Give Me Your Best Argument, Liberal or Conservative

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Wait you want to tax them, and make them divulge their proprietorial secrets? [/quote]

Secrets? What are they hiding?

People who give up their money to these organizations have a right to know how their money is being spent.[/quote]

Well if they are being taxed, they now are a business and have proprietorial secrets in how they fund raise their money. They have to be extra-competitive because of the tax so I’d think they’d want to keep the ways of their methods secret.

If you go to your local Catholic Parish, you can usually pick up the parish bulletin and see how much money is collected every week, and who gets what unless it is a small enough parish that they don’t have a secretary with accounting abilities, then the parish usually doesn’t have enough money to really do anything with. The JW, they are a little different. The Catholic Church is a little bit more transparent in their charitable causes. K of C, publishes their insurance records every quarter.

42

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Wait you want to tax them, and make them divulge their proprietorial secrets? [/quote]

Secrets? What are they hiding?

People who give up their money to these organizations have a right to know how their money is being spent.[/quote]

Well if they are being taxed, they now are a business and have proprietorial secrets in how they fund raise their money. They have to be extra-competitive because of the tax so I’d think they’d want to keep the ways of their methods secret.

If you go to your local Catholic Parish, you can usually pick up the parish bulletin and see how much money is collected every week, and who gets what unless it is a small enough parish that they don’t have a secretary with accounting abilities, then the parish usually doesn’t have enough money to really do anything with. The JW, they are a little different. The Catholic Church is a little bit more transparent in their charitable causes. K of C, publishes their insurance records every quarter. [/quote]

I didn’t say tell everyone HOW they got the money, I said tell everyone WHERE they got it. I don’t care if the Bishop himself sucked off a Senator to get funding, I’m just saying tell us WHERE there money came from.

Savvy?

43

[quote]Makavali wrote:
I didn’t say tell everyone HOW they got the money, I said tell everyone WHERE they got it. I don’t care if the Bishop himself sucked off a Senator to get funding, I’m just saying tell us WHERE there money came from.

Savvy?[/quote]

Why though? A business doesn’t have to tell everyone how they got or spent their money. If we treat a church as a business then why should they have to release any details?

44

[quote]Chomskyian wrote:
The idea that anyone who works hard can become wealthy is a crock of shit. It’s impossible that the 42 million people on food stamps could all become millionares; there’s only so much money to go around. When so much wealth is concentrated at the top, mass poverty is inevitable at the bottom. Again, if we had a working democracy things would be different. Right now the wealthy run the country, so naturally it is run in their interests, not in the interest of the “people.”
[/quote]

  1. The unemployed do little productive work

  2. The reason so much wealth is concentrated at the top is because of debt and consumerism. People live outside of their means so they can buy the latest shit. This makes them beholden to the government or to a corporation for a job. Because of this wages can be kept low. Basically it is the government and corporations with the power.

Imagine if every person in the USA had enough money to provide for themselves completely for 6 months. Wage growth among the lower classes would sky rocket and money pocketed by the ultra rich would drop. Simply because the poor could demand higher wages because they have a better bargaining position.

If the poor changed their attitudes then within a generation we could easily have those 42 million people well off. Saying there is only so much money to go around is silly. It simply relies upon strong family and marriage ties and a solid work ethic to make it happen.

Consumerist culture + debt is destroying generations of hard work.

45

Ok sorry it took ME so long to respond. I wanted to have a little uninterrupted time to get a clear stream of thought.

#1 the government should be small and powerless against the people, but strong facing outwards, against other governments. I’m not sure of the exact setup, but many social programs need to be trimmed back and many eliminated all together. The problem I have with a government run program is that the money they take gets wasted and sucked off before it gets to who they are trying to help.

If they just left the money alone in the first place, more jobs would be available and less people would need the help. Also more people would be doing better financially, so they would chip in more of their personal wealth to help the truly needy in their communities.

