Girlfriend Wants to Get Married, Dilemma

Off Topic
121

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

An engagement is not a marriage. All she’s asking at this point is a promise to get married later. She probably wants to show her friends/sister she’s not a fool. And she needs to convince herself. Until marriage actually occurs, nothing is final. It’s tantamount to the negotiations that lead up to contractual obligations. Until a contract is signed, you’ve really got nothing but an idea of what the other party intends to commit to.[/quote]

What contract?

Marriage in such a climate basically means signing over your life.

What does the man get out of this?

I call such terms “unconditional surrender”. [/quote]

He gets “unconditional sex”.

I have always thought that women willing to have sex outside marriage should always charge.
Because there is no such a thing as surrendering yourself to a man sexually without wanting something in return.

Men should know this by now.
[/quote]

See…I was right.[/quote]

The thing is though, the cat is out if the bag.

The tradition that married of young men and women off at a very young age reigned in both male polygamy and female hypergamy.

That benefitted the large majority of society at the expense of young women and the few men who would have drowned in pussy.

However, those social mores needed centuries of learning the hard way and there is no way that the majority of women go the Lysistrata route now.

That would basically mean forming a cartel and it would run into the same problems every cartel in a free market runs into, it is beneficial for the individual players to publicly uphold the “rules” while privately breaking them.

If one really wanted to get back to this, one would have to let women live or die by their own choices, no public assistance, no public schools, nothing, and watch with steely eyed resolve as a good part of them drowns, for the good of the republic.

Not gonna happen either, so we just go broke and start fresh which is pretty much the same thing, but, nobody consciously made the decision so we will all be able to pretend like it was not our fault.

122

(giggle)

ya’ll’re claiming that pussy is free…

(shakes head, rolls eyes).

btw - fucking marry her.

if you end up not liking each other, get divorced, and find another one.

what seems to be the problem here?

123

[quote]jewishthunder wrote:
Hey so my girlfriend of 5 years whom I love very much is really pushing to get married. Yesterday. That kind of pressure. Keep in mind we are both 24. Have had some ups and downs in our relationship. We share a dog, apartment and a lot of other random shit. Not that that really matters in this.

To those who have been in the situation of not wanting to get married, what’s the play here. It has gotten to the point of an ultimatum almost of marry her or be single.

I just don’t want to get married right now. It’s not her, it’s just the activity. I don’t wanna.

TL:DR GF of 5 years wants to get married ASAP, I don’t. Thoughts?[/quote]

Let her get married, just not to you…

124

[quote]Edgy wrote:

ya’ll’re claiming that pussy is free…

[/quote]

Pussy is easy and free.

Getting them to leave, however, is often complicated – and sometimes expensive and dangerous.

125

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]Edgy wrote:

ya’ll’re claiming that pussy is free…

[/quote]

Pussy is easy and free.

Getting them to leave, however, is often complicated – and sometimes expensive and dangerous.[/quote]

Would you be open the idea that your shenanigans are not represantative for the overall male experience?

126

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]Edgy wrote:

ya’ll’re claiming that pussy is free…

[/quote]

Pussy is easy and free.

Getting them to leave, however, is often complicated – and sometimes expensive and dangerous.[/quote]

well, this is a good point… I stand corrected, my good friend.

127

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

An engagement is not a marriage. All she’s asking at this point is a promise to get married later. She probably wants to show her friends/sister she’s not a fool. And she needs to convince herself. Until marriage actually occurs, nothing is final. It’s tantamount to the negotiations that lead up to contractual obligations. Until a contract is signed, you’ve really got nothing but an idea of what the other party intends to commit to.[/quote]

What contract?

Marriage in such a climate basically means signing over your life.

What does the man get out of this?

I call such terms “unconditional surrender”. [/quote]

My point is that if OP gets engaged, and subsequently does his research, along with plenty of soul searching, and decides marriage is not for him, then no harm done. He takes the ring back, they split their assets up as they see fit, yell at each other a bunch, and move on. My point relates to what action he should take now. I’m actually not suggesting that marriage is the right move. I’m saying he should offer a ring in the VERY near future, or let her go, given what he has said about her feelings on the issue.[/quote]

Small point of consideration here…

In California, engagement rings are considered conditional gifts given in contemplation of marriage. If there is a dispute over the ring the court takes into consideration the circumstances of the breakup. This means if he calls off the wedding she will likely be able to keep the ring.

