Zap, you make excellent points, I think we should make an honest effort to look into renewable energy sources, limit our consumption, and so on and so forth for whatever reason. In the long run, it will benefit us. And yes, getting the ball rolling is incredibly difficult with all the lobbying groups and PACs out there lining politicians’ pockets.
The data is too complex to analyze but on top of that you get conflicting studies because of who’s backing the research.
Ummm, so I guess I just reiterated what everyone else just said, lol.
[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Real men build civilizations. They certainly don’t destroy their own countries. That this lesson is missed by so many of you tells me how little you understand about what it means to be a man.[/quote]
The data is too complex to analyze but on top of that you get conflicting studies because of who’s backing the research.
Ummm, so I guess I just reiterated what everyone else just said, lol.[/quote]
I don’t think this is an accurate assessment of the current state of affairs. The data is complex but the general trends are clear. All the eminent scientists who have studied this issue are in agreement that global warming is a serious issue and that it is being caused by humans. There is much debate about what the consequences will be, but there is no debate about whether it is happening. When the problem of ozone depletion by CFCs and halons was identified there was still scientific debate about whether it was occurring and if CFCs were really to blame. However we took a precautionary approach because most of the scientist who had seriously studied the problem thought that we needed to do something about the issue. With climate change there is no real debate, yet we (Aus and USA do nothing). It is pretty shitty that places like Europe are going above and beyond to solve a global problem whilst we sit around bitching and crying about hurting our economy.
[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
First: Kill All Lobbyists.[/quote]
LOL, I suppose that would be one way of doing it. However, some believe that lobbyists are necessary, as representative democracies do not allow for a direct relationship between the public and the government. It’s the whole “Iron Triangle Theory” – if you happen to be familiar with it.
[quote]gotaknife wrote:
With climate change there is no real debate, yet we (Aus and USA do nothing). It is pretty shitty that places like Europe are going above and beyond to solve a global problem whilst we sit around bitching and crying about hurting our economy. [/quote]
You’d be surprised that indeed there is debate. Like I said before, science, like practically everything else in life has its biases.
But what I really wanted to point out is the fact that you brought Europe’s role in environmental issues. You may be interested to know that the reason that so many European countries willingly signed onto the Kyoto Protocol is that it was indeed easier for them, and the negative impact to their economies was relatively small! Germany’s manufacturing plants are all relatively new, as East Germany’s old factories have been closed and torn down. The new, more technologically advanced plants work cleaner and more efficiently.
The UK’s primary energy source is natural gas, with nuclear energy I believe in a close second. That being said, I do believe that the EU has pledged to support “green” and environmentally friendly businesses and technologies through subsidies and such.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
This is a noble cause but many justify the use of half-truths and deception as a means to a noble end.
Kritikos, I’m not necessarily talking about you unless you agree that half-truths, deception and propaganda are appropriate tools to help lead us to Utopia. Again, I don’t think that’s where you’re coming from but many others are.[/quote]
My dear Push, I don’t believe I’ve in any way alluded to supporting the use of deceptive, hysteria-induced measures to reach a goal.
By the way, I’d like to say that the original article that started this thread really sucked.
[quote]gotaknife wrote:
… It is pretty shitty that places like Europe are going above and beyond to solve a global problem whilst we sit around bitching and crying about hurting our economy. [/quote]
Push already took care of some of your post but this part bothers me.
As far as I know most of Europe has not met their commitments.
Their politicans talk the talk but they do not walk the walk.
At least America and Australia are not pretending to do something they are not.
Forget the systems of carbon credits or pollution “trading” of any kind. Western governments need to heavily fund research into alternative, renewable fuels and give massive tax-breaks and subsidies to the initial startup costs of these power plants.
…
I agree with this in theory but in practice I think the government aid will be hijacked by the companies with the biggest lobbies, not the best technology. That is what I think is happening with corn ethanol in the US right now.
But you are right. Some money needs to be invested up front to get a payback. We just need the investors to have a better understanding of where they are putting their money so we don’t go too far don the wrong path.
I think hydrogen could be much better than electric cars. Either way we will have to raise our production of electricity to do it. [/quote]
Adjust the tax policy to give incentives or credits and you will have private capital flood into this field. No government investment required.
The data is too complex to analyze but on top of that you get conflicting studies because of who’s backing the research.
Ummm, so I guess I just reiterated what everyone else just said, lol.
I don’t think this is an accurate assessment of the current state of affairs. The data is complex but the general trends are clear. All the eminent scientists who have studied this issue are in agreement that global warming is a serious issue and that it is being caused by humans. There is much debate about what the consequences will be, but there is no debate about whether it is happening. When the problem of ozone depletion by CFCs and halons was identified there was still scientific debate about whether it was occurring and if CFCs were really to blame. However we took a precautionary approach because most of the scientist who had seriously studied the problem thought that we needed to do something about the issue. With climate change there is no real debate, yet we (Aus and USA do nothing). It is pretty shitty that places like Europe are going above and beyond to solve a global problem whilst we sit around bitching and crying about hurting our economy. [/quote]
Europe’s carbon emmissions have increased not fallen since Kyoto.
Europe signed on to Kyoto because it affects the US more then Europe and it wouldn’t hurt the US economy it would devestate it. Something that would benefit the EU.
The main issue that needs to be dealt with is the tunnel vision the GW zealots have. Scientific inquiry is not heresy, no matter what the zealots think.
Methane is a usefull product. So cow manure produces it… who gives a fuck?
The earth WILL look after itself, even if it means killing most of us off… so um… lets not push it too far… Its not so much the ocean changeing, ie thats going to kill us, its the human behaviour that is going to result when the earths patterns do change.
Lets also consider that the previous ice age had their own time lines… were they fast? slow? rapid changes? i dont like to predict how a man influenced one is going to be like…