A bureaucrat in Washington doesn’t know the difference between Sherry, a mother of two who is working two jobs trying to get by because her deadbeat boyfriend ran for the hills, and Sherry the crackhead who can’t stay employed because of her drug habit. The community can tell the difference and instead of just throwing money at each of them, they can provide help to both that best suits their needs. Maybe the community pulls together and provides some free daycare and a loan for education for the mother of two so she can raise her standard of living with a career and they have an intervention and provide the road to counseling for the crackhead.

Roads and bridges are generally done by states counties and towns, so reducing the size of the federal Govt isn’t going to make our roads fall apart. We can leave in a small budget for federally funded interstates and bridges/tunnels.

Income tax is gone. a consumption tax on non-essential items or items above a certain “luxury” point I could live with. I would really rather have some sort of a per ca-pita base tax. That way there wouldn’t be any real fluctuations in federal revenue. so each person has to pay $10 per year for a military fund tax, $10 per year for an infrastructure tax, etc… Whatever the people deem is a necessary role for the government, find out how much it costs to do it effectively and then divide that by the current population. Obviously allow for a slight budget surplus for hard times. It’s how they run a town budget, and should be how all government budgets are run.

I agree with others, the war on drugs is a classic case of not learning the lessons of the past, Prohibition didn’t work and neither is outlawing and criminalizing drugs. Lets show the world and ourselves that we can learn from our past and correct this error in ways.

I’ll probably have some more later.

V

46

[quote]phaethon wrote:

[quote]Chomskyian wrote:
The idea that anyone who works hard can become wealthy is a crock of shit. It’s impossible that the 42 million people on food stamps could all become millionares; there’s only so much money to go around. When so much wealth is concentrated at the top, mass poverty is inevitable at the bottom. Again, if we had a working democracy things would be different. Right now the wealthy run the country, so naturally it is run in their interests, not in the interest of the “people.”
[/quote]

  1. The unemployed do little productive work

  2. The reason so much wealth is concentrated at the top is because of debt and consumerism. People live outside of their means so they can buy the latest shit. This makes them beholden to the government or to a corporation for a job. Because of this wages can be kept low. Basically it is the government and corporations with the power.

Imagine if every person in the USA had enough money to provide for themselves completely for 6 months. Wage growth among the lower classes would sky rocket and money pocketed by the ultra rich would drop. Simply because the poor could demand higher wages because they have a better bargaining position.

If the poor changed their attitudes then within a generation we could easily have those 42 million people well off. Saying there is only so much money to go around is silly. It simply relies upon strong family and marriage ties and a solid work ethic to make it happen.

Consumerist culture + debt is destroying generations of hard work.[/quote]

I would also like to add that absolute numerical value of money is actually entirely meaningless. Referring specifically to:

If you have $100,000 and bread cost $2 a loaf–it did in some recent past!–than you are 50,000 loaves of bread rich. NOW, as we’ve seen, bread prices seem to always rise–thank you Federal Reserve! So, when bread is $4 a loaf, you are 25,000 loaves of bread rich OR 25,000 loaves of bread poorer than you were before. The bread is identical. The money is identical except that it’s value is now 2x less than before.

So, it has nothing to do with how many zero’s are in anyone’s bank statements. It has everything to do with what the money can buy. How much physical money to go around is irrelevant. It is all about production. The more goods in the economy, the lower the prices of that good because an equal number of dollars should be chasing an increased number of goods.

It is all about production or productivity to echo phaethon’s first point. The more people we have who do not produce or are not productive, the poorer they will get for sure but, the poorer we all get.

47

[quote]Chomskyian wrote:

The idea that anyone who works hard can become wealthy is a crock of shit. It’s impossible that the 42 million people on food stamps could all become millionares; there’s only so much money to go around. When so much wealth is concentrated at the top, mass poverty is inevitable at the bottom. [/quote]

48

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Ok, instead of the ad nauseum arguments about this little aspect of a topic or that, Give me a paragraph or two, or ten if you need it. Give me your basic argument of the major ideas you support and why. Taxes, Rights, Power, Wealth, Religion. Spin me a web that you would like to call home little spider.

I would like to institute one rule into this thread and I ask that you all abide. No one can discuss someones post, or parts of it, unless they themselves have posted thier basic argument. And Orion, please go into a little detail, one sentance or one word replies are weak.

