God and Hell

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

[quote]mse2us wrote:
I’ve been reading this thread and I see people are asking some great questions! I would like to respond to the original topic of this thread. According to the Bible God created humans to live on earth. Genesis 1:28 states that the first human pair were to “become fruitful and become many,” so had the first human pair not sinned God’s original purpose for humans was that Adam and Eve along with their perfect children to eventually extend the Garden of Eden throughout the whole earth. That’s why Isaiah 45:18 states "The Lord created the heavens. He is God. He formed the earth and made it. He set it firmly in place. He didn’t create it to be empty. Instead, he formed it for people to live on. He says, “I am the Lord. There is no other Lord.” That’s why there are many scriptures such as Psalm 37:29 that states “the meek one themselves will possess the earth,” and Jesus also stated this at Matthew 5:5 where he said “Happy are the mild tempered since they will inherit the earth.” But we all know that God’s original purpose for humnans got side tracked when Adam and Eve sinned. But if we look the first couple of chapters of Genesis we can find the answers to alot of questions that are often debated such as what happens when we die and if we are tormented in Hell.

Before Adam sinned God clearly explained to Adam the restriction and the PENALTY that would be inflicted on him if he disobeyed. Genesis 2:17 clearly states “But you must not eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you do, you can be sure that you will die.” Notice that he did not say I’m going to put you in a place of torment or seperate you from me. He just said that he would DIE. The opposite of that is living forever which is the prospect Adam had in front of him had he not sinned. Once Adam sinned God went a step further and explained to him exactly what would happen when he died. Genesis 3:19 states “You will have to work hard and sweat a lot to produce the food you eat. You were made out of the ground. And you will return to it. You are dust. So you will return to it.” Again notice he did not say I’m going to make your body turn to dust and your soul or spirit is going to burn forever in fire. Adam’s penalty was just DEATH. Genesis 2:7 states “Then the Lord God formed a man. He made him out of the DUST OF THE GROUND. He breathed the breath of life into him. And the man became a living person.” That’s how God created humans. The same elements found in dust God used to create us. Notice it does not state that Body was formed from the dust and a spirit and soul was added to become a living person.

Roman 5:12 links the penalty that was giving to Adam to all of his descendants. The verse states “Sin entered the world because one man sinned. And death came because of sin. Everyone sinned, so death came to all people.” Romans 6:23 explains this further which states “When you sin, THE PAY YOU GET IS DEATH. But God gives you the gift of eternal life because of what Christ Jesus our Lord has done.” And that is why once you die Romans 6:7 states “For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.” How can that be? Because you have paid the penalty that God inflicted on Adam and was passed on to all of us by dying. Thats why Luke states at Acts 24:15 that there is going to be a “resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.” Again, why will unrighteous people be resurrected? It’s because they died and and Romans 6:7 states they have been acquitted or released from sin. They have paid the penalty that they have inherited from Adam. So once you die if you’re no longer held to the sins you made while alive there could not be an eternal place of torment after death.

I’m probably approaching my word limit if there is such a thing so I’ll stop here. But there are DOZENS of scriptures in the Bible that plainly and clearly state the condition of the dead and that people who go to heaven have a SPECIFIC job function once they’re there. If anyone wants to know the scriptures I’ll respond to his\her post. There is only ONE TRUTH not dozens and the Bible is not left up to interpretation. If that were the case how could God hold anyone accountable if the Bible were left up to that individual’s interpretation?[/quote]

So when it said that God casted them out of the Garden and put a firey sword to guard the garden that is here on Earth? Can you please find the firey sword for me?

Also we pay for our own sin when we die? Then what was the purpose of Jesus?

If both the unrighteous and the righteous are ressurrected does that mean we all go to heaven? What is the point of the Lake of Fire in Revelation then?

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[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
I’ve been reading this thread and I see people are asking some great questions! I would like to respond to the original topic of this thread. According to the Bible God created humans to live on earth. Genesis 1:28 states that the first human pair were to “become fruitful and become many,” so had the first human pair not sinned God’s original purpose for humans was that Adam and Eve along with their perfect children to eventually extend the Garden of Eden throughout the whole earth. That’s why Isaiah 45:18 states "The Lord created the heavens. He is God. He formed the earth and made it. He set it firmly in place. He didn’t create it to be empty. Instead, he formed it for people to live on. He says, “I am the Lord. There is no other Lord.” That’s why there are many scriptures such as Psalm 37:29 that states “the meek one themselves will possess the earth,” and Jesus also stated this at Matthew 5:5 where he said “Happy are the mild tempered since they will inherit the earth.” But we all know that God’s original purpose for humnans got side tracked when Adam and Eve sinned. But if we look the first couple of chapters of Genesis we can find the answers to alot of questions that are often debated such as what happens when we die and if we are tormented in Hell.

