Gitmo: Useful/Necessary?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

elk,

The issue is the RIDICULOUSLY SKEWED reporting on Iraq.

We had to start several GOOD NEWS threads just to tease out the information.

That it takes WORK to find the positives is horseshit.

It’s not that it isn’t there, it is because it isn’t being reported.

By the way, please indicate ONE conflict in the history of humankind that has gone according to plan?

I mean it. One.

You’ll find plenty of “We’ll be home by Christmas.” Or, in the case of Gulf War One, “We’ll suffer tons of casualties at the hands of the fourth largest army in the world.”

You spare your invective for the Republicans who you despise. That’s a large part of the problem with you.

JeffR

82

You spare your invective for the Republicans who you despise. That’s a large part of the problem with you.

I for the most part respond to how, I feel people respond to me or to the idea’s or beliefs, I have.

Hedo makes an effort, so I reciprocate with making an effort. His responses make me want to look at his point of view even if ultimately we still disagree, which is usually the case.

You on the other hand choose to communicate in a disrespectful, condescending, juvenile, manner. You never make an attempt to look at an opposing viewpoint. You just go on incessantly with your childish cheerleading.

Your buddy Cream on the other hand is insulting, snide, and extremely hostile and small.

I have responded to you both in the same way that you present yourself to these forums.

You both have made remarks about myself and others physiques and training while extolling the magnificence of your own… without of course any thing to back this up.

You never contribute anything remotely positive to these or other forum threads.

So, I guess in one respect you are right about the invective, but it is reserved for those that deserve it, not Republicans.

83

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
hedo wrote:
No doubt.

I expect our government to use our media. It’s the enemy using it,who I take issue with. ( i.e. terrorists and former Soviet Union)

Even if it’s used for wrong, evil, deceptive, purposes by our Gov.

Hedo, I know you were and are a 4.0 Soldier and Warrior, but would that be to the extent of an SS trooper or a Khmer Rouge soldier, where even in the face of wrongdoing you wouldn’t question your orders or who was giving them? [/quote]

Thought provoking question. It’s easy to answer in the comfort of my office.

I would never committ an atrocity and don’t think I would have made a good SS Trooper.

However I also wouldn’t question an order such as “We’re going to Iraq” or we “attack Baghdad tomorrow”. How I conduct myself during an operation was my call. Deciding on the operation itself wasn’t. The contrary would be anarchy in the ranks.

For example. I remember seeing columns of unarmed Iraqi’s walking thru our lines. We tossed them water when we had it. They fought honorably and surrendered when it became hopeless for them. That’s humanity during war. If we had to root them out of individual houses while they used civilians as shields, I don’t think we would have treated them so kind. As I have said before your enemy defines the level of brutality in war. No AMerican soldier is a robot anymore. At least none I have met.

84

I am not saying that you yourself would commit atrocities. I brought that up (the SS) as an example of soldiers blindly or fanatically following orders.

Your comment that it is in the governments right to manipulate the media made me think you would condone a police state.

And, that goes back to aren’t we liberating the Iraqi’s from the evils of a police state?

85

Elk

I think we have debated to a draw. That’s a good thing. Hopefully we each got a little insight. I’ll buy the first round you get the next.

I posted that article to get some discussion going cause I really think manipulation of the media and courts by our enemy is possible.

I know the government spins the media and I am OK with that because I don’t believe most of what the media reports and it’s par part of the game.

86

While doing some spin-up for my upcoming deployment I found this article. Hopefully, for all the confused, this clears up what torture really is. Going by Durbin’s definition, I, as well as others I am sure, have been “tortured” several times over the course of my career.
If you follow the link it includes pictures of the men and the mess that was made of them, not for the squeamish.

http://www.marines.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/0/e7af7c6dc42142a48525702500562537?OpenDocument

ISF, RCT-2 find torture chamber, rescue four hostages
Submitted by: 2nd Marine Division
Story by: Computed Name: Staff Sgt. Timothy S. Edwards
Story Identification #: 2005619114056

AR RAMADI, Iraq(June 19, 2005) – Iraqi Security Forces and Marines, sailors and soldiers with Regimental Combat Team ? 2 rescued four Iraqi men from an insurgent torture chamber in Karabilah, Iraq while conducting Operation Romhe June 18.

The four men, who had been beaten and tortured with electric shock, were provided medical care and transported to a medical facility.

