[quote]jewishthunder wrote:
Fido aka Tozza will probably still be alive then, she’s just a pup now. I would fight to the end for that little bugger. [/quote]
If you had made God your head instead of a dog, you would probably reflect the qualities of a strong male and therefore attract and be attracted to a suitable female.
[quote]jewishthunder wrote:
We had what some would consider the difficult talk last night. She was far more emotional than I was about it which I think clouted the issue. I stressed that I wasn’t ready right this minute. I would propose to her and it would be on our terms, not hers, not mine, but a joint decision. I stressed that it was completely unfair for her to try to force me into what I wasn’t ready for.
I also mentioned the “it doesn’t change anything between us” idea and she shot that down with if it doesn’t change anything than why are you so hesitant. I said because it’s a huge life decision regardless.
I asked her why she really wants this so bad right now and seemingly all of a sudden and she said it’s because she wants an actual commitment from me. This pissed me off. I am the most loyal of boyfriends, have committed myself to her in every way but a ring and it’s like she is ignoring that completely. So now she is still bitter at me and I don’t have anything else left to say. We will see where that goes today. [/quote]
Those relationship dynamics are pretty familiar. This is a power play from her side, whether she’s aware of it or not. However, you are the one with the power here; you ultimately control whether or not you propose. You also control whether you “give up” that power to her, due to her ability to manipulate your emotions (like, say, getting you pissed off), or her attempts at making you sway from your reasonable, logical approach.
As far as how you actually navigate this, I don’t know. Personally, I’d draw a hard line, let her know that now is not the time, and then just distance yourself from her for awhile. Right now she thinks she has the power to change your mind. Frankly, she doesn’t respect you [enough] right now. Either she responds well to the fact that you held fast, or she ups the ante and threatens to leave. Again, I’d say the right answer is to hold steadfast.
If she leaves, she wasn’t the right girl for you anyway. If she stays, she’ll understand that she can’t push you around.
But that’s me, and what I’d do.
[quote]jewishthunder wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
[quote]jewishthunder wrote:
A couple things. I think California should join Canada because poutine (spelling?) is delicious.
We had what some would consider the difficult talk last night. She was far more emotional than I was about it which I think clouted the issue. I stressed that I wasn’t ready right this minute. I would propose to her and it would be on our terms, not hers, not mine, but a joint decision. I stressed that it was completely unfair for her to try to force me into what I wasn’t ready for.
I also mentioned the “it doesn’t change anything between us” idea and she shot that down with if it doesn’t change anything than why are you so hesitant. I said because it’s a huge life decision regardless.
I asked her why she really wants this so bad right now and seemingly all of a sudden and she said it’s because she wants an actual commitment from me. This pissed me off. I am the most loyal of boyfriends, have committed myself to her in every way but a ring and it’s like she is ignoring that completely. So now she is still bitter at me and I don’t have anything else left to say. We will see where that goes today. [/quote]
Couple things: she was right - if it’s a ‘huge life decision’, then it changes things. your argument was bad.
Also, this isn’t ‘all of a sudden’. I guarantee this has been working in her head for months. Maybe longer. She’s been talking about this with girlfriends. Does she have any recently engaged girlfriends? Recently married? Her best friend is probably telling her she needs to demand more respect from you.
[/quote]
My argument was silo’d about how it wouldn’t magically change our personal relationship. But yes, it’s a poor argument in hindsight. Her sister just got engaged after knowing the guy for 4 months or so. I’m sure there is a correlation there, but she denies that. Lies. It’s not that I haven’t been thinking about all of this either. I have been looking for rings, I have been considering different proposal ideas. I just hate the idea that she is pressuring it so hard and with the use of an ultimatum type argument.
[/quote]
Let me guess, your girlfriend is older and her sister is younger.
Shit, I’m a Jew-in-training and know the story of Rachel and Leah.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Couple things: she was right - if it’s a ‘huge life decision’, then it changes things. your argument was bad.
[/quote]
Oh no, but according to his weak perception: “she shot that down”.
A bad and flawed argument and she knows it.
I find it interesting that it all about her feelings but the interesting fact that she would be entitled to half of OPs stuff if she decided that “she is not haaaaapppy” somehow does not seem to be part of the discussion.