Before Adam sinned God clearly explained to Adam the restriction and the PENALTY that would be inflicted on him if he disobeyed. Genesis 2:17 clearly states “But you must not eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you do, you can be sure that you will die.” Notice that he did not say I’m going to put you in a place of torment or seperate you from me. He just said that he would DIE. The opposite of that is living forever which is the prospect Adam had in front of him had he not sinned. Once Adam sinned God went a step further and explained to him exactly what would happen when he died. Genesis 3:19 states “You will have to work hard and sweat a lot to produce the food you eat. You were made out of the ground. And you will return to it. You are dust. So you will return to it.” Again notice he did not say I’m going to make your body turn to dust and your soul or spirit is going to burn forever in fire. Adam’s penalty was just DEATH. Genesis 2:7 states “Then the Lord God formed a man. He made him out of the DUST OF THE GROUND. He breathed the breath of life into him. And the man became a living person.” That’s how God created humans. The same elements found in dust God used to create us. Notice it does not state that Body was formed from the dust and a spirit and soul was added to become a living person.

Roman 5:12 links the penalty that was giving to Adam to all of his descendants. The verse states “Sin entered the world because one man sinned. And death came because of sin. Everyone sinned, so death came to all people.” Romans 6:23 explains this further which states “When you sin, THE PAY YOU GET IS DEATH. But God gives you the gift of eternal life because of what Christ Jesus our Lord has done.” And that is why once you die Romans 6:7 states “For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.” How can that be? Because you have paid the penalty that God inflicted on Adam and was passed on to all of us by dying. Thats why Luke states at Acts 24:15 that there is going to be a “resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.” Again, why will unrighteous people be resurrected? It’s because they died and and Romans 6:7 states they have been acquitted or released from sin. They have paid the penalty that they have inherited from Adam. So once you die if you’re no longer held to the sins you made while alive there could not be an eternal place of torment after death.

I’m probably approaching my word limit if there is such a thing so I’ll stop here. But there are DOZENS of scriptures in the Bible that plainly and clearly state the condition of the dead and that people who go to heaven have a SPECIFIC job function once they’re there. If anyone wants to know the scriptures I’ll respond to his\her post. There is only ONE TRUTH not dozens and the Bible is not left up to interpretation. If that were the case how could God hold anyone accountable if the Bible were left up to that individual’s interpretation?[/quote]

So when it said that God casted them out of the Garden and put a firey sword to guard the garden that is here on Earth? Can you please find the firey sword for me?

Also we pay for our own sin when we die? Then what was the purpose of Jesus?

If both the unrighteous and the righteous are ressurrected does that mean we all go to heaven? What is the point of the Lake of Fire in Revelation then?[/quote]
Good questions! Genesis 3:24 states:
“And so he drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of E´den the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life.”

So this verse shows that God prevented Adam and Eve from gaining access to the Garden of Eden so they would not be able to eat from the Tree of Life.

The purpose of Jesus is for several reasons. First, because Adam sinned and death was the penalty that was passed to all of his descendants 1 Corinthians 15:22 states:
“For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.” Jesus’ death made it possible to undo that penalty that was given to Adam and all of his descendants and make possible for Adam’s descendants to have the chance of living forever. That’s why at 1 Corinthiansn 15:45 it states:
“It is even so written: â??The first man Adam became a living soul.â?? The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” And Romans 6:23 states:
“When you sin, THE PAY YOU GET IS DEATH. But God gives you the gift of eternal life because of what Christ Jesus our Lord has done.” Another perfect human had to die or be sacrificed to atone for what Adam did. No amount of animals or imperfect human lives could ever equal Adam’s life. Only another perfect human which is why Jesus had to be fully human for his sacrifice to pay the ransom for the human race.

The other reason is for the sins that we make daily due to the imperfect state we are in. God required the nation of Israel to regularly offer animal sacrifices so that their sins that they made could be forgiven. Jesus sacrifice was the ultimate sacrifice that’s why Hebrews 10:10 states:
“By the said â??willâ?? we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.”
Jesus death ended the requirement for regular animal sacrifices to have sins forgiven. Putting faith in Jesus’ sacrifice replaces animal sacrifices and is THE FIRST STEP to being in an approved state with God and Jesus.

The fact that the unrighteous and the righteous are resurrected does not mean that they all go to heaven. The Bible mentions two outcomes for those God deems righteous. Look at the top of my first post for the scriptures about people living on earth. But Jesus himself mentions the two outcome. Matthew 5:1 states: Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them." Matthew 5:5 states: “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.” Clearly two outcomes: a heavenly hope and an earthly hope. Luke 12:32 sheds some light on what Jesus was talking about it states:
Have no fear, LITTLE FLOCK, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom." So here Jesus does not give a number but calls the flock or group LITTLE. Which means that the number is going to be limited. Now some people will say that LITTLE could mean Billions to God. But if we look the Bible, the Bible uses terms to denote large and small for example Hebrews 12:22 states that there are “myriads of angels.” Which means there is an untold number of angels.

At John 10:16 Jesus mentions another group or flock of sheep that verse states:
“And I have OTHER sheep, WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” So here Jesus is saying that he has another group that is not part of the LITTLE FLOCK that God approved of giving the Kingdom to. At this point it’s still not clear how many go to heaven, but what is clear that there are two groups of people: one with an earthly hope the other with a heavenly hope.

