Girlfriend Wants to Get Married, Dilemma

csulli · December 2, 2012, 6:04pm

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

While for the most part it appeared to work on the surface, certain fundamentals between us came to light over time. And ultimately, we decided it really wasn’t going to work and ended things.

But I’m 99% sure we wouldn’t have known that if we hadn’t spent a good 2 years cohabitating and trying to make it work. In fact, if it were purely due to “love”, we’d still be together. We ended it because the other stuff just wasn’t working.[/quote]

LoRez, respectfully, you aren’t 99% sure of anything, because you did not marry before cohabitation. If you had waited to do this and married the girl, particularly if children had entered the picture, you both may have found that you could have become far more compatible with each other than either of you had ever expected. Your outlook changes when you are truly 100% committed. [/quote]

You’re a smart man Cortes, but I must say, my experience has been the exact opposite of what you’re saying.

Cortes · December 2, 2012, 7:07pm

[quote]LoRez wrote:

We looked at marriage as 100% commitment. It wasn’t something you backed out of. And we reached a point where both of us saw that it would take a lot of counseling and serious change before it would be happy and successful. We might get married, but we weren’t ready yet.

[/quote]

There was a lot to your post and I appreciate your taking the time to explain, and I want to reply to all of it as well as a lot of other posts here but it is nearly 4am here now and I need to get some sleep.

I wanted to isolate this one paragraph of yours, though, because it illustrates perfectly what I am attempting to convey here.

You looked at it from the outside in. That’s my point. Like a bungee jumper about to take his first jump, scared shitless, things look and are different from that other side. You can never know if it would have worked, because you decided not to marry. Similarly, many couples who are married eject from the contract too soon, before honestly exhausting all avenues. Avenues that usually are not available to self-absorbed, people unwilling to acknowledge their own guilt or be truly honest with themselves about their role in the matter. Do you believe that roughly half of all people who decide to marry are fundamentally incompatible?

Jackie_Jacked · December 2, 2012, 8:00pm

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
There are always the exceptions.[/quote]

One of the most annoying things about posting on PWI is the near constant need to repeat this phrase. I see things aren’t that much different in the other forums. I always naively think my inclusion of words like “generally,” “usually,” typically," and related phrases will be clear enough without my having to repeatedly defend myself against outlier examples and situations I was not suggesting. [/quote]

That is the truth although I see it in the get a life forum also, albeit to a lesser degree. I will often use terms such as general or typically or, taking it even one step further, relate it to my OWN personal experience and there is always someone there to tell you how wrong you are that that’s not how it was with them. All of a sudden you’re being stoned because somebody got defensive. Generally means MOST of the time, not ALL of the time.

Another thing I’d like to mention, and I know that you’ve probably noted this as well, is how many posts there are validating divorce as a viable solution but there are so few posts that recognize some special things that should be shared between a husband and wife.

Jackie_Jacked · December 2, 2012, 8:16pm

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
Where does this come from? If you select a woman who has no education, no proven work ethic, and no career experience, you’re probably right. But that’s a “buyer beware” issue. I consider my greatest commodity to be my brain. I’m not of the ilk that believes women should “hold out” to get a man or to get what she wants. IMO, that attitude demeans a woman’s value and suggests she’s not a sexual creature herself.
[/quote]

Say what??? No education, no work ethic and no career experience? Pretty sure that more often than not the uneducated woman would be more prone to casual sex. The more education that a woman has, GENERALLY, the more she would realize that her sexuality is only part of what she has to offer a man. At least those have been my own observations.

Also, how is random sex not demeaning to anyone but saving if for someone special is? That just doesn’t even compute to me.

Anyhow, I don’t really care who had sex before they got married as I’ve said before. Everyone is entitled to make their own decisions and reap the benefits or reap the consequences.

LoRez · December 3, 2012, 4:36pm

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

We looked at marriage as 100% commitment. It wasn’t something you backed out of. And we reached a point where both of us saw that it would take a lot of counseling and serious change before it would be happy and successful. We might get married, but we weren’t ready yet.

[/quote]

There was a lot to your post and I appreciate your taking the time to explain, and I want to reply to all of it as well as a lot of other posts here but it is nearly 4am here now and I need to get some sleep.

I wanted to isolate this one paragraph of yours, though, because it illustrates perfectly what I am attempting to convey here.

