Give Me Your Best Argument, Liberal or Conservative

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Use your brain. See what works.
Believe in cause and effect. That will make a liberal.

For instance. Bush’s tax cuts bankrupted the US. Clintons economic policy created a surplus and politicians were planning on investing that in infrastructure and education. Thank God Bush came along and took care of that problem.[/quote]

Oh god not the Clinton balanced the budget lie again. You do not know what you are talking about. Clinton’s economic policy never came close to creating a surplus nor a balanced budget. All they did was change accounting rules so that the government could count the social security payroll tax as income. But it is not income that can be spent, it is supposed to be a trust fund, a trust fund that eventually gives the money back to the people it was taken from.

It was Clinton whose campaign took money from the Chinese, then returned the favor by granting them permanent most favored nation trading status. That move has decimated America’s manufacturing base and turned the US into a debtor nation.[/quote]

Come on brother, the rules are easy, is it that tempting to argue? All you have to do is state your overall position on some basic things and then we can all have at eachother. I kinda wanted to get everyones first “BASIC” set of ideas without it being through the lens of them coming at another persons position. There are literally thousands of threads in PWI where this rule does not apply, I am just looking for it in this one little thread.

V

[quote]storey420 wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Ok, instead of the ad nauseum arguments about this little aspect of a topic or that, Give me a paragraph or two, or ten if you need it. Give me your basic argument of the major ideas you support and why. Taxes, Rights, Power, Wealth, Religion. Spin me a web that you would like to call home little spider.

I would like to institute one rule into this thread and I ask that you all abide. No one can discuss someones post, or parts of it, unless they themselves have posted thier basic argument. And Orion, please go into a little detail, one sentance or one word replies are weak.

I want to do this because I want to know what everyone else thinks. But I don’t want to learn that through heated arguments over topics. I want to know what YOU think your core beliefs are. There are no wrong answeres.

Thanks for playing!

V [/quote]

Can we add another rule if you don’t live in the U.S. don’t assume you know anything that goes on here. Cuz you probably don’t, you just see what someone want you too.

I believe in individual liberty and freedom. That we should all be responsible for and take accountability for our own actions.

I think instead of the government taxing to provide services, we should pay for the services we use. Thee are only a few common good services that apply across the board, those should be the only things needed to budget.

Instead of relying on handouts from the government we should be responsible, plan ahead and let the community take care of itself.

The government should not provide support for medical needs, should not send tax money to other countries, should not subsidize housing, cars, cell phones, clothes, food , anything. These are things has been done without government in a more efficient manner.

I believe the country needs to go back to producing goods again. Farming and manufacturing. We have nothing of value. We need to be allowed to fail so we learn to innovate, to perform better.

And if we must have government run entitlements, paying into them should be voluntary. No one should be forced to pay for something for someone else, that is not available to them.

I think school’s have absolutely no right to tax anyone. Parent’s should pay for their children’s education. If they can’t they bust their ass to find the support. Don’t have children unless you can afford them.

There should be no such thing as annual property tax or eminant domain. If you own property you own it, this is a democratic republic, not a feudal system. If a county or borough chosses to provide service everyone with residence in said area should be charged equally fo acces to said service.

I believe we need to go back to a justice system where judges don’t make up laws. Where victims have a right to protect themselves, families and property and criminals lose their rights. prison is expensive, it shouldn’t be, it should teach them a lesson.

on the topic of taxes I reference the 5th ammendmant, “nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.” you cannot take something (money) without just compensation, and well giving anything to someone else is not.

and I believe there should be an increased import tarrif on all imported goods and serives. don’t make it more adventageous to send jobs elsewhere.

helping others should be voluntary.
[/quote]

Not to be lazy but a majority of these thoughts I am down with. I don’t agree that simply raising tariffs is that easy of an answer or achieves the desired effect.
To what he wrote I would add:

Don’t give a shit about gays getting married. Let’s actually live the Bill of Rights for once in this nation’s history and truly let all men be created equal. May not agree with the lifestyle personally but it should be your right to do what you want.

On that token, legalize all drugs. War on drugs= massive failure and always will be.

No welfare state, if you do want welfare then if I pay for it (via taxes) I get to determine what you eat and do (yes you will work).