Revelation 14:1-3 finally reveals the number number of people in heaven:
“And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.”

This small group or LITTLE FLOCK that come from the earth have the name of God and Jesus on their foreheads standing with Jesus in Heaven singing a song that only they could master.

Revelation 14:6 talks about the OTHER SHEEP who are on EARTH:
“And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,”

Again two hopes: an earthly hope and a heavenly hope.

Also the people who go to heaven have specific functions when they are there. That Kingdom mentioned at Daniel 2:44 which states:
“And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite.”

This is the Kingdom that Jesus often talked about in the Gospels that he will be king of. Jesus is going to have co-rulers who rule with him. These are the people who go to heaven.
Second Timothy 2:12 states:
“if we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings.”
Revelation 5:10 states:
“and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

There are other scripture but due to the length of this post I won’t mention on this post. People who go to heaven are there for a specific reason and the Bible makes it clear that it is not everyone. Most people will live on the earth.

Since this is getting long I’ll try to breifly explain from the Bible what the Lake of Fire and Sulpher is. The Lake of Fire and Sulpher which is also called the Second Death means ETERNAL DESTRUCTION. It does not mean HELL. In fact Hell is not even mentioned in the Bible. The King James translation mentions HELL but most translation uses HADES which is the Greek word for the GRAVE in place of HELL. Notice what the King James Bible states about Hell at Revelation 20:14 & 15:
“And DEATH and HELL were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

If the Lake of Fire and Sulpher were HELL, then how could HELL be cast into HELL? Modern translation use Hades in place for Hell which again is the Greek word for the Grave so those verses mean that BOTH DEATH AND THE GRAVE ARE GOING TO BE ETERNALLY DESTROYED. This goes along with Isaiah 25:8 that state “he will swollow up Death forever.” and 1 Corinthians 15:26 which states that “the last enemy Death is brought to nothing.” Revelation offers a clear picture of how Death and Grave are brought to nothing - they are thrown into the Lake of Fire and Sulpher. All humans are subject to the first death and once they die they pay that price and are given a second chance but anything that is part of the second death there is no hope for return, being forever destroyed is the final outcome.

Remember who the readers and listeners of the Bible were at that time. What was the most destructive force at that time? Heat, Fire. Add sulpher to fire and it gets even hotter. Today if someone were to say that a nuke was going to drop on a person, anyone who heard that would understand that the unfortunate person would be completely destoyred, vaporized. There would be no chance that any part of that person would survive. Likewise, the Bible readers of that time would have understood that passage to mean that whoever or whatever was going into the Lake of Fire and Sulpher would be completely destroyed and there was no chance that that person or thing would come back.

I know this is long so I’ll stop here. Remember, there is only ONE TRUTH and the ONLY way to find the TRUTH is by turning to the Bible.

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I dont mean to be an ass, but can you put your thoughts in english with out copying and pasting from the WatchTower?

Also you did not answer my first question about the firey sword. If you beleive Eden is Earth then the Firey Sword is somewhere on this planet, and we can still find the garden of Eden.

Also the original readers of the Bible knew that fire was a form of punishment and that it really hurt. There were many people who survived the nuclear blasts in Japan from WWII. Those people were living in “Hell” even after the blasts. So I beleive your argument for no “Hell” holds no water, no pun intented. People of the time the Bible was written beleived in Hell and knew that if they did not follow the Law of the Old Testament they would go there. After Jesus defeated death then there was Grace that allows believers to go to Heaven. If you want proof several more scholarly people than I have posted several rebutals to Honest_Lifters Posts on this topic in this thread. Check them out.

I am glad you read the Bible, and admire your ability to go door to door handing out tracks, but the Bible spells it out differently than your leaders think it does. I am going to follow the traditions of the Church that have links to the apostles that gave us the New Testament or Greek Scriptures if you like. Than people from the 1900’s who did not like the Bible that was given to them so they changed the translation to fit their beliefs.

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Forgot about the interpretation of the 144,000. If you knew Jewish tradtion that number just means a large quantity of people. It is not a specific number. Numbers to Hebrews have deaper meaning than just a number.

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[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I dont mean to be an ass, but can you put your thoughts in english with out copying and pasting from the WatchTower?

Also you did not answer my first question about the firey sword. If you beleive Eden is Earth then the Firey Sword is somewhere on this planet, and we can still find the garden of Eden.

Also the original readers of the Bible knew that fire was a form of punishment and that it really hurt. There were many people who survived the nuclear blasts in Japan from WWII. Those people were living in “Hell” even after the blasts. So I beleive your argument for no “Hell” holds no water, no pun intented. People of the time the Bible was written beleived in Hell and knew that if they did not follow the Law of the Old Testament they would go there. After Jesus defeated death then there was Grace that allows believers to go to Heaven. If you want proof several more scholarly people than I have posted several rebutals to Honest_Lifters Posts on this topic in this thread. Check them out.

