Giving CPR in the U.S vs. Canada

Off Topic
21

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:
Yea makes me want to jump up to help people all the time. Worked ER for about 14 years we always discussed this topic so I worked with a few ER Dr’s who had been sued for malpractise for stopping at car wrecks to help. There advise was to just let someone else with no medical background render aid and run.[/quote]

In some states its required that you stop and help if you have a medical background. I remember my teachers talking about it when I was going through the EMT-B course[/quote]

Texas has that, how are you going to get caught? I make sure and never tell anybody that I saw a wreck etc.

Now if I saw a wreck and nobody was around I would give aid and stop, I am not heartless. However if there are other people around I do not stop. Sorry but it is what it is. [/quote]

yeah thats what my instructor was talking about. It would be very hard to get “caught” for not stopping but if you’re going to put some liscence plate cover or sticker on your car that hints at what you do then you could get busted.[/quote]

ER Doc’s were friends of mine very first thing they told me, no carrying scopes hanging from rear view. No stickers or vanity plates. It is a sad world we live in but…[/quote]

Does this stuff only go for having a medical license?

I’m currently training as a firefighter/first responder, so who all exactly does this liability stuff apply to?[/quote]

Well if you work for a company say a local Medic private run organization and you work under a medical director (Dr) of course to proved services while working. The company normally has a a malpractice insurance that covers you probably while working. That is of course some of the questions you would have to ask during hiring. Some medical people get there own personal malpractice however I advise not to do this again deep pockets.

Take the scenerio above and you responded and gave aid while off work and there was a bad outcome (death) then yes there is a risk of litigation.

You have to remember mom/dad/husband/wife died you are kid or spouse and there is anger at some point. They will seek some way to relieve that anger, also there are just a lot of low life mother fuckers out there that will try to turn a buck off dead family members.

My advise leave work at work and when you are off you are just a weight lifting normal guy.

22

[quote]DJHT wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:
Yea makes me want to jump up to help people all the time. Worked ER for about 14 years we always discussed this topic so I worked with a few ER Dr’s who had been sued for malpractise for stopping at car wrecks to help. There advise was to just let someone else with no medical background render aid and run.[/quote]

In some states its required that you stop and help if you have a medical background. I remember my teachers talking about it when I was going through the EMT-B course[/quote]

Texas has that, how are you going to get caught? I make sure and never tell anybody that I saw a wreck etc.

Now if I saw a wreck and nobody was around I would give aid and stop, I am not heartless. However if there are other people around I do not stop. Sorry but it is what it is. [/quote]

yeah thats what my instructor was talking about. It would be very hard to get “caught” for not stopping but if you’re going to put some liscence plate cover or sticker on your car that hints at what you do then you could get busted.[/quote]

ER Doc’s were friends of mine very first thing they told me, no carrying scopes hanging from rear view. No stickers or vanity plates. It is a sad world we live in but…[/quote]

Does this stuff only go for having a medical license?

I’m currently training as a firefighter/first responder, so who all exactly does this liability stuff apply to?[/quote]

Well if you work for a company say a local Medic private run organization and you work under a medical director (Dr) of course to proved services while working. The company normally has a a malpractice insurance that covers you probably while working. That is of course some of the questions you would have to ask during hiring. Some medical people get there own personal malpractice however I advise not to do this again deep pockets.

Take the scenerio above and you responded and gave aid while off work and there was a bad outcome (death) then yes there is a risk of litigation.

You have to remember mom/dad/husband/wife died you are kid or spouse and there is anger at some point. They will seek some way to relieve that anger, also there are just a lot of low life mother fuckers out there that will try to turn a buck off dead family members.

My advise leave work at work and when you are off you are just a weight lifting normal guy.[/quote]

This isn’t work work. This is for a volunteer fire house. This is for fun… =0)

23

[quote]Zen warrior wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:
Like everyone has stated, there are good Samaritan laws that are supposed to prevent people from being sued who are genuinely trying to help BUT they are very different state to state. You have to know the laws for the state you live in.[/quote]

I’m talking from a Canucks/tourist’s perspective here, as I visit the U.S a couple of times a year, in different states. Kind of a bother to get that info every time you go to a different state, huh?[/quote]

Well if you call a 3 minute google search that could prevent you from being tied up in law suites for months/years and possibly cost you thousands and thousands of dollars “kind of a bother”… then yes. yes it is

24

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:
Yea makes me want to jump up to help people all the time. Worked ER for about 14 years we always discussed this topic so I worked with a few ER Dr’s who had been sued for malpractise for stopping at car wrecks to help. There advise was to just let someone else with no medical background render aid and run.[/quote]

In some states its required that you stop and help if you have a medical background. I remember my teachers talking about it when I was going through the EMT-B course[/quote]

Texas has that, how are you going to get caught? I make sure and never tell anybody that I saw a wreck etc.