Income tax was a shady voting situation and should be repealed, period. I will give the government my money via investments, bonds, etc.[/quote]

I agree, and now that I read what I posted, wow someone forgot to give me my ritalin today.

And I agree with the concept of legalized drugs. not in the sense that I want to get messed up all the time, but who are you to tell me what is better for me. Hell I know I would have a lot less joint problems if hGH and some othere things could be gotten leaglly.

Also the idea of homosexuality. I do agree. I don’t agree with the lifestyle but it is your choice. Just understand it is my choice to raise my kids with my values, select my employees and so on.

So on that not do away with the whole concept of equal opportunity employment, because it does just the opposite and plays to special interest group and minorities. A business has the right to operate as it choses, if you don’t like it leave.

on a side note after some further conversation with a couple QA officers where I amworking, I tend to agree with deregulating for pharma, not completely, but to the extent it is now is ludacris. aside from the R&D the reason treatments are so expensive.

[quote]Vegita wrote:
^ you last two posters didn’t follow the rules. I Specifically asked you not to comment on someones post unless you had laid out your thoughts first. Or at least in the same post. So while you may think his ideas make him an imbicile, your lack of following simple and easy rules make you stupid or assholes or both. Please edit your posts to include your positions so I may edit this post into I love waffles and we can get this thread back on track.

V[/quote]

Relax. I was calling wreckless on his usual illogic and within my post would be my first and foremost life philosophy…relentlessly seek to discover the truth as best you can and be wary of those who are purposefully trying to manipulate and deceive you. That is truly thinking for yourself. If we all did that as citizens, we wouldn’t be facing our current situation.

Here are a few others:

-Use the military properly…smash those who threaten or harm us into th ground without mercy and the return home to fortress America. As a government, have the courage toname enemies and treat them accordingly. While you are at it, after their priorities and powers have been reset to the proper place, treat the police the same and accept that there are a select number of people who refuse to respect civility and need to be dealt with.
-The rights of the individual trump the desires of the state in most things.
-The moral uses of government are the maintenance of a military for defense, the managing of infrastructure, the protection of borders, the establishment of currency, the enfircement of contracts and the protection of domestic security and of a civil society. That’s it. Everything else is privatized…possibly even education to a large extent.
-Welfare is cut to maybe 10% or less of it’s current state and even that has obligations like work in most cases.
-Flat tax
-All gun laws abolished except barring convicted violent felons. The military and police should take a large role in providing voluntary training and support for civilian shooters.
-Tariffs on Chinese goods
-2 term limit for all politicians
-Massive effort to secure the border and the deportation of every illegal alien when they are found.
-Complete turn around in respect for private property rights…too much to mention here.
-Invalidate most of the federal and state criminal codes and return them to the limited mala in se laws that all societies throughout history have recognized.

Sure I’m forgetting a lot …

[quote]JD430 wrote:

[quote]Vegita wrote:
^ you last two posters didn’t follow the rules. I Specifically asked you not to comment on someones post unless you had laid out your thoughts first. Or at least in the same post. So while you may think his ideas make him an imbicile, your lack of following simple and easy rules make you stupid or assholes or both. Please edit your posts to include your positions so I may edit this post into I love waffles and we can get this thread back on track.

V[/quote]

Relax. I was calling wreckless on his usual illogic and within my post would be my first and foremost life philosophy…relentlessly seek to discover the truth as best you can and be wary of those who are purposefully trying to manipulate and deceive you. That is truly thinking for yourself. If we all did that as citizens, we wouldn’t be facing our current situation.

Here are a few others:

-Use the military properly…smash those who threaten or harm us into th ground without mercy and the return home to fortress America. As a government, have the courage toname enemies and treat them accordingly. While you are at it, after their priorities and powers have been reset to the proper place, treat the police the same and accept that there are a select number of people who refuse to respect civility and need to be dealt with.
-The rights of the individual trump the desires of the state in most things.
-The moral uses of government are the maintenance of a military for defense, the managing of infrastructure, the protection of borders, the establishment of currency, the enfircement of contracts and the protection of domestic security and of a civil society. That’s it. Everything else is privatized…possibly even education to a large extent.
-Welfare is cut to maybe 10% or less of it’s current state and even that has obligations like work in most cases.
-Flat tax
-All gun laws abolished except barring convicted violent felons. The military and police should take a large role in providing voluntary training and support for civilian shooters.
-Tariffs on Chinese goods
-2 term limit for all politicians
-Massive effort to secure the border and the deportation of every illegal alien when they are found.
-Complete turn around in respect for private property rights…too much to mention here.
-Invalidate most of the federal and state criminal codes and return them to the limited mala in se laws that all societies throughout history have recognized.