I am glad you read the Bible, and admire your ability to go door to door handing out tracks, but the Bible spells it out differently than your leaders think it does. I am going to follow the traditions of the Church that have links to the apostles that gave us the New Testament or Greek Scriptures if you like. Than people from the 1900’s who did not like the Bible that was given to them so they changed the translation to fit their beliefs.[/quote]
I didn’t quote one single line from the Watchtower. And as for the fiery sword…I don’t believe that Eden is on earth. Eden WAS on earth thousands of years ago and was destroyed during the flood, so Eden no longer exist. But the Garden of Eden shows that God wants humans to live in paradise like conditions like he did with our first parents and the Bible shows that he will soon make the earth like the Garden of Eden.

When I used the example of the most destructive thing today a nuclear bomb was the first thing to come to mind. In Japan no one survived the blast at the epicenter. Likewise today if an Atomic bomb were to directly hit someone no part of that person would survive. Show me one single scripture from the Old or New Testament that shows people believed in HELL and if they were bad they would be tormented there. And I’m not talking about when Jesus said people would be thrown into the fiery furnace because again fire in the Bible symbolizes complete destruction. Ecclesiastes 9:5 and 10 is what people of the Old Testament and New Testament believed which states:
“The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no more reward, and even the memory of them is lost. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished; never again will they have any share in all that happens under the sun”

and verse 10

“Whatever your hand finds to do, do with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.”

And what’s stated in Psalms 146:3 and 4 which states:
“Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.”

Or the fact that Ezekiel 3:19 & 20 compares man to beast which states:
“For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.”

The ancient Bible readers would not have believed that a part of them was going to survive after death. They would have believed that once they died that they weren’t concious and they were going to return to the dust.

As far as changing the translation, I have quoted scriptures from several different translations. I can show you all the scriptures that I quoted from your favorite translation it makes no difference.

You can also line up as many scholarly people that you can find. They will not be able change what the Bible teaches.

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[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Forgot about the interpretation of the 144,000. If you knew Jewish tradtion that number just means a large quantity of people. It is not a specific number. Numbers to Hebrews have deaper meaning than just a number.[/quote]
The 144,000 has nothing to do to with the Jewish tradition. The book of Revelation was not written to the nation of Israel. It was written to the Christian congregations that existed in 96 C.E. such as Ephesus and Smyrna. No, 144,000 thousand is an exact number. Revelation 6:9 uses the term “Great Crowd” this is a term that means large quantity of people.

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[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Forgot about the interpretation of the 144,000. If you knew Jewish tradtion that number just means a large quantity of people. It is not a specific number. Numbers to Hebrews have deaper meaning than just a number.[/quote]
The 144,000 has nothing to do to with the Jewish tradition. The book of Revelation was not written to the nation of Israel. It was written to the Christian congregations that existed in 96 C.E. such as Ephesus and Smyrna. No, 144,000 thousand is an exact number. Revelation 6:9 uses the term “Great Crowd” this is a term that means large quantity of people.[/quote]

So the apostles where Christians and not Jews? Didn’t the Holy Spirit come down during a Hebrew festival? Didn’t the Holy Spirit descend on the Hebrews first in Jerusalem? Didn’t Paul preach in the synogogues first? He reached out to the Hebrews first, and when rejected they would then go to the gentiles who were Hebrew sympothizers. These were Gentiles that understood the Hebrew Religion, and understood what was being read from the letters. All throughout the New Testament the Christians were participating in Jewish Festivals. Even the Gentiles were practicing them. You really need to study History to truely understand what the Bible means. Any Hebrew Rabbi could explain the number 144,000 to you, but since you rely on the Bible and your leaders are more in tune to what God really meant to say that makes you right? I think I am going to go with the Jewish Rabbi. Wasn’t Paul, formorally know as Saul, taught in the ways of Jewish law and customs, and wasn’t he a Hebrew? You all just dont get the customs part.

On the fact about Hell there is a great deposition by I think Black Sheep on the place for Hell. I think it is in the Church or the Bible thread. Have you talked to a Jewish Rabbi about the Hebrew Custom on the idea of Hell? I guess not because your leaders wont allow it. We have been through this debate before. I hope you guys are right on there being no Hell, but the Bible and tradition of both the Christian Church and the Jewish Synogogue traditions say differently.

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mse2us I have to thank you for being open to questions and forth coming with your beliefs. At least you did not try to hide what religion you are. I am being very serious and not being sarcastic.

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[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Forgot about the interpretation of the 144,000. If you knew Jewish tradtion that number just means a large quantity of people. It is not a specific number. Numbers to Hebrews have deaper meaning than just a number.[/quote]
The 144,000 has nothing to do to with the Jewish tradition. The book of Revelation was not written to the nation of Israel. It was written to the Christian congregations that existed in 96 C.E. such as Ephesus and Smyrna. No, 144,000 thousand is an exact number. Revelation 6:9 uses the term “Great Crowd” this is a term that means large quantity of people.[/quote]

So the apostles where Christians and not Jews? Didn’t the Holy Spirit come down during a Hebrew festival? Didn’t the Holy Spirit descend on the Hebrews first in Jerusalem? Didn’t Paul preach in the synogogues first? He reached out to the Hebrews first, and when rejected they would then go to the gentiles who were Hebrew sympothizers. These were Gentiles that understood the Hebrew Religion, and understood what was being read from the letters. All throughout the New Testament the Christians were participating in Jewish Festivals. Even the Gentiles were practicing them. You really need to study History to truely understand what the Bible means. Any Hebrew Rabbi could explain the number 144,000 to you, but since you rely on the Bible and your leaders are more in tune to what God really meant to say that makes you right? I think I am going to go with the Jewish Rabbi. Wasn’t Paul, formorally know as Saul, taught in the ways of Jewish law and customs, and wasn’t he a Hebrew? You all just dont get the customs part.