Just food for thought OP before you go out and purchase a few-thousand-dollar rock thinking it will buy you some more time.
[/quote]

You could offer the ring on a contractual basis where she agrees to return it if things don’t work out. Provided the contract wasn’t signed under duress, I’m pretty sure that would hold up pretty solidly in court.

EDIT: I’m still amused at the idea of proposing at gunpoint.[/quote]

How romantic.[/quote]

Meh. No less romantic than the laws that say you give it up if things don’t work out.[/quote]

Yeah, but by then the stuff has already hit the fan. How do you think she’ll react when he drops to a knee and says, “Sweetheart, will you give me the honor of marrying me and accept this token of my love upon the condition that you return said token to me in the event that circumstances arise which cause the cancellation of our wedding, where the fault may be attributed to either or both parties?”

128

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:
Small point of consideration here…

In California, engagement rings are considered conditional gifts given in contemplation of marriage. If there is a dispute over the ring the court takes into consideration the circumstances of the breakup. This means if he calls off the wedding she will likely be able to keep the ring.

Just food for thought OP before you go out and purchase a few-thousand-dollar rock thinking it will buy you some more time.
[/quote]

You could offer the ring on a contractual basis where she agrees to return it if things don’t work out. Provided the contract wasn’t signed under duress, I’m pretty sure that would hold up pretty solidly in court.

EDIT: I’m still amused at the idea of proposing at gunpoint.[/quote]

How romantic.[/quote]

Meh. No less romantic than the laws that say you give it up if things don’t work out.[/quote]

Yeah, but by then the stuff has already hit the fan. How do you think she’ll react when he drops to a knee and says, “Sweetheart, will you give me the honor of marrying me and accept this token of my love upon the condition that you return said token to me in the event that circumstances arise which cause the cancellation of our wedding, where the fault may be attributed to either or both parties?”
[/quote]

If you take out a loan on the ring, does the financial responsibility transfer too? Because that might be an option…

But, back here in reality, I wouldn’t do any of that. The only think I might genuinely consider is using a somewhat lower grade [but still very nice] stone in the engagement ring, to be replaced with the ‘real’ stone after the wedding… at least if there’s any possible chance I wouldn’t get the ring back if something goes awry. Then again, I probably wouldn’t propose if that was actually an issue.

130

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Oh my.

Derek is on fire!

It’s almost as if he has some experience with a successful relationship…[/quote]

it’s all BS, Chushie - his ‘wife’ is really a thai ladyboy…

131

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Run.

If you submit to her ultimatum THIS time, it will set a precedent. She may WANT you to say, “OK, let’s get married”. But in reality, she will lose respect for you and will subconsciously see you for the pushover you would be (for letting a woman brow-beat you into making a life changing decision before YOU are ready). IMHO, you will spend the rest of your miserable life compromising what’s important to you for what’s important to HER. AGAIN AND AGAIN.

Even if you WANT to marry her now, tell her “no” right now and propose to her in a few months. Just so she knows that she isn’t running the show or driving YOUR decisions. You are the fucking MAN. Act like one. YOUR life is YOUR path. She is welcome to walk YOUR path with you. If she successfully takes you off YOUR path, she has effectively castrated you - you may as well cut your own nuts off, put them in a mason jar for her to display on the mantle. Make no mistake about it, this is a shit test and she’s playing for keeps. If you play, you lose. ULTIMATUM = DEAL BREAKER TO MEN WITH SELF ESTEEM AND MATURE BOUNDARIES. YOU CAN DO BETTER.

RUN. [/quote]

AC is right. I did not know this about women 12 years ago and am now in the 12th year of the most miserable time of my life. She will lose respect and you will, to avoid the most horrific fights in front of your kids, spend most of your time compromising yourself. And it will NOT make her happy. Nothing will because she wants the guy who would have had the strength to say “no”.

I did not have enough self esteem and am paying the price. Hope you will do better.
[/quote]
That was depressing… :expressionless:

132

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Run.