Sure I’m forgetting a lot …[/quote]

Thanks, I’m very relaxed. I’m glad you have atoned and followed the thread format ;). We will see if wrecked can find it within himself to do the same. That will say a lot about who he is, as you and TB have shown you are men of integrity by adhering to my somewhat arbitrary rules.

V

Simple, low taxes, painfully low for the lefty’s. Reduce the size and scope of government. For example get rid of the department of education and many others as well. Return the power to the states where our founders wanted it.

If we did the above we wouldn’t need any special tax incentives for small business. Nor would we need any “economic stimulus.” We would be on the road to recovery quickly.

I believe that every person is valuable, every person owns his or her life, and every person should have a choice as to the direction of his or her life. Everything else comes from that. Most of my political beliefs are about economic and personal liberties.

My main political issues these days:

  1. Unsustainable fiscal practices. We can’t spend this much forever; universal health care is impractical; really bad things could happen if we don’t take some precautions now. We need entitlement reform. We need the government to stop propping up industries that ought to shrink.

  2. Civil liberties – surveillance, right to a trial, miscarriages of justice, etc.

  3. The drug war. I’ve never done drugs and I’m not interested in trying – it’s not about me. There’s just too much violence and incarceration in this country and the human cost is unacceptable.

  4. Gay marriage is a civil right.

Those are the no-brainers, for me. Other things are equally important but I can’t be sure what the right thing to do is – how to fix education, for instance.

First and foremost I believe that having a lot of power over people you don’t know, and have little in common with, leads to bad decisions. At the same time having a level of power is empowering and every citizen should be powerful.

As such I believe in the following:

  • Limited and decentralized government.
    If we have a strong central government we have people in positions of power over many people they have nothing in common with. These people will be happy to “screw” people they don’t associate their identity with. E.g. For the most part the current left couldn’t give a damn about the needs of members of the tea party.

  • Strong and active national identity
    A strong national identity means everyone has many things in common with everyone else. This creates a sense of community. A man might have no trouble robbing a random stranger but will have serious problems with robbing his brother/family/church members/neighbor/xbox live friend etc.

It also builds trust and provides the citizens with an organized power base. This is a base necessity for a democracy/republic to run well.

  • Strong national identity is only upheld when immigration controls are strict. Hence I support strict immigration controls. You can only become an American citizen if you are loyal to American people and America.

  • Strong regulations to protect the individuals from large corporations.
    There is no inherent right to incorporate and gain limited liability, massive access to funds, etc. We provide corporations with this ability ONLY because it serves the people best.

Corporations are often as bad as governments in restricting peoples freedom.

Now I am actually a supporter of less regulation and simpler regulation. Current regulations are complex, costly, and ineffective. What we need is strong but simple regulation. An example is: No advertising targeting children under the age of 14. None. Fucking 0. You might find this a strong stance but advertising has a very strong effect on young minds.

  • That being fiscally and socially conservative is extremely important.
    Social and fiscal conservativeness give the individual control over their lives. Individuals must have a decent level of power or they will be taken advantage of. You have very little power if you are in mountains of debt. I have friends earning 10% less than me but doing twice the work. Simply because I have the ability to quit my job, and survive just fine for months without any assistance. They do not. They need their job and this leaves them with much less power.

Likewise being addicted to drugs/alcohol/etc warps the mind and leads to poor decisions and lack of control. I know. I have been there. This again makes people weak and easy prey for the powerful.

As such I believe everyone should be taught to have enough cash in an emergency fund to cover 6 months worth of living costs. And people who don’t should be treated as idiots/douches. If you own a 30k car but have no emergency fund you are a giant douche and people should treat you as such.

  • Lower taxes for American companies employing Americans.
    These companies have higher regulatory costs and provide a greater benefit to Americans. Hence they should be given lower taxes.