Now if I saw a wreck and nobody was around I would give aid and stop, I am not heartless. However if there are other people around I do not stop. Sorry but it is what it is. [/quote]

yeah thats what my instructor was talking about. It would be very hard to get “caught” for not stopping but if you’re going to put some liscence plate cover or sticker on your car that hints at what you do then you could get busted.[/quote]

ER Doc’s were friends of mine very first thing they told me, no carrying scopes hanging from rear view. No stickers or vanity plates. It is a sad world we live in but…[/quote]

Does this stuff only go for having a medical license?

I’m currently training as a firefighter/first responder, so who all exactly does this liability stuff apply to?[/quote]

Well if you work for a company say a local Medic private run organization and you work under a medical director (Dr) of course to proved services while working. The company normally has a a malpractice insurance that covers you probably while working. That is of course some of the questions you would have to ask during hiring. Some medical people get there own personal malpractice however I advise not to do this again deep pockets.

Take the scenerio above and you responded and gave aid while off work and there was a bad outcome (death) then yes there is a risk of litigation.

You have to remember mom/dad/husband/wife died you are kid or spouse and there is anger at some point. They will seek some way to relieve that anger, also there are just a lot of low life mother fuckers out there that will try to turn a buck off dead family members.

My advise leave work at work and when you are off you are just a weight lifting normal guy.[/quote]

This isn’t work work. This is for a volunteer fire house. This is for fun… =0)[/quote]

Well Volunteer is still covered to an extent chances are even less for you in that aspect. Again dont fly solo and try to save the world.

NOW that being said, I am sorry I will sacrifice everything I have for the life of a child. I would go into burning house or car to save a child.

The rest of you old fuckers to bad.

25

[quote]DJHT wrote:
NOW that being said, I am sorry I will sacrifice everything I have for the life of a child. I would go into burning house or car to save a child.

The rest of you old fuckers to bad. [/quote]

what about your honorary white nephew that you’ve taken under your wing??

26

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:
NOW that being said, I am sorry I will sacrifice everything I have for the life of a child. I would go into burning house or car to save a child.

The rest of you old fuckers to bad. [/quote]

what about your honorary white nephew that you’ve taken under your wing??[/quote]

Only because of the stache, that and you are a veteren. You served for me I would save you.

27

[quote]DJHT wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:
NOW that being said, I am sorry I will sacrifice everything I have for the life of a child. I would go into burning house or car to save a child.

The rest of you old fuckers to bad. [/quote]

what about your honorary white nephew that you’ve taken under your wing??[/quote]

Only because of the stache, that and you are a veteren. You served for me I would save you. [/quote]

I dont exactly have the stache anymore… does that change things? if so i can grow back a precautionary one

28

Let’s put things in context here. I’m just a CPR certified trainer, no medical background properly speaking, although I do have an M.Sc in kinesiology. I’m 255 lbs, and chances are I’ll be nervous as hell in a situation where people are relying on me to save their lives.

Yes you might considering your size and technique. Also depends greatly on the patient, their size and state of health. A little old lady yes quite likely a rib or 2 will break. A 50 y/o man then not much chance no matter how hard you push.

I’m not saying breaking a rib/s, snapping off the rib from its cartilage attachement, etc, happens every time, but it does happen pretty often, enough to make one consider giving CPR if that means being sued later.

Again stay within your training and keep current on the latest skills which you obviously are if your attending a re-cert then you will be okay as others have already stated.

29

Regardless of a possibility to get sued, I would help.

I have high moral expectations of myself and maintaining them is more important than avoiding legal trouble.

This applies to protecting helpless people from unjustified violence as well.

30

Few things. When you perform CPR on a patient and you hear a cracking sound, that is not the ribs breaking per se. Everyone has cartilage which attaches the rib bones to the sternum. Most of the time you are breaking the cartilage, not the actual rib bones.

Now onto the legal stuff.

Most states do have the Good Samaritan laws in place but these do not protect you from a lawsuit. A few statutory provisions can provide some immunity from a lawsuit but these provisions are usually reserved for emergency medical care providers but these laws still do not protect against negligence or willfill misconduct.

Here is a story that is not CPR related but relevant to the discussion:

Note; this story was relayed to me by a friend so I am not sure of the exact details, the message remains the same however

A local orthopedic surgeon was driving home one day when he saw a bad accident on the side of the highway. He carried some tools in his car and decided to stop since EMS had not arrived yet. He found a young girl unresponsive who had life-threatening bleeding and she was trapped in the car and could not escape. Using some of his tools he amputated the leg on scene and was able to get her out of the car to provide the appropriate medical care effectively saving her life. Months later, she sued the doctor who “saved” her and won the case. The DR ended up having to shell out a ton of cash to the girl since she won the lawsuit.

So if you are a layperson with some basic knowledge of CPR, should you act on a person? That is a question only you can answer. If you screw up though and don’t follow the protocols “by the book”, their is a chance that a proficient lawyer can slap you with a lawsuit.

Basically they are going to ask, if a similarly trained person would have done the same thing in the same situation as you and if the answer is no, than good luck!

31

Read through this thread and my .02 are coming in now.