Nor that she expects him to never fuck another woman again, at the tender age of 24, no less, and that married women seem to misteriously lose their sex drive if they know their husband is a sure thing, or when her baby rabies are succesfully treated and that he actually might end up in a shitty appartment on a matress on the floor while she invests substantial parts of his income in her new lover, or the fact that he might go to jail if he cannot keep up with her demands…
But yeah, she does not feel “respected” and whatnot.
I will post this again:
http://dontmarry.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/rotating.pdf
At the very least I would have her read this, girl should know what she actually demands from him and I kind of would like to know what OP is getting out of this.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
I even kept the dog :)[/quote]
Because that is the most important thing.
On the jewish or not jewish thing thats a non issue. We don’t plan on raising kids with religion as a thing at all.
[quote]Alpha F wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
I even kept the dog :)[/quote]
Because that is the most important thing.
[/quote]
In terms of possessions, in that situation, I would say yes. If I’m negotiating between keeping a bedroom set and a dog, it’s a pretty easy decision on my end.
[quote]orion wrote:
I find it interesting that it all about her feelings but the interesting fact that she would be entitled to half of OPs stuff if she decided that “she is not haaaaapppy” somehow does not seem to be part of the discussion.
Nor that she expects him to never fuck another woman again, at the tender age of 24, no less, and that married women seem to misteriously lose their sex drive if they know their husband is a sure thing, or when her baby rabies are succesfully treated and that he actually might end up in a shitty appartment on a matress on the floor while she invests substantial parts of his income in her new lover, or the fact that he might go to jail if he cannot keep up with her demands…
But yeah, she does not feel “respected” and whatnot.
I will post this again:
http://dontmarry.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/rotating.pdf
At the very least I would have her read this, girl should know what she actually demands from him and I kind of would like to know what OP is getting out of this.
[/quote]
An engagement is not a marriage. All she’s asking at this point is a promise to get married later. She probably wants to show her friends/sister she’s not a fool. And she needs to convince herself. Until marriage actually occurs, nothing is final. It’s tantamount to the negotiations that lead up to contractual obligations. Until a contract is signed, you’ve really got nothing but an idea of what the other party intends to commit to.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
An engagement is not a marriage. All she’s asking at this point is a promise to get married later. She probably wants to show her friends/sister she’s not a fool. And she needs to convince herself. Until marriage actually occurs, nothing is final. It’s tantamount to the negotiations that lead up to contractual obligations. Until a contract is signed, you’ve really got nothing but an idea of what the other party intends to commit to.[/quote]
What contract?
Marriage in such a climate basically means signing over your life.
What does the man get out of this?
I call such terms “unconditional surrender”.
[quote]orion wrote:
I will post this again:
http://dontmarry.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/rotating.pdf
At the very least I would have her read this, girl should know what she actually demands from him and I kind of would like to know what OP is getting out of this.
[/quote]
That was an interesting read, at least the first 11 pages. Very longwinded. But I’d say it’s worth reading at least that much if you’re not already familiar with it.
I’ve seen a lot of those pieces happen, like the crazy overfocus on getting married, as if the wedding day is the epitome of happiness (not the lifetime after that date); I’ve seen the guilt, and confusion toward her husband, and the way an affair makes her feel alive (um, I was “the other guy”); I’ve seen the way women confuse “sexual attraction” and “love” (it’s especially bad in abusive relationships); I’ve seen the way that a guy’s emotional unavailability/interest-in-someone-else makes her a lot more interested in him. Etc. etc. Lots of hard truths.
On the other hand, I think that describes what happens in a marriage with inexperienced individuals. Not necessarily immature, just inexperienced. I think if both people understand those dynamics, things can and do work quite a bit differently.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
On the other hand, I think that describes what happens in a marriage with inexperienced individuals. Not necessarily immature, just inexperienced. I think if both people understand those dynamics, things can and do work quite a bit differently.[/quote]
You have seen the reactions of Debra and Emily in this threads.
By denying that “game” works they basically deny that there even are “dynamics” men could hack into.
We both know that they do exist and what a difference they make if you work them hard.
If those two fight that knowledge with every fiber of their being could you please tell me how the average woman can not only learn to accept it, but also to control it?
How?
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
An engagement is not a marriage. All she’s asking at this point is a promise to get married later. She probably wants to show her friends/sister she’s not a fool. And she needs to convince herself. Until marriage actually occurs, nothing is final. It’s tantamount to the negotiations that lead up to contractual obligations. Until a contract is signed, you’ve really got nothing but an idea of what the other party intends to commit to.[/quote]
What contract?