If you submit to her ultimatum THIS time, it will set a precedent. She may WANT you to say, “OK, let’s get married”. But in reality, she will lose respect for you and will subconsciously see you for the pushover you would be (for letting a woman brow-beat you into making a life changing decision before YOU are ready). IMHO, you will spend the rest of your miserable life compromising what’s important to you for what’s important to HER. AGAIN AND AGAIN.

Even if you WANT to marry her now, tell her “no” right now and propose to her in a few months. Just so she knows that she isn’t running the show or driving YOUR decisions. You are the fucking MAN. Act like one. YOUR life is YOUR path. She is welcome to walk YOUR path with you. If she successfully takes you off YOUR path, she has effectively castrated you - you may as well cut your own nuts off, put them in a mason jar for her to display on the mantle. Make no mistake about it, this is a shit test and she’s playing for keeps. If you play, you lose. ULTIMATUM = DEAL BREAKER TO MEN WITH SELF ESTEEM AND MATURE BOUNDARIES. YOU CAN DO BETTER.

RUN. [/quote]
I know i’m a little late but this!

My friend who just got married a month ago had his GF doing something like this to him a few years ago. She was complaining to everyone, including him, that he hadn’t proposed yet and shit like that. He actually already had a ring picked out and everything for her. He purposely held onto the ring and waited another year or so before he proposed. I gave him some props for that.

133

Buy a real rock, and 2 fake rocks that all look similar. Tell she can keep whichever one she picks out…

The OP sounds like he’s dealing with a typical girl that age, who’s friends are getting married (soon to be divorced or miserable) and posting pictures all over facebook and she wants to be a part of it. Wants the wedding(attention) more than the marriage.

Whoever posted about going down to the courthouse to sign the marriage papers the next day means she’s a keeper vs. waiting however long for a big wedding means run fast is spot on.

134

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
Just a random thought after reading this thread – It seems that an abundance of modern women are not familiar with the phrase Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free. They rush into playing house to show their love interest what a great catch they are and, in turn, take away the man’s incentive to make a commitment. After all, why would he when he’s already reaping all of the benefits?

My own situation was a little different from yours but at the point that I knew I had feelings for my now husband, I approached a conversation about what his long-term intentions were. I needed to know that things would either end or progress towards marriage. Anything else was wasting my time. To say that he was surprised and offended would be an understatement. It wasn’t to me about an immediate marriage but more about how honorable his intentions were. At any rate, he wasn’t forced into anything, nor was I. It was more about us both being on the same page as far as what our expectations were regarding our relationship. If you don’t have the same expectations, someone is going to be hurt or end up feeling screwed over or short-changed. Clear that up.

For the record, my husband didn’t even touch a boob for four months. That leads back to my original thought about women giving things up too fast. Too much is shared, too soon. Most women instinctively look for a commitment. They’re doing it backwards though. You get the commitment first, play wifey later.[/quote]

The problem with this post is you are reinforcing the notion that sex is a commodity to be bought and sold.

Man = john

Woman = hooker[/quote]

Not the way that I see it. If you know what you’re getting for Christmas then it’s not so much fun anymore, is it?

My points were:

  1. You don’t have to have sex on the first date, it’s okay to wait
  2. When things seem like they have the potential to be serious, make your expectations known and then there is no confusion
  3. My husband is a good, honorable man that stepped up to the plate
  4. Women want some form of commitment. Some women like to play wife and when the novelty wears off and it’s exposed that a relationship is hard work, she unravels and he bails.

My husband and I don’t use sex as a commodity nor do I recommend doing that. Men and women have complimentary roles and if they are a good partner, they will use their own skills and talents to better the relationship/marriage and make their partners life easier. Their mate should do the same. There is definitely an “exchange” if you want to call it that but it’s not akin to prostitution. Well, I suppose some people could make it that cheap but that’s not indicative of everyone.

135

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

lol How true.

136

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

Actually probably more than anything this is what she wants, for you to fucking talk to her, women love to hear your inner thoughts and fears. This is not giving in, this is being an adult and discussing the truth about commitment, what it means to you, your view of what a marriage means in regards to financial, emotional, etc. Then like IH says you both can either move on or make plans as a couple and not a co-dependent “game” bullshit that most young people want to fall into. Having difficult discussions not fights but discussions is what you need to be having now, so that if you do decide to get married in the future this will be how you handle most issues. [/quote]

What a great post. I have never known a woman who did not love to hear people’s inner thoughts. Everyone’s inner thoughts! But especially her man’s and particularly when those thoughts offer reassurance that he is on the same page, feelings-wise. Even if he doesn’t want to act on the feelings in the same way.