I also believe that sometimes a centralized system works better than a free market. In some cases it is simply more efficient and less prone to abuse.

A simple example is the military. Another is police. Another is firemen. Roads.

Another is hospital care. Not all healthcare but hospital care. A free market based hospital system isn’t optimal. In an emergency you want to go to the nearest hospital. You are rarely in a position where you can shop around for the best deal. As such hospitals can charge as they please. Insurers try and place pressure on them but in the end it doesn’t seem to work well.

Now I do think that an insurance based model gives people more options to choose from. However, the current system is broken. I propose public hospitals and private doctors.

Education on the other hand doesn’t really fall onto that list. All the equipment required to educate people is easily supplied by the free market.

And some random thoughts:

  • Prison should be safe, and at the same time prisoners should have only the bare necessities. The violence in prison is retarded and counter productive. You have people go in for minor crimes and come out scarred heartless thugs.

  • Drugs should be legalised but taxed and discouraged (with say 10% of the money raised through taxes going on advertising campaigns against the drugs).

  • On Education: It should be based upon interest free loans (but with an inflation component), repayable only upon earnings above a certain amount.
    Education is extremely important. The educated contribute a lot to society. On the other hand making it free would place the burden onto all taxpayers instead of onto those who directly benefit.

  • On Technology: Most IP/copyright laws are ridiculous. Bin them.

  • The military: Cut military budget by 40-50% and bring the troops home from all theaters. Then put the savings into alternative fuel source research (i.e. alternatives to oil) and place the troops on the US-Mexico border.

The logic behind this is I don’t think it is good for the middle east to have our nuts in a vice. They currently do because the US is heavily dependent on oil.

  • On welfare: If people were fiscally conservative and had emergency funds then welfare would be a minor ticket item. Hence we should be socially encouraging people to be fiscally conservative.

Until attitudes change though we cannot morally touch welfare. Community groups are not strong enough to take the burden from the government. And simply removing the benefits without giving people real alternatives will mean revolution, or at best a large poverty stricken underclass. I don’t want that for the US.

I grew up in a poor area and yet 60%+ students at my school had saved enough for a car by the end of school. Now they all pissed $20-30k on a car, and many are now on welfare. Likewise plenty of people in the ghetto have decent vehicles. So it is a social attitude we need to change. My yearly spending is only $16k and I go out every weekend. If they kept that money as an emergency fund we would not have the welfare problem we have today.

  • I hate libertarians as much as I hate the far left. They are both causing major damage to this country.

These are just a few thoughts.

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
4. Gay marriage is a civil right.
[/quote]

See I don’t get this. How is it a civil right to force me to recognize that you want to spend the rest of your life with somebody of the same sex?

State sanctioned straight marriage is not a civil right either. However, I would argue that society should accept state sanctioned marriage.

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Ok, instead of the ad nauseum arguments about this little aspect of a topic or that, Give me a paragraph or two, or ten if you need it. Give me your basic argument of the major ideas you support and why. Taxes, Rights, Power, Wealth, Religion. Spin me a web that you would like to call home little spider.

I would like to institute one rule into this thread and I ask that you all abide. No one can discuss someones post, or parts of it, unless they themselves have posted thier basic argument. And Orion, please go into a little detail, one sentance or one word replies are weak.

I want to do this because I want to know what everyone else thinks. But I don’t want to learn that through heated arguments over topics. I want to know what YOU think your core beliefs are. There are no wrong answeres.

Thanks for playing!

V [/quote]

V, shouldn’t you have posted your own beliefs in or around the opening post? I just skimmed this, so maybe I missed your post.

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
Gay marriage is a civil right.[/quote]

That’s no more a civil right than polygamy, incest or any other odd sexual relationship. Sorry if I offended all of the “everything is cool as long as it doesn’t effect me (today)” crowd.

:slight_smile:

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Give me your basic argument of the major ideas you support and why. Taxes, Rights, Power, Wealth, Religion. Spin me a web that you would like to call home little spider.

V [/quote]

Thunderbot said it best.

However, basically I consider how policies and values intertact to provide–or hinder–prosperity into perpetuity. That’s where the traditional family comes in. If a nation is no longer friendly to this unit, even challenging it, you don’t have to debate taxes or spending anymore. You’re getting a graying citizenry, too many of the too few children citizens do have will be near feral, and an entrenched welfare state. The debate is over.