Marriage in such a climate basically means signing over your life.
What does the man get out of this?
I call such terms “unconditional surrender”. [/quote]
My point is that if OP gets engaged, and subsequently does his research, along with plenty of soul searching, and decides marriage is not for him, then no harm done. He takes the ring back, they split their assets up as they see fit, yell at each other a bunch, and move on. My point relates to what action he should take now. I’m actually not suggesting that marriage is the right move. I’m saying he should offer a ring in the VERY near future, or let her go, given what he has said about her feelings on the issue.
Just to throw this out there, based on what I’ve read from the OP, and the fact that this is his first/only serious girlfriend (OP please don’t claim a 17 year old GF was serious), I would think he’d be better off moving on. Just because a relationship is comfortable, and has lasted awhile, doesn’t mean it needs to continue. More often than not, relationships that resemble this one don’t work out long term.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
On the other hand, I think that describes what happens in a marriage with inexperienced individuals. Not necessarily immature, just inexperienced. I think if both people understand those dynamics, things can and do work quite a bit differently.[/quote]
You have seen the reactions of Debra and Emily in this threads.
By denying that “game” works they basically deny that there even are “dynamics” men could hack into.
We both know that they do exist and what a difference they make if you work them hard.
If those two fight that knowledge with every fiber of their being could you please tell me how the average woman can not only learn to accept it, but also to control it?
How?[/quote]
Ok, I’m pretty certain a man can learn those dynamics and his marriage will be better for it.
I want to believe that a woman can do the same thing, and understand some of the forces that are pulling her, and how she reacts to them… and then figure out how to counter them. I’m not sure how much of this is wishful thinking though.
I’ve known 3 girls in my life that seem to have that kind of insight about themselves and women in general. All of whom have already gone through similar kinds of observations and personal experiences, and tried to understand why. But seeing as I’m not married to any of them, I could be wrong. I know they have the insight; I’m just not sure they know how to use that insight.
EDIT: I just reread the question you asked though. For the “average” woman? I say it’s pretty hopeless. But I don’t think that’s the case for all women, at least not at this point.
Just a random thought after reading this thread – It seems that an abundance of modern women are not familiar with the phrase Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free. They rush into playing house to show their love interest what a great catch they are and, in turn, take away the man’s incentive to make a commitment. After all, why would he when he’s already reaping all of the benefits?
My own situation was a little different from yours but at the point that I knew I had feelings for my now husband, I approached a conversation about what his long-term intentions were. I needed to know that things would either end or progress towards marriage. Anything else was wasting my time. To say that he was surprised and offended would be an understatement. It wasn’t to me about an immediate marriage but more about how honorable his intentions were. At any rate, he wasn’t forced into anything, nor was I. It was more about us both being on the same page as far as what our expectations were regarding our relationship. If you don’t have the same expectations, someone is going to be hurt or end up feeling screwed over or short-changed. Clear that up.
For the record, my husband didn’t even touch a boob for four months. That leads back to my original thought about women giving things up too fast. Too much is shared, too soon. Most women instinctively look for a commitment. They’re doing it backwards though. You get the commitment first, play wifey later.
You’re in luck, I’m going to drop some genius-King Soloman cutting babies in-half kind of shit on you.
But first, I’m going to take you at your word that you see yourself being with this girl for the rest of your life, and that your problem here is with her dropping an ultimatum on you, and that you’re concerned that she wants a wedding more than she wants a marriage. If this is really your problem, then I have the solution, but you have to committ 100%.
Trust me, I’m one of the first ones to say that the institution of marriage is legally a terrible deal for men in this country. However, there are still successful marriages out there, good wives and good husbands (who never get assraped by the legal system). I would never rule out marriage for myself (though I do see it as highly unlikely), and I think it would be a mistake for you to do so.
So here’s the choice you give her, if she wants to marry you, you’ll take her to the justice of the peace tommorrow, tie the knot, and buy the gold bands that makes her your property (and vice versa), but no fancy wedding, and no diamond, ever. Or, you’ll give her the diamond and the bridezilla wedding, but she has to wait two years. If she ops for the diamond and the bridezilla wedding, I’d bail. But if she ops for the J O P, you’d be a fool not to keep her.
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
Just a random thought after reading this thread – It seems that an abundance of modern women are not familiar with the phrase Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free. They rush into playing house to show their love interest what a great catch they are and, in turn, take away the man’s incentive to make a commitment. After all, why would he when he’s already reaping all of the benefits?