137

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

Actually probably more than anything this is what she wants, for you to fucking talk to her, women love to hear your inner thoughts and fears. This is not giving in, this is being an adult and discussing the truth about commitment, what it means to you, your view of what a marriage means in regards to financial, emotional, etc. Then like IH says you both can either move on or make plans as a couple and not a co-dependent “game” bullshit that most young people want to fall into. Having difficult discussions not fights but discussions is what you need to be having now, so that if you do decide to get married in the future this will be how you handle most issues. [/quote]

What a great post. I have never known a woman who did not love to hear people’s inner thoughts. Everyone’s inner thoughts! But especially her man’s and particularly when those thoughts offer reassurance that he is on the same page, feelings-wise. Even if he doesn’t want to act on the feelings in the same way.
[/quote]
What are your thoughts on the OP and on ultimatums in general, Em?

138

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

On the other hand, I think that describes what happens in a marriage with inexperienced individuals. Not necessarily immature, just inexperienced. I think if both people understand those dynamics, things can and do work quite a bit differently.[/quote]

You have seen the reactions of Debra and Emily in this threads.

By denying that “game” works they basically deny that there even are “dynamics” men could hack into.

We both know that they do exist and what a difference they make if you work them hard.

If those two fight that knowledge with every fiber of their being could you please tell me how the average woman can not only learn to accept it, but also to control it?

How?[/quote]

I fight this with every fiber of my being?? No I don’t! I have acknowledged over and over again that I see differences between the sexes, both generally speaking and in my own relationships. I only point out that your attitudes limit you to lousy women. The exact type you fear. I found the link you posted laughable in its fear-mongering. Men describing their wives as EVIL, oh noes! Do you really believe that intelligent, competent men are victimizable to this sad degree? Do you forget that men’s infidelity rate is higher than women’s? And why have you not yet even begun to digest the narrowing wage gap between men and women? :frowning:

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[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

Actually probably more than anything this is what she wants, for you to fucking talk to her, women love to hear your inner thoughts and fears. This is not giving in, this is being an adult and discussing the truth about commitment, what it means to you, your view of what a marriage means in regards to financial, emotional, etc. Then like IH says you both can either move on or make plans as a couple and not a co-dependent “game” bullshit that most young people want to fall into. Having difficult discussions not fights but discussions is what you need to be having now, so that if you do decide to get married in the future this will be how you handle most issues. [/quote]

What a great post. I have never known a woman who did not love to hear people’s inner thoughts. Everyone’s inner thoughts! But especially her man’s and particularly when those thoughts offer reassurance that he is on the same page, feelings-wise. Even if he doesn’t want to act on the feelings in the same way.
[/quote]
What are your thoughts on the OP and on ultimatums in general, Em?[/quote]

I don’t know. They’re young, but they’ve been together for quite a while. I really have no strong opinion, other than that Derek’s advice is spot on. She needs something from him, but I’m not convinced it’s a diamond today OR ELSE. I think it would be a mistake for the OP to treat her like an asshole gold digger when she probably just wants to know that it’s real and he wants what she does.

I would hate for her to spend her life believing she had to beg him to marry her and then he reluctantly agreed, eventually, under duress.

140

My opinion, as a woman, is that the “ultimatums” are there because he is unavailable emotionally.
Intellectualizing emotion is not the same as being opened emotionally.

Key word: transparency. Be transparent.

If I were him I would put my heart on the table and see how she treats it.

If all she wants is a rock on her finger and the facebook announcements for her friends then it will be obvious then and that will release him from a shallow woman.
If his heart is not in the relationship then she needs to get herself out of it before getting bound up to him and the fucking the dog; he already said he will fight for it over her.

I don’t understand why women want to keep rings and men dogs they shared with an ex…I’d rather walk out only with my self from the relationship. I only need my integrity.

If she is challenging him, rise to the challenge by being transparent and her real motives will be revealed.