I am going to answer this in two sections, one about my principles and one about realistic policy I wants to be implemented in my country today.

section 1. principles.

  1. all humans are equal and therefor should the society be egalitarian.

  2. the society should be organized in a way that enables everyone of its members to have as much indipendence that are possible within the framework of a egalitarian society.

  3. all decisions regarding individual matters should be taken by the individual it concerns.

  4. all decisions regarding collective matters should be taken by the individuals that constitutes the collective it concerns.

  5. life is sacred ( not because its gods law or natural law, but because its wise to have it as a principle if you want to have a humanitarian society ).

section 2. policy in norway today.

  1. separet curch and state.

  2. end the monarchy, but dont replace the king with a president. just keep the primeminister and the president of the parliament as the higest ranks of the society.

  3. send the norwegian troops home from afganistan.

  4. out of nato, norway should be a neutral country who doesnt participate in war outside its borders. the norwegian armys only objective should be to protect norways borders and people.

  5. end commercial production and sale of weapons, military equipment etc in norway. the state should produce the military equipment the defending army needs, but no more.

  6. I want to remove saletaxes on food.

  7. I want a more progressive tax system with no loop holes.

  8. I want to maintain the welfare state and improve it.

  9. the state should be an active actour in the norwegian market.

  10. I want to keep norway out of the marcedliberalist project called eu.

  11. I want the state to keep supporting the farmers because I think it is importent that we have a large production of grains, meat, milk and eggs.

  12. I want the state to support workersowned workplaces.

there are alot more I can pump out of will regarding policy, but I dont want this post to become even longer then it is.

ps. sorry in advance if some of the words are misspelled.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

  • Give Chris Christie an award! Clone him.

[/quote]

Just one point here- Christie is not nearly the conservative you people think he is. He is conservative for New Jersey, but in most of your flyover states, you guys would picture him trapped in an lake of ice with horns and wings, just like you do for Obama.

Aside from going after the teacher’s unions and slashing state aid for education funding to school districts, he hasn’t really done anything of note per se in the state. And property taxes have gone up exponentially directly because of him.

I’m one of his supporters- and I think this. His detractors have lots of ammunition.

  • Throw out the War on Drugs, allow hospitals the right to refuse to treat patients who have overdosed on recreational drugs.

  • Legalize Pot, sell it, tax it. Allow production of Hemp based products.

  • Keep universal health care, limit it to cover/subsidize the most basic of medical needs and chronic conditions. Don’t hand out free medication, subsidize it for those earning under a specific threshold so that the poor can still afford it.

  • Tax cuts across the board, not just for the rich.

  • Keep food stamps for those on welfare. I don’t care how demeaning it comes across, people who abuse the system are the ones who should be blamed. Implement a system where utilities and rent can also be paid directly by the government instead of giving welfare money to people and expecting that every single one will pay responsibly. Again, blame the people who abuse the system.

  • Remove sales tax on whole food products like vegetables and fresh unprocessed meat. Also remove it for things like dairy products (fresh milk, cheese etc).

  • No more marriage on a government level, provide civil unions for couples (2 people over the age of consent) and leave it at that. If you want to enter a religious marriage, talk to your local church.

  • Remove references to God from the public sector. It’s fine for individuals to have mention of God, it’s not fine to have references to the Christian (or any) Bible in front of courts that serve a multi-religious country.

  • Cut prisons down to the bare necessities. It is a punishment. You get what’s required to live and nothing more. No TV, no radio, no cigarettes - you get a bed, food and daily access to sunlight.

  • Allow abortion. Allow Doctors to not offer abortion.

  • Interest free loans for education. Trim X% off wages when earning over $X0,000 a year.

  • Remove the idea that religious organizations don’t have to pay taxes, this is for any and all religions.

  • Full disclosure for charities, non-profit organizations, religious organizations etc. for all funding, and how it’s being spent. Not to the government, disclosure to everyone. These are the places that should have NOTHING to hide.

I believe that the Catholic Church is truth in all her dogmas and teachings. And, all coercive government is corrupt, therefore anarchy should spread across the land.