?The torture house discovered by Company K, 3rd Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment provides another sobering glimpse into the murder and intimidation campaign being waged against the citizens of Al Anbar Province,? said Lt. Col. Christopher C. Starling, the operations officer for RCT ? 2.

Iraqi Security Forces and coalition forces, operating from intelligence obtained by advanced reconnaissance, entered a building complex thought to be a either a vehicle-borne improvised explosive device factory or a cache site for weapons and ammunition.

?There were definite indications of bad guys there,? said Col. Bob Chase, operations officer for the 2nd Marine Division. ?But nothing had prepared them for what they found going in.?

The hostages were found malnourished, dehydrated, beaten, bruised across the back, blindfolded and cuffed to a wall, according to Chase. One was found under a stairwell away from the others. He was at first thought to be dead.

According to the hostages, they had been held for approximately three weeks and were never told why.

Medical care of the hostages was the immediate priority. They received immediate first aid then were transported to Al Qaim for any follow-on treatment they may need and recovery.

This type of action on the part of insurgents and foreign fighters are common, according to Chase.

?We think it is part of their murder and intimidation campaign,? he said. ?When insurgents lose control over an area because they can no longer provide what they originally offered, they resort to this type of intimidation. This is a way of letting the people know that they are in charge.

?They use it to keep the people quiet and in line.?

The insurgents who ran this facility are believed to be affiliated with various terrorist networks.

?Materials discovered at the city and interviews with the victims rescued by Marines, clearly implicates foreign fighters linked to Abu Musab Al Zarqawi?s terrorist network,? said Starling.

Manuals, books, and DVDs found in the facility and a car bomb factory located adjacent to the building containing the torture room clearly identified this as an insurgent training center and possible safe haven for those en route to Baghdad or Mosul.

According to Chase, manuals were found instructing in the validity of taking hostages, the validity of beheadings and on insurgency tactics.

?The irony is one of the car bomb factories found was in a school,? he said.

A small weapons cache was also found within the complex which insurgents used to attack the ISF and coalition forces entering the city.

?It is a small cache compared to others that have been located,? Chase said. ?It is believed that the insurgents were using it as a source to draw from as they held the complex against us. We received a lot of (indirect direct fire) as we moved against it.

?A number of insurgents were killed when we entered the building but none were reported captured,? he continued. ?Those that we are fighting are either moving or dieing.?

This find confirms what ISF and coalition forces have told the Iraqi people and allowed the media embedded with the forces to show that the insurgents aren?t here to help Iraq.

?It is a common theme we have been telling the people of Iraq,? Chase said. ?This is visual proof of that.?

-30-

Photos included with story: KARABILAH, Iraq ? An Iraqi man, who was held captive and beaten, had welts and lacerations across his back and arms from being tortured with electricity. This man and three others were rescued by Iraqi Security Forces and Marines from 3rd Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment who discovered an insurgent torture chamber in the city of Karabilah, Iraq during Operation Romhe. The Marines had entered a building which they believed to be a car bomb factory finding these men. The man was hung by his feet, head dipped in water and then tortured with electric shock. The four Iraqis received immediate first aid and were transported to a medical facility for further treatment and recovery.
Operation Romhe?s mission is to destroy strong points held by insurgents in the city of Karabilah. The Marines of 2nd Marine Division conduct counter-insurgency operations with Iraqi Security Forces to isolate and neutralize Anti-Iraqi Forces, to support the continued development of Iraqi Security Forces, and to support Iraqi reconstruction and democratic elections in order to create a secure environment that enables Iraqi self-reliance and self-governance.
Photo by: Staff Sgt. Jason D. Becksted

KARABILAH, Iraq ? An Iraqi man, who was held captive and beaten, had welts and lacerations across his back and arms from being tortured with electricity. This man and three others were rescued by Iraqi Security Forces and Marines from 3rd Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment who discovered an insurgent torture chamber in the city of Karabilah, Iraq during Operation Romhe. The Marines had entered a building which they believed to be a car bomb factory finding these men. The man was hung by his feet, head dipped in water and then tortured with electric shock. The four Iraqis received immediate first aid and were transported to a medical facility for further treatment and recovery.
Operation Romhe?s mission is to destroy strong points held by insurgents in the city of Karabilah. The Marines of 2nd Marine Division conduct counter-insurgency operations with Iraqi Security Forces to isolate and neutralize Anti-Iraqi Forces, to support the continued development of Iraqi Security Forces, and to support Iraqi reconstruction and democratic elections in order to create a secure environment that enables Iraqi self-reliance and self-governance. Photo by: Staff Sgt. Jason D. Becksted

