Girlfriend Wants to Get Married, Dilemma

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
The most important part of marriage is that it is (supposed to be) permanent. The permanence of that bond is meant to act as a bulwark against caprice and to ensure fidelity, stability and respect. [/quote]

I agree wholeheartedly. But I believe it makes sense to have as much information about and experience with a potential partner before making that commitment. Knowing whether you are sexually compatible and enjoy each other’s company day in and day out are huge factors. Leaving those to the unknown until after the marriage vows are taken seems like an egregious oversight to me.[/quote]

So I have learned that marriage is about sexual compatibility and getting along with your partner.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
If more women would hold certain things as sacred, if nothing else not live together before matrimony, it would go a long way toward creating a more sound, lasting bond between her and her man after they finally did marry. [/quote]

There are divorces that could have been prevented had a couple moved in together beforehand. Two people who have no business getting married may not figure that out without living together first.[/quote]

But on the whole, the hypothesis that people should “try” marriage on before getting married doesn’t hold up.

Sure, I understand there are a ton of different factors involved, but on the whole, over the past 40 or 50 years, we’ve seen a steady increase in both promiscuous behavior and couples deciding to move in together at the slightest indication their relationship will last beyond its initial one night stand. No, correlation is not causation, but I find it quite the coinky-dink that it just so happens that in that same time, divorce rates have been in a flaming tailspin with no indication in sight that the pilots will be able to pull the nose up and get control. [/quote]

I don’t know why an increase in divorce is immediately considered a bad thing. Many people make mistakes and are with the wrong people. Or one person changes but the other doesn’t. They should get divorced and find someone they are going be happy with.[/quote]

I’m old fashioned. I have this weird notion that intact families raising their own children to adulthood contributes to the overall health and stability of society.

I know, the stuffy, old, smells of mothballs.[/quote]

I think it’s more important that children have at least one parent in a healthy and loving relationship than to have both parents together but hating and resenting each other and staying together “for the kids.” What contributes to the overall health and stability of society is loving parental relationships that serve as positive examples for children. Dysfunctional parents do not satisfy this need. The dysfunctional behaviors become engrained in the children and they are more than likely to repeat the mistakes the parents made.

[quote]LoRez wrote:

While for the most part it appeared to work on the surface, certain fundamentals between us came to light over time. And ultimately, we decided it really wasn’t going to work and ended things.

But I’m 99% sure we wouldn’t have known that if we hadn’t spent a good 2 years cohabitating and trying to make it work. In fact, if it were purely due to “love”, we’d still be together. We ended it because the other stuff just wasn’t working.[/quote]

LoRez, respectfully, you aren’t 99% sure of anything, because you did not marry before cohabitation. If you had waited to do this and married the girl, particularly if children had entered the picture, you both may have found that you could have become far more compatible with each other than either of you had ever expected. Your outlook changes when you are truly 100% committed.

[quote]NAUn wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
If more women would hold certain things as sacred, if nothing else not live together before matrimony, it would go a long way toward creating a more sound, lasting bond between her and her man after they finally did marry. [/quote]

There are divorces that could have been prevented had a couple moved in together beforehand. Two people who have no business getting married may not figure that out without living together first.[/quote]

But on the whole, the hypothesis that people should “try” marriage on before getting married doesn’t hold up.

Sure, I understand there are a ton of different factors involved, but on the whole, over the past 40 or 50 years, we’ve seen a steady increase in both promiscuous behavior and couples deciding to move in together at the slightest indication their relationship will last beyond its initial one night stand. No, correlation is not causation, but I find it quite the coinky-dink that it just so happens that in that same time, divorce rates have been in a flaming tailspin with no indication in sight that the pilots will be able to pull the nose up and get control. [/quote]

I don’t know why an increase in divorce is immediately considered a bad thing. Many people make mistakes and are with the wrong people. Or one person changes but the other doesn’t. They should get divorced and find someone they are going be happy with.[/quote]

I’m old fashioned. I have this weird notion that intact families raising their own children to adulthood contributes to the overall health and stability of society.

I know, the stuffy, old, smells of mothballs.[/quote]

I think it’s more important that children have at least one parent in a healthy and loving relationship than to have both parents together but hating and resenting each other and staying together “for the kids.” What contributes to the overall health and stability of society is loving parental relationships that serve as positive examples for children. Dysfunctional parents do not satisfy this need. The dysfunctional behaviors become engrained in the children and they are more than likely to repeat the mistakes the parents made.[/quote]

If you think parents magically become angels after divorce, you are dreaming. Parents who are dysfunctional will be so in or out of marriage, and will pass those traits down regardless. Often this happens in an even more egregious form, with each parent using the child as leverage against the other.

This is another one of those memes that gets repeated every time this argument comes up.

I think it’s more important for parents not to act like selfish assholes and think about the importance of being good role models to their kids.

We ask kids who can’t stand each other to get along and they manage to do so. Why can’t adults do the same for someone as important as their own children?

This is all related to the ever-increasing trend toward selfishness masquerading as I-gotta-be-me Western individualism. Society would be well served by people attempting to overcome their difficulties rather than bailing at the first bump in the road.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

While for the most part it appeared to work on the surface, certain fundamentals between us came to light over time. And ultimately, we decided it really wasn’t going to work and ended things.

But I’m 99% sure we wouldn’t have known that if we hadn’t spent a good 2 years cohabitating and trying to make it work. In fact, if it were purely due to “love”, we’d still be together. We ended it because the other stuff just wasn’t working.[/quote]

LoRez, respectfully, you aren’t 99% sure of anything, because you did not marry before cohabitation. If you had waited to do this and married the girl, particularly if children had entered the picture, you both may have found that you could have become far more compatible with each other than either of you had ever expected. Your outlook changes when you are truly 100% committed. [/quote]

"Sometimes it works though.

