge mankind. John 5:22 states:
“For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son,”
So God has given Jesus the authority to JUDGE AND RESURRECT.
So Jesus is FIRST in that he was the FIRST to be resurrected to heavenly life and he is LAST because he the LAST to be resurrected by God personally because now Jesus does the resurrecting.
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Guys, I was reading my Bible tonight, and I asked God to show me a passage that prooves that Jesus is God. He led me to Revelation. As I have seen from your literal interpretation of all the numbers and things in this book these verses really stood out to me. Revelation 1:17-18, John says,"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid, I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.”
Who was the only one that was dead and now alive? Jesus. Since this is Jesus talking and he was the First and the Last, and God is the Alpha and the Omega the begining and the End please tell me who Jesus is?[/quote]
I’m sorry Dmaddox I missed that question. That’s a great question! Here Jesus is referring to his unique resurrection. Jesus was the FIRST human resurrected to heavenly life. Colossian 1:18 states:
“and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things.”
Jesus also said this at John 3:13 which states:
“Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”
So none of the humans including faithful ones such as David and Abraham went to heaven when they died. Jesus’ death opened the way for humans to go to heaven. So he can rightly be First or Firstborn or Beginning as far as the resurrection is concerned.
And Jesus is the LAST to be resurrected by God PERSONALLY. How so? It’s because God has given Jesus the authority to resurrect people. That’s why in the last sentence of the above verse it states that he is holding the keys to Death and Hades or Death and the GRAVE.
John 6:40 states:
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.”
God has also given Jesus the authority to judge mankind. John 5:22 states:
“For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son,”
So God has given Jesus the authority to JUDGE AND RESURRECT.
So Jesus is FIRST in that he was the FIRST to be resurrected to heavenly life and he is LAST because he the LAST to be resurrected by God personally because now Jesus does the resurrecting.[/quote]
I was using the part about the ressurrection to prove who was speaking in those verses. That being Jesus who was speaking he stated that he was the first and the last. By Jesus stating this and it being use earlier in verse 8. "I am the Alph and the Omega, the Begining and the End, says the Lord. "Who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. This is Jesus stating he is God. Who was the first, God, who was the last, God. These were all Jesus talking to John. Jesus is God. This is just one instance. I will have to do more research and prayer to get more words from the Holy Spirit. Just think about it.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Guys, I was reading my Bible tonight, and I asked God to show me a passage that prooves that Jesus is God. He led me to Revelation. As I have seen from your literal interpretation of all the numbers and things in this book these verses really stood out to me. Revelation 1:17-18, John says,"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid, I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.”
Who was the only one that was dead and now alive? Jesus. Since this is Jesus talking and he was the First and the Last, and God is the Alpha and the Omega the begining and the End please tell me who Jesus is?[/quote]
I’m sorry Dmaddox I missed that question. That’s a great question! Here Jesus is referring to his unique resurrection. Jesus was the FIRST human resurrected to heavenly life. Colossian 1:18 states:
“and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things.”
Jesus also said this at John 3:13 which states:
“Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”
So none of the humans including faithful ones such as David and Abraham went to heaven when they died. Jesus’ death opened the way for humans to go to heaven. So he can rightly be First or Firstborn or Beginning as far as the resurrection is concerned.
And Jesus is the LAST to be resurrected by God PERSONALLY. How so? It’s because God has given Jesus the authority to resurrect people. That’s why in the last sentence of the above verse it states that he is holding the keys to Death and Hades or Death and the GRAVE.
John 6:40 states:
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.”
God has also given Jesus the authority to judge mankind. John 5:22 states:
“For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son,”
So God has given Jesus the authority to JUDGE AND RESURRECT.
So Jesus is FIRST in that he was the FIRST to be resurrected to heavenly life and he is LAST because he the LAST to be resurrected by God personally because now Jesus does the resurrecting.[/quote]
I was using the part about the ressurrection to prove who was speaking in those verses. That being Jesus who was speaking he stated that he was the first and the last. By Jesus stating this and it being use earlier in verse 8. "I am the Alph and the Omega, the Begining and the End, says the Lord. "Who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. This is Jesus stating he is God. Who was the first, God, who was the last, God. These were all Jesus talking to John. Jesus is God. This is just one instance. I will have to do more research and prayer to get more words from the Holy Spirit. Just think about it.[/quote]
Again, God is referred to as the Almighty and Jesus is not. When God states that he is the First and Last or the Alpha and Omega he is talking about his unique position as the ONLY GOD.
This is stated at Isaiah 44:6 which states:
“This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, â??I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.”
When Jesus states he is the First and the Last he’s talking about his resurrection and not being God Almighty. That scripture does not state clearly the relationship between God and Jesus like the MANY other scriptures that I quoted. It’s like people are so desperate to hold onto their belief that they’ll ignore clear and direct scriptures or worse yet, believe reasoning that a doctrine is beyond human comprehension to understand and because of that one should not question it but just accept the teaching. Why is that?