My own situation was a little different from yours but at the point that I knew I had feelings for my now husband, I approached a conversation about what his long-term intentions were. I needed to know that things would either end or progress towards marriage. Anything else was wasting my time. To say that he was surprised and offended would be an understatement. It wasn’t to me about an immediate marriage but more about how honorable his intentions were. At any rate, he wasn’t forced into anything, nor was I. It was more about us both being on the same page as far as what our expectations were regarding our relationship. If you don’t have the same expectations, someone is going to be hurt or end up feeling screwed over or short-changed. Clear that up.
For the record, my husband didn’t even touch a boob for four months. That leads back to my original thought about women giving things up too fast. Too much is shared, too soon. Most women instinctively look for a commitment. They’re doing it backwards though. You get the commitment first, play wifey later.[/quote]
[quote]dirtman wrote:
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
[quote]dirtman wrote:
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
[quote]dirtman wrote:
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
[quote]dirtman wrote:
Lemme simplify this for you op
If she really loves you. She will accept you for who and what you are. And how long it takes for you to make up your mind about things. She will take you any way she can get you. Love is patient and blind.
You are pretty much already married its just a legal paper and ceremony. By law she can take half already.
If she is pressuring you into a life changing choice be suspicious as to her motives. Something is tugging at her because its a choice you both need to make. Not one putting the squeeze on the other. This is unfair and not loving at all.
This is a life time decision it can be made at any point in your life. [/quote]
Re: #2 - Completely wrong. She cannot take legally take half of his stuff now.[/quote]
It is in Canada …once you live with a women in residence in a relationship she can take half of your possessions.
http://www.springtideresources.org/resource/fact-sheet-property-division[/quote]
BTW, did you even read the link you posted?
[i]Common-law relationships are not considered partnerships by the law in the same way as marriages are, and there is no automatic right to an equal sharing of the property.
Generally speaking, at the end of a common-law relationship, people leave with what they brought in plus whatever they can prove they bought while they were together.
There is no special protection for the “matrimonial home” as there is for married couples and, if it is registered in the man’s name only, the woman has no automatic right to remain in it and cannot get an “exclusive possession” order.
In a common-law relationship, the spouse who does not own the property can seek a share of its value by demonstrating to the court her contributions to its value.[/i]
-----------------------------------------------------[/quote]
[i]
In a common-law relationship, the spouse who does not own the property can seek a share of its value by demonstrating to the court her contributions to its value.
This could be a financial contribution such as paying for utilities, renovations to the home or family vacations. It could also be non-financial such as remaining at home to raise their children and run the household.
Either of these contributions can give her right to a share of the family property but she will have to go to court to fight for it.[/i]
I am sure she can demonstrate that. All women can if she is paying rent utils etc gone into debt while together …student/car loans etc.[/quote]
That’s a far cry from a presumption that she gets half of everything.[/quote]
I am sure a lawyer could make it half of everything including money and investments…specially gained during the relationship.
Have you ever been through a legal separation?
[/quote]
EDIT:
This is all irrelevant anyway since the OP lives in California, not Canada.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
An engagement is not a marriage. All she’s asking at this point is a promise to get married later. She probably wants to show her friends/sister she’s not a fool. And she needs to convince herself. Until marriage actually occurs, nothing is final. It’s tantamount to the negotiations that lead up to contractual obligations. Until a contract is signed, you’ve really got nothing but an idea of what the other party intends to commit to.[/quote]
What contract?
Marriage in such a climate basically means signing over your life.
What does the man get out of this?
I call such terms “unconditional surrender”. [/quote]
My point is that if OP gets engaged, and subsequently does his research, along with plenty of soul searching, and decides marriage is not for him, then no harm done. He takes the ring back, they split their assets up as they see fit, yell at each other a bunch, and move on. My point relates to what action he should take now. I’m actually not suggesting that marriage is the right move. I’m saying he should offer a ring in the VERY near future, or let her go, given what he has said about her feelings on the issue.[/quote]
Small point of consideration here…
In California, engagement rings are considered conditional gifts given in contemplation of marriage. If there is a dispute over the ring the court takes into consideration the circumstances of the breakup. This means if he calls off the wedding she will likely be able to keep the ring.
Just food for thought OP before you go out and purchase a few-thousand-dollar rock thinking it will buy you some more time.