KARABILAH, Iraq ? An Iraqi man, who was held captive and beaten, had welts and lacerations across his back and arms from being tortured with electricity. This man and three others were rescued by Iraqi Security Forces and Marines from 3rd Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment who discovered an insurgent torture chamber in the city of Karabilah, Iraq during Operation Romhe. The Marines had entered a building which they believed to be a car bomb factory finding these men. The man was hung by his feet, head dipped in water and then tortured with electric shock. The four Iraqis received immediate first aid and were transported to a medical facility for further treatment and recovery.
Operation Romhe?s mission is to destroy strong points held by insurgents in the city of Karabilah. The Marines of 2nd Marine Division conduct counter-insurgency operations with Iraqi Security Forces to isolate and neutralize Anti-Iraqi Forces, to support the continued development of Iraqi Security Forces, and to support Iraqi reconstruction and democratic elections in order to create a secure environment that enables Iraqi self-reliance and self-governance. Photo by: Staff Sgt. Jason D. Becksted

KARABILAH, Iraq - Bolt cutters are used to remove handcuffs from an Iraqi man who was held captive and beaten. The man had welts and lacerations across his back and arms from being tortured with electricity. This man and three others were rescued by Iraqi Security Forces and Marines from 3rd Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment who discover an insurgent torture chamber in the city of Karabilah, Iraq during Operation Romhe. The Marines had entered a building which they believed to be a car bomb factory finding these men. The man was hung by his feet, head dipped in water and then tortured with electric shock. The four Iraqis received immediate first aid and were transported to a medical facility for further treatment and recovery.
Operation Romhe?s mission is to destroy strong points held by insurgents in the city of Karabilah. The Marines of 2nd Marine Division conduct counter-insurgency operations with Iraqi Security Forces to isolate and neutralize Anti-Iraqi Forces, to support the continued development of Iraqi Security Forces, and to support Iraqi reconstruction and democratic elections in order to create a secure environment that enables Iraqi self-reliance and self-governance. Photo by: Cpl. Neill A. Sevelius

KARABILAH, Iraq - An Iraqi man, who was held captive and beaten, had welts and lacerations across his back and arms from being tortured with electricity. This man and three others were rescued by Iraqi Security Forces and Marines from 3rd Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment who discover an insurgent torture chamber in the city of Karabilah, Iraq during Operation Romhe. The Marines had entered a building which they believed to be a car bomb factory finding these men. The man was hung by his feet, head dipped in water and then tortured with electric shock. The four Iraqis received immediate first aid and were transported to a medical facility for further treatment and recovery.
Operation Romhe?s mission is to destroy strong points held by insurgents in the city of Karabilah. The Marines of 2nd Marine Division conduct counter-insurgency operations with Iraqi Security Forces to isolate and neutralize Anti-Iraqi Forces, to support the continued development of Iraqi Security Forces, and to support Iraqi reconstruction and democratic elections in order to create a secure environment that enables Iraqi self-reliance and self-governance. Photo by: Cpl. Neill A. Sevelius

Text version of story is attached below:

87

[quote]vroom wrote:
Do you firmly believe that any amount of oversee can prevent any and all illegal/immoral behavior by any and all of those under command? I have acknowledged that those who act egregously should be punished accordingly. Your assertion is this all falls on the commanders shoulders–All the way to the President I presume.

I assume your place of employment has some directive wrt to theft of either moneys or information. I amcertain both are ocurring as we speak. Is this a sign of poor leadership?

Sasquatch,

Are you trying to have a serious conversation or are you simply being silly.

Do you refuse to believe that steps above and beyond simple directives can be taken if the situation warrants?

In the business world, if proper controls, as defined by industry standards and practices, are not in place, then indeed it is a sign of poor leadership.

Are you sure you really are the MCKU? I’m beginning to have my doubts.

It’s simple risk management. What is the level of risk? Appropriate steps are then taken to ameliorate it. A good example would be controls on financial systems to ensure that no single person has the authority to rob the company blind.

Above and beyond simple directives, what controls are in place to ensure that this behavior does not take place?

Obviously, the controls were not in place at one point, perhaps they are now that some issues have been brought to light… who knows, I don’t.[/quote]

I don’t refuse to believe anything. Your interpretation there. I simply suggested that no amount of controls will give you 100% compliance in most any given environment. Business or otherwise. Look at all the controls in a prison. Look at all the contraband available. Simple analogy

Most times it takes a situation to bring about a stronger solution. That is, and always has been the order. How many bad things do you read about that are then given a different control mechanism to assist? That’s risk management. You can’t forsee, nor is it feesible to try to anticipate, all situations.