On the fact about Hell there is a great deposition by I think Black Sheep on the place for Hell. I think it is in the Church or the Bible thread. Have you talked to a Jewish Rabbi about the Hebrew Custom on the idea of Hell? I guess not because your leaders wont allow it. We have been through this debate before. I hope you guys are right on there being no Hell, but the Bible and tradition of both the Christian Church and the Jewish Synogogue traditions say differently.[/quote]
The Apostle’s nationality was Jewish and they followed the Mosaic Law. They also preached to the Jews only for about 3 1/2 years then they were instructed to preach to the Gentiles. The nation of Israel was God’s chosen people until they rejected Jesus. So of course the Christian faith started with people who descended from Abraham and were natural born Jews. But they had to stop practicing Judisim and the Mosaic and put faith in Jesus. Shortly after Jesus ascended to heaven the Christian congregation was formed and the members had to leave Judaism and become Christians. They no longer had to get circumcised, not eat pork and continue to make animal sacrifices. Paul is the perfect example of this. He had to stop practicing Judaism and practice Christianity. Acts 26:4-6 states:
â??Indeed, as to the manner of life from youth up that I led from [the] beginning among my nation and in Jerusalem, all the Jews that have been previously acquainted with me from the first know, if they but wish to bear witness, that according to the strictest sect of our form of worship I lived a Pharisee. And yet now for the hope of the promise that was made by God to our forefathers I stand called to judgment."

Galations 1:13-17 states:
YOU, of course, heard about my conduct formerly in Ju´da·ism, that to the point of excess I kept on persecuting the congregation of God and devastating it, and I was making greater progress in Ju´da·ism than many of my own age in my race, as I was far more zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who separated me from my motherâ??s womb and called [me] through his undeserved kindness, thought good to reveal his Son in connection with me, that I might declare the good news about him to the nations, I did not go at once into conference with flesh and blood."

There are several other scriptures that I could quote that shows that the First Century Christians had to leave Judaism behind but I’m going to try to keep this post short.

History is not necessary to know what the Bible really teaches. It can help a little with one’s understanding and when that person tries to explain the Bible to other people but it is not absolutely necessary.

As far as customs and traditions of Jewish rabbis go. Notice what Jesus said about the Pharisee’s who were more concerned about tradition. Matthew 15:3-9 states:

In reply he said to them: â??Why is it YOU also overstep the commandment of God because of YOUR tradition? For example, God said, â??Honor your father and your motherâ??; and, â??Let him that reviles father or mother end up in death.â?? But YOU say, â??Whoever says to his father or mother: â??Whatever I have by which you might get benefit from me is a gift dedicated to God,â?? he must not honor his father at all.â?? And so YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR tradition. YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, â??This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines."

Worrying about the customs and traditions of Jewish rabbis is not necessary to know what the Bible really teaches.

Dmoddox, you have quoted one scripture in any of your post. Show me some scriptures from the Bible to support your beliefs.

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[quote]dmaddox wrote:
mse2us I have to thank you for being open to questions and forth coming with your beliefs. At least you did not try to hide what religion you are. I am being very serious and not being sarcastic.[/quote]
I too appreciate the fact that you’re willing to talk about religion. This is something I love talking about and as you can see from the length of my post am very serious about.

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[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
mse2us I have to thank you for being open to questions and forth coming with your beliefs. At least you did not try to hide what religion you are. I am being very serious and not being sarcastic.[/quote]
I too appreciate the fact that you’re willing to talk about religion. This is something I love talking about and as you can see from the length of my post am very serious about.[/quote]

I am glad you are serious. Biblically misguided, but serious non the less.

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[quote]mse2us wrote:

Dmoddox, you have quoted one scripture in any of your post. Show me some scriptures from the Bible to support your beliefs.[/quote]

You guys worship the Bible. Would this not compare you to the Pharasees love of the Law? By saying works are necessary for Salvation you are saying the same thing the Pharasees said long ago.

On to the need for use of tradition in interpreting the Bible.

Luke 11:14-28. How would you explain Verse 14? What are your thoughts? Why would the Pharasees attribute his works to Beelzebub? I am trying to show what tradition does in this section of the Bible. One of the miracles preformed here proves that Jesus is the Messiah by Jewish Tradition, and in such prooves he is God.