I want to do this because I want to know what everyone else thinks. But I don’t want to learn that through heated arguments over topics. I want to know what YOU think your core beliefs are. There are no wrong answeres.

Thanks for playing!

V [/quote]

V, shouldn’t you have posted your own beliefs in or around the opening post? I just skimmed this, so maybe I missed your post.
[/quote]

Sorry, I have since posted some of my thoughts.

V

49

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

Well, at least we know they are not teaching common sense in Norway. [/quote]

instead of acting like an ass, maybe you could back your statement up with some arguments.

50

Figured I’d supply some meat to the bones of the principle I noted above:

  1. Low taxes, low spending, and pay-as-you-go principles (except in dire emergencies). If it is important enough to be passed into law, it’s important enough for this generation to pay for the benefits of it.

  2. Legislate “smalless” for financial institutions so that there is no such thing as “too big too fail” - i.e., break up the big banks.

  3. Just say no to universal health care - bad program, too expensive, impractical, completely perverse set of incentives for people to take responsibility for their own health. Allow health insurers to compete across state lines, enact tort reform, disconnect health insurance from employment (and make it portable). After addressing costs, see who is left over that can’t get coverage, and make available some kind of public assistance (subsidies, etc.).

  4. Good government: neutral redistricting policy, term limits, one-bill-one-topic principles, ban on earmarking, full disclosures on political donations.

  5. Reconsider free trade with countries that don’t share our values - i.e., bilateral traed agreements, etc. instead of a global “free trade” regime. Don’t export pollution and bad labor practices (within practical limits, create a “floor”) via free trade in the name of more “cheap crap”. Stop allowing access to our markets (a privilege, not a right) to be used as a means for foreign countries with less-than-friendly intentions to build their wealth (and military might) on our nickel.

  6. All social policies should have one overarching aim: support the traditional family structure and local communities.

  7. Reduce dependence on foreign nations generally: reduce borrowing from them, reduce military presence in them, reduce foreign aid to them. Not completely - isolationism is a fool’s errand. But instead, reclaim independence - in addition to liberty, we fought a reovlution for our independence; get back to that concept.

  8. On that note, revitalize NATO (and our relationships within it) and de-emphasize the UN.

Maybe more later, as time permits.

51

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

  • Give Chris Christie an award! Clone him.

[/quote]

J
Aside from going after the teacher’s unions and slashing state aid for education funding to school districts, he hasn’t really done anything of note per se in the state.

[/quote]

That’s enough for me. I also like his style, he does not take ANY BS and calls the BS-er out every time.

52

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

  • Give Chris Christie an award! Clone him.

[/quote]

J
Aside from going after the teacher’s unions and slashing state aid for education funding to school districts, he hasn’t really done anything of note per se in the state.

[/quote]

That’s enough for me. I also like his style, he does not take ANY BS and calls the BS-er out every time.
[/quote]

I liked one of two. Going after the teachers union was a good thing. Slashing the education funding, not so much.

But I agree that I like his style. A personality like his has been long overdue in this state for a long time.

53

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Use your brain. See what works.
Believe in cause and effect. That will make a liberal.

For instance. Bush’s tax cuts bankrupted the US. Clintons economic policy created a surplus and politicians were planning on investing that in infrastructure and education. Thank God Bush came along and took care of that problem.[/quote]

Congress controls spending.

During the first six Bush the Bush years the Republicans spent too much and the Democrats spent even more wildly. I suspect if The US was not involved in the war then there would have been more fiscal soundness during the Bush years.

During the Clinton years the budget wasn’t balanced until the Republicans took control.

54

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

  • Give Chris Christie an award! Clone him.

[/quote]

J
Aside from going after the teacher’s unions and slashing state aid for education funding to school districts, he hasn’t really done anything of note per se in the state.

[/quote]

That’s enough for me. I also like his style, he does not take ANY BS and calls the BS-er out every time.
[/quote]

I liked one of two. Going after the teachers union was a good thing. Slashing the education funding, not so much.