You looked at it from the outside in. That’s my point. Like a bungee jumper about to take his first jump, scared shitless, things look and are different from that other side. You can never know if it would have worked, because you decided not to marry. Similarly, many couples who are married eject from the contract too soon, before honestly exhausting all avenues. Avenues that usually are not available to self-absorbed, people unwilling to acknowledge their own guilt or be truly honest with themselves about their role in the matter. Do you believe that roughly half of all people who decide to marry are fundamentally incompatible?[/quote]

That’s a very good point (the bolded part). I would say it’s probably true that roughly half the people who decide to marry just aren’t ready to exhaust those options. Well, ok, that’s kind of obvious, because they didn’t.

They might actually be very compatible, but they get in their own way in the relationship. I want to say “their ego gets in the way”, but it’s more than that. It’s stuff like “well, this is really what I want, but I’m not sure how he/she will react, and I’m not sure I really want to admit all of that”. Guilt, trust, honesty with yourself, honesty with each other. I would say that most marriages fail mostly because they’re just not ready from a personal development standpoint (i.e., maturity), rather than due to incompatibility.

kpsnap · December 2, 2012, 11:40pm

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
Where does this come from? If you select a woman who has no education, no proven work ethic, and no career experience, you’re probably right. But that’s a “buyer beware” issue. I consider my greatest commodity to be my brain. I’m not of the ilk that believes women should “hold out” to get a man or to get what she wants. IMO, that attitude demeans a woman’s value and suggests she’s not a sexual creature herself.
[/quote]

Say what??? No education, no work ethic and no career experience? Pretty sure that more often than not the uneducated woman would be more prone to casual sex. The more education that a woman has, GENERALLY, the more she would realize that her sexuality is only part of what she has to offer a man. At least those have been my own observations.
[/quote]

Ahh, I didn’t express myself well. I was trying to address the fact that men say women bleed them dry financially. I was merely suggesting that if they choose educated women who have a successful track record in supporting themselves, this shouldn’t be an issue. I wasn’t addressing sexuality, but my post clearly doesn’t state that.

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
Also, how is random sex not demeaning to anyone but saving if for someone special is? That just doesn’t even compute to me.
[/quote]
I understand your position here as well. If a woman wants to “save” herself for marriage, that’s her choice. I’m just expressing my opinion that married life offers enough unknowns and minimizing those might maximize the possibility of marital success.

EmilyQ · December 3, 2012, 1:46am

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Em, I think it would behoove you to reconsider whether you really are a “feminist” or if it’s just something in vogue to say.[/quote]

Oh, I definitely am a feminist. I’m adaptable and would probably thrive under most any system, but not all women are like me. I think there should be options and protections for women who can’t or don’t want to please a man in order to live well. That my particular personality and leanings would be workable under a more traditional system does not make that system the right one for everyone.

Too, I appreciate so much the things Cortes has noted that Japanese women enjoy in Western men. Thanks feminism! I don’t feel myself in competition with men, and certainly not in my intimate relationships. I prefer to be beloved. I do like feeling like a partner, though.

Lastly, I work. I don’t want to be disadvantaged by my gender in that arena.

My point in posting a lot of what I do is that I AM feminist, but am also feminine and like masculine men. There are a lot of women out there just like me. Not trying to emasculate, not trying to compete, not following any agenda at all beyond finding someone compatible to love and build a home with.

You don’t hear much from them because they’re generally content. Similar to the people who divorce well. There’s not a lot of motivation to write giant screeds on “meh, it kinda sucked, but we both tried to be reasonable and now we’re friends-ish.”

imhungry · December 3, 2012, 2:31am

EmilyQ · December 3, 2012, 2:43am

Is that it, IH? The 5 essentials?

imhungry · December 3, 2012, 3:55am

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Is that it, IH? The 5 essentials? [/quote]

In a very basic sense… maybe.

Replace 1 and 3 with “Respect”, to make the list a little better.

I will say this, though… I don’t know shit about women as a gender… or guys, for that matter. I’ve always focused my attention to “figuring out” the woman i’m interested in… that’s it. My life is complicated enough, without trying to figure out the “whys” and “hows” of what makes women tick. Plus, it’s more fun to sometimes just let life happen. The laws of attraction are that there aren’t always a rhyme or reason you find a person attractive. You could put 10 people in a room that on paper you’re “compatible” with; but, instead are drawn to someone who doesn’t fit your “type”. It happens all the time.

I’ve been through quite a few relationships in my time, lasting anywhere from weeks to one lasting ten years. Marriage was talked about with some of them to certain degrees, but never to the point of buying a ring. Hell, I could barely spend a week straight with anyone, no less live with. The overall compatibility wasn’t there.