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[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Dmoddox, you have quoted one scripture in any of your post. Show me some scriptures from the Bible to support your beliefs.[/quote]

You guys worship the Bible. Would this not compare you to the Pharasees love of the Law? By saying works are necessary for Salvation you are saying the same thing the Pharasees said long ago.

On to the need for use of tradition in interpreting the Bible.

Luke 11:14-28. How would you explain Verse 14? What are your thoughts? Why would the Pharasees attribute his works to Beelzebub? I am trying to show what tradition does in this section of the Bible. One of the miracles preformed here proves that Jesus is the Messiah by Jewish Tradition, and in such prooves he is God.[/quote]
I’m not sure I understand your question. The Pharisees attributed Jesus’ power to Satan because they did not want to believe that he was the promised Messiah. They denied obvious miracles that he performed in front of their face and instead of believing that he was the Messiah they said that it must be Satan that gave him the power. Which goes to show that no matter how many scriptures I quote most people still will not believe. You say that we worship the Bible. Now that’s a first. The Bible is the ultimate authority. Not customs, tradition or what scholars have to say. Jesus said at John 17:17 that Gods word is truth. The Bible is God words. We are to look to the Bible for the answers that’s why 2 Timothy 3:16 and 17 states:
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

But again just like the people in Jesus’ day who ignored miracles and denied he was the Messiah most people today will deny scripture to hold on to their beliefs. I can show you DOZENS of scriptures that show that Jesus and God are not the same. That when he was in heaven before he came to earth he was at God’s side and when he went back to heaven he was at God’s side. That God created Jesus so at one time he did not exist. That God is the head of Jesus like a man is head over his wife. I could go on and on. All of the scriptures are clear and straight forward. The only scripture that people use to prove that Jesus is God is John 1:1 and some translations translate that Jesus was a god or that he was divine. So if you take that verse out. You can not show from the Bible how Jesus is God. But it would not matter because God’s word the Bible is not strong enough to convince you.

Me holding the Bible as the ultimate authority is not the same as the Pharisees loving the Law.
The problem with the Pharisees was not that they believed in the law. The problem is clearly stated at Matthew 23:23 which states:
“Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but YOU have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was binding to do, yet not to disregard the other things.”

So clearly this is what Jesus was talking about when he condemned the Pharisees. When Jesus was on earth he did not teach that people should stop obeying the law. That wasn’t until after Jesus died and the Christian congregation was formed.

As far as faith and works go James 2:24 makes it clear that “faith without works is dead.”

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I think some are confused on what free will actually is. Free will is the ability to choose any of the options that are available. Simple as that, knowledge does not hamper free will, it may help you in your decision, but it does not hamper it. The most extreme case of free will is when someone will use lethal force against you if you choose the option that they do not want you to choose, yet you choose it.

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[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I think some are confused on what free will actually is. Free will is the ability to choose any of the options that are available. Simple as that, knowledge does not hamper free will, it may help you in your decision, but it does not hamper it. The most extreme case of free will is when someone will use lethal force against you if you choose the option that they do not want you to choose, yet you choose it.[/quote]

x2

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[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Dmoddox, you have quoted one scripture in any of your post. Show me some scriptures from the Bible to support your beliefs.[/quote]

You guys worship the Bible. Would this not compare you to the Pharasees love of the Law? By saying works are necessary for Salvation you are saying the same thing the Pharasees said long ago.

On to the need for use of tradition in interpreting the Bible.

Luke 11:14-28. How would you explain Verse 14? What are your thoughts? Why would the Pharasees attribute his works to Beelzebub? I am trying to show what tradition does in this section of the Bible. One of the miracles preformed here proves that Jesus is the Messiah by Jewish Tradition, and in such prooves he is God.[/quote]
I’m not sure I understand your question. The Pharisees attributed Jesus’ power to Satan because they did not want to believe that he was the promised Messiah. They denied obvious miracles that he performed in front of their face and instead of believing that he was the Messiah they said that it must be Satan that gave him the power. Which goes to show that no matter how many scriptures I quote most people still will not believe. You say that we worship the Bible. Now that’s a first. The Bible is the ultimate authority. Not customs, tradition or what scholars have to say. Jesus said at John 17:17 that Gods word is truth. The Bible is God words. We are to look to the Bible for the answers that’s why 2 Timothy 3:16 and 17 states:
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

But again just like the people in Jesus’ day who ignored miracles and denied he was the Messiah most people today will deny scripture to hold on to their beliefs. I can show you DOZENS of scriptures that show that Jesus and God are not the same. That when he was in heaven before he came to earth he was at God’s side and when he went back to heaven he was at God’s side. That God created Jesus so at one time he did not exist. That God is the head of Jesus like a man is head over his wife. I could go on and on. All of the scriptures are clear and straight forward. The only scripture that people use to prove that Jesus is God is John 1:1 and some translations translate that Jesus was a god or that he was divine. So if you take that verse out. You can not show from the Bible how Jesus is God. But it would not matter because God’s word the Bible is not strong enough to convince you.

Me holding the Bible as the ultimate authority is not the same as the Pharisees loving the Law.
The problem with the Pharisees was not that they believed in the law. The problem is clearly stated at Matthew 23:23 which states:
“Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but YOU have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was binding to do, yet not to disregard the other things.”