Sidebar–once again your post is condescending and you prove yourself a real class act. I wish you would stick to answering posts without the crap, but I guess that’s not possible. It’s to bad you find me silly. If you were so inclined, you could actually learn something and take something away from the discussion instead of just taking away from the discussion.

88

[quote]hedo wrote:
Elk

I think we have debated to a draw. That’s a good thing. Hopefully we each got a little insight. I’ll buy the first round you get the next.

I posted that article to get some discussion going cause I really think manipulation of the media and courts by our enemy is possible.

I know the government spins the media and I am OK with that because I don’t believe most of what the media reports and it’s par part of the game.[/quote]

I believe you are correct. I agree you have given me some insight and if we do ever have the pleasure of meeting, I will buy the first round my friend! Hmm, maybe we can debate over that?

89

News Flash: GITMO Redundant…

Excerpts for the lazy…

–
Secret transfers of suspects to foreign states for interrogation are an acknowledged tool of the United States in its war on terrorism, but it denies charges that the practice – known as rendition – amounts to outsourcing torture.

President Bush said in March that the United States only delivers terrorism suspects to nations once it has obtained assurances they will not be tortured

–
The Italian prosecutors office said Nasr appeared to have been subjected to abuse in Egyptian custody.

He was temporarily released in 2004 for medical reasons after apparently enduring “physical violence to get him to respond to questions by interrogators,” it said in the statement.

–
Confirming the arrest warrant without mentioning the U.S. intelligence agency, the prosecutors office said the 13 suspects were believed to be behind the abduction of imam Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, also known as Abu Omar, who was grabbed off a Milan street on Feb. 17, 2003 and stuffed into a white van.

Nasr was then taken to a U.S. air base in Aviano, Italy and flown to Egypt, stopping over on the way in Ramstein, Germany, to change planes, the prosecutors’ statement said.

–
Foreign intelligence officials believe Nasr had fought in Afghanistan and Bosnia before arriving in Italy in 1997 and obtaining political refugee status. When he disappeared, he was under investigation in Italy for suspected ties to terrorism, including recruiting militants for Iraq.

Italy laid charges against Nasr on Friday, formally ordering his arrest for terrorism, which paves the way for his possible extradition to Milan. But his current whereabouts are unknown.

90

Yet another reason not to sign on to the ICC…

91

BB,

Are you suggesting that Italian agents should roam the streets of America and kidnap US citizens at will, if they deem it in the best interests of their country?

92

What I Saw at Gitmo
By Lt. Col. Gordon Cucullu June 27, 2005

Last week, I was privileged to be part of a Department of Defense trip to the Joint Task Force - Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. I got to see the operations of this ?controversial? facility up-close ? something particularly important after Sen. Richard Durbin?s comparison of its guard to Nazi stormtroopers and calls of leftists to shut the center down. Our group went to GITMO to check out tales that the military was being too tough on these terrorist detainees. We left convinced that America is being extraordinarily lenient ? far too lenient.

After speaking with soldiers, sailors, and civilians who collectively staff Gitmo, I left convinced that abuse definitely exists at the detention facilities, and it typically fails to receive the press attention it deserves: it?s the relentless, merciless attacks on American servicemen and women by these terrorist thugs. Many of the orange jumpsuit-clad detainees fight their captors at every opportunity, openly bragging of their desire to kill Americans.

One has promised that, if released, he would find MPs in their homes through the internet, break into their houses at night, and ?cut the throats of them and their families like sheep.? Others claim authority and vindication to kill women, children, and other innocents who oppose their jihadist mission authorized by the Koran (the same one that hangs in every cell from a specially-designed holder intended to protect it from a touching the cell floor ? all provided at U.S. taxpayer expense). One detainee was heard to tell another: ?One day I will enjoy sucking American blood, although their blood is bitter, undrinkable?.?

These recalcitrant detainees are known euphemistically as being ?non-compliant.? They attack guards whenever the soldiers enter their cells, trying to reach up under protective facemasks to gouge eyes and tear mouths. They make weapons and try to stab the guards or grab and break limbs as the guards pass them food.