Because folks are blind in their hatred for His Church, I also point out that I support the intellectual pursuit for all people who wish to and are capable of pursuing that endeavor. Another side note, that basic education should start with children learning to be virtuous (cardinal, not religious as it is everyone’s free will to be in the Church). After that being taught elementary logic.

Pretty much explains it, the statements are not shallow, but they do explain how I picture the world.

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
Gay marriage is a civil right.
[/quote]

Gay marriage is about as much as a right as being popular. It is a societal recognition of two people’s love for one another. Which means that in fact the only thing that is being withheld is society not recognizing gay people’s love. But, I still have sympathy for gay people and their struggles, just not to get married.

[quote]Makavali wrote:

  • Throw out the War on Drugs, allow hospitals the right to refuse to treat patients who have overdosed on recreational drugs.

  • Legalize Pot, sell it, tax it. Allow production of Hemp based products.

  • Keep universal health care, limit it to cover/subsidize the most basic of medical needs and chronic conditions. Don’t hand out free medication, subsidize it for those earning under a specific threshold so that the poor can still afford it.

  • Tax cuts across the board, not just for the rich.

  • Keep food stamps for those on welfare. I don’t care how demeaning it comes across, people who abuse the system are the ones who should be blamed. Implement a system where utilities and rent can also be paid directly by the government instead of giving welfare money to people and expecting that every single one will pay responsibly. Again, blame the people who abuse the system.

  • Remove sales tax on whole food products like vegetables and fresh unprocessed meat. Also remove it for things like dairy products (fresh milk, cheese etc).

  • No more marriage on a government level, provide civil unions for couples (2 people over the age of consent) and leave it at that. If you want to enter a religious marriage, talk to your local church.
    [/quote]

Why have civil unions at all, I never understood that personally.

Those references come from the judge, since the judge basically rents his courtroom he can do as he wishes. I know people hate for people to express themselves, especially when it comes to religion. But man-up.

Another subject another time.

Doctors aren’t forced to offer abortions. Allowing abortions is still tantamount to killing.

Horrible idea, as an example the Catholic Church uses her money for charity. All taxes will do is take away from the poor and needy, which is exactly what “taxes” are for. And, if non-profits make a profit for three years in a row, they lose their non-profit. There is already a system to make sure that religious and other non-profits aren’t in fact making a profit.

[quote]

  • Full disclosure for charities, non-profit organizations, religious organizations etc. for all funding, and how it’s being spent. Not to the government, disclosure to everyone. These are the places that should have NOTHING to hide.[/quote]

Wait you want to tax them, and make them divulge their proprietorial secrets?

[quote]florelius wrote:
I am going to answer this in two sections, one about my principles and one about realistic policy I wants to be implemented in my country today.

section 1. principles.

  1. all humans are equal and therefor should the society be egalitarian.

  2. the society should be organized in a way that enables everyone of its members to have as much indipendence that are possible within the framework of a egalitarian society.

  3. all decisions regarding individual matters should be taken by the individual it concerns.

  4. all decisions regarding collective matters should be taken by the individuals that constitutes the collective it concerns.

  5. life is sacred ( not because its gods law or natural law, but because its wise to have it as a principle if you want to have a humanitarian society ).

section 2. policy in norway today.

  1. separet curch and state.

  2. end the monarchy, but dont replace the king with a president. just keep the primeminister and the president of the parliament as the higest ranks of the society.

  3. send the norwegian troops home from afganistan.

  4. out of nato, norway should be a neutral country who doesnt participate in war outside its borders. the norwegian armys only objective should be to protect norways borders and people.

  5. end commercial production and sale of weapons, military equipment etc in norway. the state should produce the military equipment the defending army needs, but no more.

  6. I want to remove saletaxes on food.

  7. I want a more progressive tax system with no loop holes.

  8. I want to maintain the welfare state and improve it.

  9. the state should be an active actour in the norwegian market.

  10. I want to keep norway out of the marcedliberalist project called eu.

  11. I want the state to keep supporting the farmers because I think it is importent that we have a large production of grains, meat, milk and eggs.

  12. I want the state to support workersowned workplaces.

there are alot more I can pump out of will regarding policy, but I dont want this post to become even longer then it is.

ps. sorry in advance if some of the words are misspelled.

[/quote]

Well, at least we know they are not teaching common sense in Norway.