But I agree that I like his style. A personality like his has been long overdue in this state for a long time.[/quote]

Education is over funded in most states. It is unbelievable how school districts squander money.

55

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
and pay-as-you-go principles[/quote]

When you say this, is this a system to avoid having to pay all your taxes in one giant bundle at the end of the fiscal year? I would have thought there would already be a system to pay income tax on a per weekly/fortnightly/monthly basis.

56

[quote]Makavali wrote:

When you say this, is this a system to avoid having to pay all your taxes in one giant bundle at the end of the fiscal year? I would have thought there would already be a system to pay income tax on a per weekly/fortnightly/monthly basis.[/quote]

No, this is the principle that government expenditures must be funded on a “pay as you go” system, i.e., you must balance the budget and cannot “fund” government expenditures with borrowing.

Example: Congress passes a bill establishing a program that costs $1 billion in fiscal year 2011. Therefore, Congress must come up with the $1 billion [b]in 2011[/b], either by cutting spending somewhere else and using that money or raising taxes to cover the balance.

57

my 2c.
“conservative”:

  • mandatory drug testing for welfare recipients
  • “take it or leave it” type job placement program for ppl who collect welfare for more than 6 month
  • make English language an official language
  • discontinue the practice of minority quotas in universities and HR policies

“democrat”:

  • extra tax/fine/tariff/whatever for companies that outsource jobs
58

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

When you say this, is this a system to avoid having to pay all your taxes in one giant bundle at the end of the fiscal year? I would have thought there would already be a system to pay income tax on a per weekly/fortnightly/monthly basis.[/quote]

No, this is the principle that government expenditures must be funded on a “pay as you go” system, i.e., you must balance the budget and cannot “fund” government expenditures with borrowing.

Example: Congress passes a bill establishing a program that costs $1 billion in fiscal year 2011. Therefore, Congress must come up with the $1 billion [b]in 2011[/b], either by cutting spending somewhere else and using that money or raising taxes to cover the balance.
[/quote]

Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

59

Meant to add this:

  1. End the Fed’s legislative mandate to pursue full employment. The Fed should be in charge of managing currency and sound credit, not trying to generate economic results in the marketplace with cheap money. Get the Fed out of the bubble business.

  2. Diversify our energy portfolio with huge investments in alternative energy. Oil and gas aren’t going anywhere, and we shouldn’t pretend like they are. We should, however, follow the first rule of finance and not have our energy assets overweighted in one (or two) sources, particularly sources subject to political chicanery outside of the US.

  3. Also, I am open to the idea of a hybrid approach to primary taxation via an energy tax/income tax, where we introduce an energy tax and lower the income tax accordingly. This diversifies the tax base, shifts revenue raising to something consumption-oriented, helps tie costs with externalities and encourages conservation and alternative resource development. An energy tax, however, would be compleltely contingent on a reduction in income taxes.

  4. Preserve Social Security by making it look more like its original version - not a general pension program for retirees.

60

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

  • Democrats lost their message of tolerance and middle class representatives.
  • Illegals are a big problem and needs to be stamped out.
  • Borders should now be closed for a period of time to newcomers.
  • Repeal HC. Instead…Subsidize and expand Medicaid for the “less fortunate” w/ Tort Reform.
  • We need to lower tax rates to encourage growth
  • Eliminate special interest (union/corps) campaign donations.
  • Tax the hell out of Chinese made products.
  • Flat tax rates.
  • Term Limits for Congress.
  • 1 bill = 1 law… and nothing more, nothing less…post to internet for community.
  • Get out of Afganistan…we no longer have a clear mission.
  • Enforce voters rights laws for all citizens.
  • Stop providing federal and state subsidies to ILLEGALS!
  • Require work for welfare.
  • MAKE OUR TEENAGERS learn a work ethic.
  • Racial profiling is OK when it comes to security and border control.
  • Give Chris Christie an award! Clone him.
  • Reclassify Islam from a religion to a political and theological movement.
  • Reclassify Politically Correct to “politically Muzzled speech”.

Not arguments, but points.[/quote]
Amen brother! I couldn’t have put anymore simple than that. Simple answers to a goverment that made life way too complex.