We dined with the soldiers, toured several of the individual holding camps, observed interrogations, and inspected cells. We were impressed by the universally high quality of the cadre and the facilities. While it may not be exactly ?Club GITMO,? as Rush Limbaugh uses to tweak the hard-Left critics who haven?t a clue about reality here, GITMO is a far cry from the harshness experienced even by maximum security prisoners in the U.S.

Meals for detainees are ample: we lunched on what several thought was an accumulated single day?s ration for detainees. ?No,? the contract food service manager said with a laugh, ?what you?re looking at there is today?s lunch. A single meal. They get three a day like that.? The vegetables, pita bread, and other well-prepared food filled two of the large Styrofoam take-home containers we see in restaurants. Several prisoners have special meal orders like ?no tomatoes? or ?no peanut products? depending on taste or allergies. ?One prisoner,? General Hood said, ?throws back his food tray if it contains things he has specifically said he doesn?t want.?

How is he punished for this outrageous behavior? His tray is numbered, the food he requested is put on it, and the corrected ?order? is delivered to his cell.

The detainees are similarly catered to medically. Almost every one arrived at GITMO with some sort of battlefield trauma. After all, the majority were captured in combat. Today they are healthy, immunized, and well cared for. At a visit to the modern hospital facility ? dedicated solely to the detainees and comparable to a well-equipped and staffed small-town hospital with operating, dental, routine facilities ? the doctor in charge confirmed that the caloric count for the detainees was so high that while ?most detainees arrived undernourished,? medics now watch for issues stemming from high cholesterol and being overweight.

Each of approximately 520 terrorists currently held in confinement averages about four medical visits monthly, something one would expect from only a dedicated American hypochondriac. Welcome to the rigors of detention under American supervision.

Of the estimated 70,000 battlefield captures that were made in Afghanistan, only a tiny percentage, something on the order of 800-plus, were eventually evacuated to GITMO. These were the worst of the worst. More than 200 have been released back to their home country ? if the U.S. is assured that the detainees would not be tortured by local authorities upon return. These men were freed because they were deemed by ongoing official military review processes to no longer pose a threat, or to possess no useful intelligence.

And this process has proven too generous at times: more than 10 released GITMO detainees have been killed or recaptured fighting Americans or have been identified as resuming terrorist activities. Still, the process is up and running for review of cases, and if a Washington DC circuit court approves a government appeal, the system for military tribunals will get started. All mechanisms are in place and ready to go as soon as DoD gets a green light.

There is a good reason these unlawful combatants are being confined. They are evil and dangerous individuals. Yet these thugs are treated with an amazing degree of compassion: They are given ice cream treats and recreational time. They live in clean facilities, and receive a full Muslim religious package of Koran, prayer rug, beads, and prayer oils. An arrow in every cell points to Mecca. The call to prayer is played five times daily. They are not abused, hanged, tortured, beheaded, raped, mutilated, or in any way treated the way that they once treated their own captives ? or now treat their guards.

Some questioned whether it were wise to give these radical Islamic fundamentalists the religious supplies that ended up landing them in Gitmo in the first place. ?Giving them the Koran is simply something that we think we ought to do as a humane gesture,? said second-in-command Brigadier General Gong. ?We?re Americans. That?s how we operate.?

When we challenged military authorities about the seemingly plush environs these would-be murderers receive, the commanding officers stated this was the most productive course. JTF-GITMO commanding officer Brigadier General Jay Hood radiated confidence and determination when fielding challenges from our group about his overly lenient treatment. ?It works,? he says simply. ?We do not allow torture or mistreatment, period.? How to they guarantee this? By rigorous, on-going training and constant oversight up and down the supervisory chain.

As proof that ?establishing rapport? with the detainees is far more effective than coercive techniques, General Hood refers skeptics to the massive amount of usable intelligence information JTF-GITMO continues to produce even three years into the program.

You are right to worry about inhumane treatment taking place at GITMO. But your concern should be for the dedicated, well-trained, highly professional American men and women who are subjected to a daily barrage of feces, urine, semen, and spit hurled at them along with vile invective as they implement a humane, enlightened system of confinement on men who want nothing more than to kill Americans. These quiet professional Americans, who live under the motto ?Honor Bound for Defense of Freedom,? deserve our utmost respect and concern. Shame on anyone who slanders or disrespects them for short-term and short-sighted political advantage.

Lt. Col. Gordon Cucullu has been an Army Green Beret lieutenant colonel, as well as a writer, popular speaker, business executive and farmer. His most recent book is Separated at Birth, about North and South Korea.