You want 5, and 6, but want 8, 9, 11, 12, 2, 3.

I’m a big liberal; I’m not talking Juan Williams or Obama liberal, I’m talking about actually being liberal. I believe health care, food, and education should be available to the whole of the population at no cost. I don’t propose we pass legistlation that makes this happen tomorrow, but rather it should be a goal that we as a country work toward. With modern technology these are achievable circumstances.

I believe that the state should play a large role in the economy, as does today and has thoughout our country’s history. I also believe, in theory, that aside from a few exceptions (someone’s house), property should not be privately owned.

Taxes
Our current tax system is complete shit, largely due to its complexity. It is constructed in a way that allows for very rich people and corporations to take advantage of it in ways that most of the population couldn’t even begin to understand. Working within our system, we should have a few more tax brackets (something like $1M, $5M, and $25M) so that people that make 300k aren’t taxed like they are rich.

I think we would best be served by a steeply progressive cosumption tax, which would discourage excessive consumption. For example consumption beyond a reasonable amount (say $200k) should be where taxes kick in. Then make brackets based on the following consumption:

0 - 200k: 0%
201k - 500k: 25%
501k - 1M: 35%
1M - 5M: 45%
5M - 25M: 60%
25M+: 80%

(these numbers are just an example, I have no idea what the practical numbers would be as this is a radically different system than we have)

The idea is that people shouldn’t be discouraged from earning money, they should be discouraged from buying $100 million yachts (excessive consumption). If anyone wants a longer explanation I can give one, but pretty much relative wealth is preserved while absolute wealth is curbed slightly. Meaning the richest guy on the block is still the richest guy on the block, but his yacht might only be $75M rather than $100M.

I also agree with certain small taxes/credits in order to encourage/discourage particular items; like taxing cigarettes or giving a tax credit for solar panels.

Rights
People should have the right to do whatever they want as long as it doesn’t infringe on others. This one is complicated though because while most people can agree we need things like “freedom and liberty,” most people have very different ideas about what “freedom and liberty” mean. My right to free speech doesn’t infringe upon yours, my right to property does though because if I own something then no one else can.

Power
Power to the people. Seriously though, in this country power is extremely concentrated at the top today. Most aren’t aware or just don’t like to admit it, but there is really a “ruling class” that exists in this country. It isn’t like some Alex Jones-type conspiracy, but rather there is a semi-cohesive group consisting mostly of the wealthy and business class that run the country in their own interests. This “ruling class” is actually very aware that the “people” have virtually no control over how the country is run and they like it that way.

I think we need a system that actually allows the public to influence how the state is run. I actually think if we lived in a working democracy, people might not be so pessimistic about the government.

Wealth
I think it’s a shame that in the wealthiest country on the planet we have so much poverty. We shouldn’t have a country full of empty homes and homeless at the same time; we should be ashamed that in 21st century America there are people that can’t feed their children.

The idea that anyone who works hard can become wealthy is a crock of shit. It’s impossible that the 42 million people on food stamps could all become millionares; there’s only so much money to go around. When so much wealth is concentrated at the top, mass poverty is inevitable at the bottom. Again, if we had a working democracy things would be different. Right now the wealthy run the country, so naturally it is run in their interests, not in the interest of the “people.”

We need a more equally wealthy society. I’m not saying that we eliminate money or that everyone should live under exactly equal circumstances. Some inequality is inevitable, but the level that we have today is destructive to society.

Religion

To each his own. People interpret the world around them in different ways, no one should assume they’ve got all the answers to anyone else’s life. Some people believe in God, some Allah, and some Zeus. I think Sigmund Freud was on to something in Civilization and Its Discontents when he said that often times when people face circumstances that are hard to deal with, they often create a narrative of life that allows them to reconcile what’s going on around them with whatever they are having trouble dealing with. If someone has a hard time accepting that sometimes good people die young, and believing that God had a purpose for that person or something along those line helps, then by all means do your thing.

Science has done wonders for advancing the quality of human life though, and religion should not get in the way of that. When religion gets in the way of things like stem cell research and teaching kids evolution, I’ve got beef.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Wait you want to tax them, and make them divulge their proprietorial secrets? [/quote]

Secrets? What are they hiding?

People who give up their money to these organizations have a right to know how their money is being spent.