So clearly this is what Jesus was talking about when he condemned the Pharisees. When Jesus was on earth he did not teach that people should stop obeying the law. That wasn’t until after Jesus died and the Christian congregation was formed.

As far as faith and works go James 2:24 makes it clear that “faith without works is dead.”

[/quote]

Rabbi’s where known to have been able to cast out demons at the time of Jesus. So what would make Jesus any different from a Rabbi? The thing was that to cast out the demon of muteness could only be done by the Messiah. This is why the people asked could this be the Son of David? The Pharasees looked at their own works and what they had done. They did not want to lose their power.

Same thing in saying that you have to work for your salvation. The entire Old Testament prooves that working for salvation will never happen. The New Testament shows us how God gave us the only way to be saved. You guys are really close to the truth, just a little misguided. By you saying that it is works that saves you, you take all the Grace that God is giving us out of the equation. It is by grace that you are saved so no man can boast. Once saved will you want to work for the Lord? Yes, but being forced to work is not what it is about. By you saying that works is the way makes you like the Pharasee that gave to the church and looked down on the widow’s mite. Look how much more I have done for you. I say you are doing this for your own salvation and not for the work of the Lord.

How about worshipping Jesus? What verses in the Bible can you quote that say not to worship Jesus? The apostles called him Lord all the time. This is a form of worship. Martha worshipped him when she broke open the perfume that cost a years salary. That is very extravagant for just an angel. She beleived he was God.

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Dmaddox, Jesus was the Greatest teacher in history. What helped make him so great was his ability to take a complicated subject and explain it in simple terms. Now, you have this man who came down to earth. Performing miracles, raising the dead, expelling demons, etc. Many people may think he was God. But no man has seen God, right? So how would this great teacher take an apparently complex idea and explain it in simple terms?

He used over and over and over and over and over and over again that he is the SON and God is the FATHER. Why didn’t he use the term trinity? Why didn’t he just say they were brothers? Jesus knew what he was doing. He was the greatest teacher ever. He said father and son, because that is what they were.

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[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Dmoddox, you have quoted one scripture in any of your post. Show me some scriptures from the Bible to support your beliefs.[/quote]

You guys worship the Bible. Would this not compare you to the Pharasees love of the Law? By saying works are necessary for Salvation you are saying the same thing the Pharasees said long ago.

On to the need for use of tradition in interpreting the Bible.

Luke 11:14-28. How would you explain Verse 14? What are your thoughts? Why would the Pharasees attribute his works to Beelzebub? I am trying to show what tradition does in this section of the Bible. One of the miracles preformed here proves that Jesus is the Messiah by Jewish Tradition, and in such prooves he is God.[/quote]
I’m not sure I understand your question. The Pharisees attributed Jesus’ power to Satan because they did not want to believe that he was the promised Messiah. They denied obvious miracles that he performed in front of their face and instead of believing that he was the Messiah they said that it must be Satan that gave him the power. Which goes to show that no matter how many scriptures I quote most people still will not believe. You say that we worship the Bible. Now that’s a first. The Bible is the ultimate authority. Not customs, tradition or what scholars have to say. Jesus said at John 17:17 that Gods word is truth. The Bible is God words. We are to look to the Bible for the answers that’s why 2 Timothy 3:16 and 17 states:
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

But again just like the people in Jesus’ day who ignored miracles and denied he was the Messiah most people today will deny scripture to hold on to their beliefs. I can show you DOZENS of scriptures that show that Jesus and God are not the same. That when he was in heaven before he came to earth he was at God’s side and when he went back to heaven he was at God’s side. That God created Jesus so at one time he did not exist. That God is the head of Jesus like a man is head over his wife. I could go on and on. All of the scriptures are clear and straight forward. The only scripture that people use to prove that Jesus is God is John 1:1 and some translations translate that Jesus was a god or that he was divine. So if you take that verse out. You can not show from the Bible how Jesus is God. But it would not matter because God’s word the Bible is not strong enough to convince you.

Me holding the Bible as the ultimate authority is not the same as the Pharisees loving the Law.
The problem with the Pharisees was not that they believed in the law. The problem is clearly stated at Matthew 23:23 which states:
“Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but YOU have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was binding to do, yet not to disregard the other things.”

So clearly this is what Jesus was talking about when he condemned the Pharisees. When Jesus was on earth he did not teach that people should stop obeying the law. That wasn’t until after Jesus died and the Christian congregation was formed.

As far as faith and works go James 2:24 makes it clear that “faith without works is dead.”

[/quote]

Rabbi’s where known to have been able to cast out demons at the time of Jesus. So what would make Jesus any different from a Rabbi? The thing was that to cast out the demon of muteness could only be done by the Messiah. This is why the people asked could this be the Son of David? The Pharasees looked at their own works and what they had done. They did not want to lose their power.