When Greeny and I spoke and finally met, I KNEW she was the one I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. I couldn’t get her ass moved into my place soon enough. We tried to be, and were (to a certain extent) realistic/rational, but we went forward with the whole nine, anyway. She moved in, we got married, then bought her an engagement ring. We’re going on a 12 day cruise to Alaska in June for our honeymoon…

Anyway… The difference between those relationships and Greeny, are like day and night. It just works without a lot of WORK being done. It’s ridiculously easy for the most part. It’s not perfect by any means… but, I know without a doubt that it’s the best and smartest decision I made … probably, ever.

There’s nothing wrong with being single, as marriage isn’t for everyone.

Sorry… I was on a roll…

Grneyes · December 3, 2012, 4:09am

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Em, I think it would behoove you to reconsider whether you really are a “feminist” or if it’s just something in vogue to say.[/quote]

Oh, I definitely am a feminist. I’m adaptable and would probably thrive under most any system, but not all women are like me. I think there should be options and protections for women who can’t or don’t want to please a man in order to live well. That my particular personality and leanings would be workable under a more traditional system does not make that system the right one for everyone.

Too, I appreciate so much the things Cortes has noted that Japanese women enjoy in Western men. Thanks feminism! I don’t feel myself in competition with men, and certainly not in my intimate relationships. I prefer to be beloved. I do like feeling like a partner, though.

Lastly, I work. I don’t want to be disadvantaged by my gender in that arena.

My point in posting a lot of what I do is that I AM feminist, but am also feminine and like masculine men. There are a lot of women out there just like me. Not trying to emasculate, not trying to compete, not following any agenda at all beyond finding someone compatible to love and build a home with.

You don’t hear much from them because they’re generally content. Similar to the people who divorce well. There’s not a lot of motivation to write giant screeds on “meh, it kinda sucked, but we both tried to be reasonable and now we’re friends-ish.”

[/quote]

I, too, am a feminist, but not in all things. I believe in work equality, pay equity, political equality, blah blah blah. But I also believe in times of crisis, women and children first, please. I believe in the pic IH posted. Shit, I’m the one who showed it to him after seeing it on a fave BDSM author’s FB page. I also believe in very traditional, old-fashioned ideas like dress codes and proper manners and etiquette. I don’t believe in short dresses for bridesmaids. I follow the “no white shoes before Memorial Day or after Labor Day” rule. I am a snob. I’m a food snob, a clothing snob, a hotel snob (if you can’t afford “my” hotel, you don’t belong in my hotel was a fave saying when I worked in hotels), etc. Some how, some way, I found a guy who wanted me despite all this stuff. If I hadn’t, oh well, no big deal. I think people see “feminist” and think bra-burning, penis-hating, buzz-cut wearing butch women. We’re not.

imhungry · December 3, 2012, 4:12am

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Is that it, IH? The 5 essentials? [/quote]

In a very basic sense… maybe.

Replace 1 and 3 with “Respect”, to make the list a little better.

I will say this, though… I don’t know shit about women as a gender… or guys, for that matter. I’ve always focused my attention to “figuring out” the woman i’m interested in… that’s it. My life is complicated enough, without trying to figure out the “whys” and “hows” of what makes women tick. Plus, it’s more fun to sometimes just let life happen. The laws of attraction are that there aren’t always a rhyme or reason you find a person attractive. You could put 10 people in a room that on paper you’re “compatible” with; but, instead are drawn to someone who doesn’t fit your “type”. It happens all the time.

I’ve been through quite a few relationships in my time, lasting anywhere from weeks to one lasting ten years. Marriage was talked about with some of them to certain degrees, but never to the point of buying a ring. Hell, I could barely spend a week straight with anyone, no less live with. The overall compatibility wasn’t there.

When Greeny and I spoke and finally met, I KNEW she was the one I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. I couldn’t get her ass moved into my place soon enough. We tried to be, and were (to a certain extent) realistic/rational, but we went forward with the whole nine, anyway. She moved in, we got married, then bought her an engagement ring. We’re going on a 12 day cruise to Alaska in June for our honeymoon…

Anyway… The difference between those relationships and Greeny, are like day and night. It just works without a lot of WORK being done. It’s ridiculously easy for the most part. It’s not perfect by any means… but, I know without a doubt that it’s the best and smartest decision I made … probably, ever.

There’s nothing wrong with being single, as marriage isn’t for everyone.

Sorry… I was on a roll… :|[/quote]
Ha! Without a doubt the longest post I’ve ever seen from you.

Almost makes me think that you’re happily married.
[/quote]
DR;TL

imhungry · December 3, 2012, 5:09am