Breaking ribs- shit happens, if you break them you break them, you wont always do it but it happens. heres how the lawsuit goes, he broke my ribs, she had no pulse and was not breathing. lets be real here if its just a broken rib and they were in cardiac arrest you should be fine. if they die, not likely its due to the broken rib, but if youre trained someone may now challenge your technique etc. theres a threat to everything youre gonna do, make your choices then stick by them.

also if its is possible get everything recorded. if you make the 911 call record everything. (story time) i was in a 2 car mvc in november both cars total i got the fucking ticket. it was bullshit i got a ticket for not going proper speeds given the weather conditions. the kid with a permit at the age of 20 turned directly in front of me, they said i blew a red which i didnt and given how the cars collided it didnt make sense, well anyways i was on my way to work for a private ambulance company (i am an EMT-B currently in school to become a paramedic) so obviously after the accident i felt like i should at least make sure everyone was ok seeing as i was in uniform. no complaints no loc nothing. when i called 911 i reported everything, my training etc. etc. and my findings at the scene, its recorded. lo and behold the medics show up, and bam dude cant move his neck, are you fucking kidding me, even the cops were agreeing not a damn thing was wrong he was all running around until he saw an ambulance. well i then talked to the medics, told them my story, and they guy put it in his report that there were no intiial complaints. anyways what im getting at is given that situation i really couldnt not act due to being on the scene so i took every precaution to cover my ass.

now with the above since i was not on the clock, i would have been covered by the good samaritan act in illinois, theres lots if small print so to speak but i was not at that time working under an MD as DJ has recently stated.

Now onto the good samaritan act. Differs state by state wherever you live learn it. cant remember who but whoever is joining the VFD you should be covered at work, or when youre responding as part of that dept. at that time you will be working under an MD, with SOP’s and protocols i assume. but on your off time once again check your state laws regarding if you are covered or not.

32

^^ any dr who would conduct an infield amputation on his own time is all kinds of fucked. honestly i see where he may have felt it was necessary. But everything about that is so illegal i dont know what to say.

33

[quote]fighting_fires wrote:
^^ any dr who would conduct an infield amputation on his own time is all kinds of fucked. honestly i see where he may have felt it was necessary. But everything about that is so illegal i dont know what to say. [/quote]

I totally agree. He should have called 911 and let the fire-rescue perform an extrication using their equipment.

34

So far we’ve discussed people who act out of good will, and their potential liabilities.

What about seeing someone in trouble and NOT helping in ANY way? I mean to say, if you saw someone who was going to drown in the next 10 minutes due to exhaustion but you didn’t call the emergency services, nor did you jump in and help. Basically, if you were a lazy prick and just stood there and watched.

How does that work in the states?

35

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
So far we’ve discussed people who act out of good will, and their potential liabilities.

What about seeing someone in trouble and NOT helping in ANY way? I mean to say, if you saw someone who was going to drown in the next 10 minutes due to exhaustion but you didn’t call the emergency services, nor did you jump in and help. Basically, if you were a lazy prick and just stood there and watched.

How does that work in the states?[/quote]

popculturereference.jpg

36

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
So far we’ve discussed people who act out of good will, and their potential liabilities.

What about seeing someone in trouble and NOT helping in ANY way? I mean to say, if you saw someone who was going to drown in the next 10 minutes due to exhaustion but you didn’t call the emergency services, nor did you jump in and help. Basically, if you were a lazy prick and just stood there and watched.

How does that work in the states?[/quote]

Well if you are a medical professional on shift or if you identify yourself as such through clothing or verbal, than you have a duty to act.

As a layperson you are not required by law to act. That is a moral decision.

Check out this case with a similar situation.
http://classweb.gmu.edu/jkozlows/nemon.htm

37

[quote]Rhino Jockey wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
So far we’ve discussed people who act out of good will, and their potential liabilities.

What about seeing someone in trouble and NOT helping in ANY way? I mean to say, if you saw someone who was going to drown in the next 10 minutes due to exhaustion but you didn’t call the emergency services, nor did you jump in and help. Basically, if you were a lazy prick and just stood there and watched.

How does that work in the states?[/quote]

Well if you are a medical professional on shift or if you identify yourself as such through clothing or verbal, than you have a duty to act.

As a layperson you are not required by law to act. That is a moral decision.

Check out this case with a similar situation.
http://classweb.gmu.edu/jkozlows/nemon.htm[/quote]

Thanks. I’ll read through this now. I’m only up to scratch with english law, so thanks for this.

38

Good Samaritan law protects you from being sued.

39

[quote]bwbski wrote:
Good Samaritan law protects you from being sued.[/quote]

Did you read the thread or just putting in what you think cause you watch Law and Order or possible the old show ER?

40

[quote]Rhino Jockey wrote:

[quote]fighting_fires wrote:
^^ any dr who would conduct an infield amputation on his own time is all kinds of fucked. honestly i see where he may have felt it was necessary. But everything about that is so illegal i dont know what to say. [/quote]

I totally agree. He should have called 911 and let the fire-rescue perform an extrication using their equipment.[/quote]

Even if she would have died?