Same thing in saying that you have to work for your salvation. The entire Old Testament prooves that working for salvation will never happen. The New Testament shows us how God gave us the only way to be saved. You guys are really close to the truth, just a little misguided. By you saying that it is works that saves you, you take all the Grace that God is giving us out of the equation. It is by grace that you are saved so no man can boast. Once saved will you want to work for the Lord? Yes, but being forced to work is not what it is about. By you saying that works is the way makes you like the Pharasee that gave to the church and looked down on the widow’s mite. Look how much more I have done for you. I say you are doing this for your own salvation and not for the work of the Lord.

How about worshipping Jesus? What verses in the Bible can you quote that say not to worship Jesus? The apostles called him Lord all the time. This is a form of worship. Martha worshipped him when she broke open the perfume that cost a years salary. That is very extravagant for just an angel. She beleived he was God.[/quote]
What you said in the first paragraph of the above quote may be true. I don’t know of a verse in the Bible that shows the Pharisees expelling demons. I’m not sure what point you prove or are trying to make in the first paragraph.

Works alone won’t put you in an approved state with God. Jesus made this clear when he said at Matthew 7:21 & 22 which states:
“Not everyone saying to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name? And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.”

These people not only have faith but they are also doing good works in Jesus’ name but he still is going to reject them. So it take not only faith but the right types of works to be approved by God and Jesus. The once saved always saved or JUST putting faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice being the only requirement is not a BIBLE TEACHING. Jesus said at Matthew 24:13 that he who endures to the end will be saved. So that shows that it is going to take continual effort up until the end for one to be saved.

Hebrews 10:26 makes it is clear that it is possible for Jesus’ sacrifice to no longer cover our sin. This verse states:
“For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.”
So obviously it is possible to be in a disapproved state after accepting Jesus as your Load and Savior.

Jesus being called Lord or even God does not mean he is God Almighty or the Sovereign Lord. Those title are for Jehovah God only. You will not be able to find either of those titles in the Bible referring to Jesus. God or Lord in the Bible denotes a powerful person or someone in a position of power or anything that can be worshipped. For Example, Paul called Satan a God at 2 Corinthians 4:4 which states:
“In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”

So just because Satan is referred to as a God, should he be worshipped?

Notice what 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 says about Gods and Lords:
“Now concerning the eating of foods offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even though there are those who are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many gods and many lords, there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.”

Again this scripture shows that more than just God and Jesus are called gods and lords.

Now to answer your question as to what scriptures state that Jesus should not be worshipped, I’m going to quote a scripture that is clear and simple. Jesus himself is the one who said it. It’s at Luke 4:8 which states:
"Jesus answered, “It is written, 'Worship the Lord your God. He is the only one you should serve.” Again clear and to the point. Jesus is to be given honor but God is the only one to be worshipped.

I’ll quote one more scripture which I hope will clarify things for you. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 which states:
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. For [God] subjected all things under his feet. But when he says that all things have been subjected,it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”

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I see your points on continuing to sin and losing your salvation. We must die to Christ everyday as Paul states all the time.

I like 2 Cor 4:4 as the last part of the verse clearly states who is the image of God. No angel is the image of God, but only God himself.

1 Cor 8:4-6 as stated 4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Why would Paul state “whom all things came and for whom we live” attributed to both God and Jesus? Could it be that Jesus is God? I would think so.

Luke 4:8 Amazing how Satan knows that Jesus is more powerful than him. Why would Satan temp Jesus. Maybe because God was the only entity that was more powerful than Satan. Satan wanted God to worship him so he tried to temp him as he does to every human. God in Jesus knew what he was doing and made sure Satan knew he was God, and his tempations would not work. What is also kind of Ironic is that Satan when he talks directly in the Bible he is only talking with God. Satan is not going to lower himself to talk to humans, or to other angels. In Job Satan petitions God to tempt Job. In the Gospels there is no mention of Satan asking God to temp Jesus. Oh that is right Satan is tempting God directly.

I am going to stop here because you guys are not beleivers and as stated in you verses in 1 Cor 15 read on to verse 34. I will let you two look it up. The entire chapter 15 talks about if there is no resurrection of the dead then Jesus was a fake. You can not believe in Jesus and not admit he is not God. I think this is where you all are short sighted.

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[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Dmaddox, Jesus was the Greatest teacher in history. What helped make him so great was his ability to take a complicated subject and explain it in simple terms. Now, you have this man who came down to earth. Performing miracles, raising the dead, expelling demons, etc. Many people may think he was God. But no man has seen God, right? So how would this great teacher take an apparently complex idea and explain it in simple terms?

He used over and over and over and over and over and over again that he is the SON and God is the FATHER. Why didn’t he use the term trinity? Why didn’t he just say they were brothers? Jesus knew what he was doing. He was the greatest teacher ever. He said father and son, because that is what they were. [/quote]

Jesus is either who he said he is or he is an idiot. He was more than a teacher big boy. He also said only once that he was God. At that point he was put to death. Had he said he was God at the very begining of his ministry do you think he would have made it that far? Only God knows the hearts of the people. How could an angel know what the pharasees, and the people were hiding in their hearts? Jesus did this over and over and over and over and over and over again.