Sometimes it is as simple as “Imagine if you were the person you wanted to be. What would that person do in this same situation? Got it? Now do that.” Instead of relying on a culturally predefined role model, you rely on your imagination to construct your own personalized model, and then you try to live that life. You do it enough, it starts to feel natural, and you slowly transform into that person.

Definitely not something with a guaranteed success rate, but that approach seems to work far more often than not."

Wise words. (^_~)

So the whole issue of whether it is worse to live together before marriage has nothing to do with the actual action of living together. It’s just that a mindset of “trying it out” often (but not always) goes along with a mindset that marriage doesn’t have to be a lifelong commitment. It’s a generalization, but it’s the same reason that second, third, and fourth marriages have increasing likelihoods of ending in divorce.

Divorce rate for first marriage - 41%
Second marriage - 60%
Third marriage - 73%

To the OP, 5 years is long enough to know whether you want to marry someone. I understand wanting to get settled as just a regular adult before wanting to jump into marriage, but I can guarantee that she is getting pressure from her family as to why it hasn’t happened yet. Let’s face it, 5 years is basically the limit for how long you can date someone before it starts to get weird.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

While for the most part it appeared to work on the surface, certain fundamentals between us came to light over time. And ultimately, we decided it really wasn’t going to work and ended things.

But I’m 99% sure we wouldn’t have known that if we hadn’t spent a good 2 years cohabitating and trying to make it work. In fact, if it were purely due to “love”, we’d still be together. We ended it because the other stuff just wasn’t working.[/quote]

LoRez, respectfully, you aren’t 99% sure of anything, because you did not marry before cohabitation. If you had waited to do this and married the girl, particularly if children had entered the picture, you both may have found that you could have become far more compatible with each other than either of you had ever expected. Your outlook changes when you are truly 100% committed. [/quote]

[quote]Cortes wrote:

Think about how the entire PUA psychological structure rests on a bedrock of the eternal human truth of the scarcity principle.

[/quote]

That is not all of it, but a cornerstone.

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
Wow way to overcomplicate things. For the record I slept with my guy on day one and here we are almost 20 years later. He’s European though so maybe that makes it different… Or maybe all this gaming nonsense is for fools destined to fail anyhow.

I cannot for the life of me fathom how holding out on sex that I want to gain power is anything more that setting myself and my guy up for a life of deception and bullshit.

Also, if there are enough exceptions, your rules are useless.[/quote]

What if he hit your attraction triggers hard and never slipped.

Then you are not the exception, your experience is perfectly predictable if certain conditions are met.

You have this odd notion of taking someones elses paradigm, filtering it through yours and call it lacking.

Maybe your filters are lacking, because if he hit the sweet spot, I am not surprised at all.

[/quote]

Maybe he did and maybe he didn’t…that’s not my point. My point is that withholding sex to make myself more attractive for long term mate is moronic. The only time that would be effective strategy is if I’m with a scheming gaming douchebag with old fashioned misogynistic tendencies whom I should be looking to eliminate from my life, not try to get to propose lol.

Again this is over complicating things. He was attractive to me, I was attractive to him, so we humped and became best friends and stuck together. “hit my attraction triggers…” sorry but LOL you can rename human nature and sexual attraction as many times as you like that doesn’t make it a strategy that you suddenly have control over or a formula for success. Or you wouldn’t be here telling us how much women suck but you have them figured, because you’d be curled up with one instead.
[/quote]

You are still not getting it, are you?

IF I CAN RENAME IT, I CAN SEE IT.

Most men cant and you know that.

[quote]jewishthunder wrote:
Hey so my girlfriend of 5 years whom I love very much is really pushing to get married. Yesterday. That kind of pressure. Keep in mind we are both 24. Have had some ups and downs in our relationship. We share a dog, apartment and a lot of other random shit. Not that that really matters in this.

To those who have been in the situation of not wanting to get married, what’s the play here. It has gotten to the point of an ultimatum almost of marry her or be single.

I just don’t want to get married right now. It’s not her, it’s just the activity. I don’t wanna.

TL:DR GF of 5 years wants to get married ASAP, I don’t. Thoughts?[/quote]

Someone who ask relationship advices on a bodybuilding website called Testosterone Nation definitely deserves to get married.

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]jewishthunder wrote:
Hey so my girlfriend of 5 years whom I love very much is really pushing to get married. Yesterday. That kind of pressure. Keep in mind we are both 24. Have had some ups and downs in our relationship. We share a dog, apartment and a lot of other random shit. Not that that really matters in this.

To those who have been in the situation of not wanting to get married, what’s the play here. It has gotten to the point of an ultimatum almost of marry her or be single.

I just don’t want to get married right now. It’s not her, it’s just the activity. I don’t wanna.

TL:DR GF of 5 years wants to get married ASAP, I don’t. Thoughts?[/quote]

Someone who ask relationship advices on a bodybuilding website called Testosterone Nation definitely deserves to get married.

[/quote]

Well, if he wanted a distinctly male perspective, where else would he go to?

Now, given recent developments he might be wrong in that reasoning, but can you blame him?

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]jewishthunder wrote:
Hey so my girlfriend of 5 years whom I love very much is really pushing to get married. Yesterday. That kind of pressure. Keep in mind we are both 24. Have had some ups and downs in our relationship. We share a dog, apartment and a lot of other random shit. Not that that really matters in this.

To those who have been in the situation of not wanting to get married, what’s the play here. It has gotten to the point of an ultimatum almost of marry her or be single.

I just don’t want to get married right now. It’s not her, it’s just the activity. I don’t wanna.

TL:DR GF of 5 years wants to get married ASAP, I don’t. Thoughts?[/quote]

Someone who ask relationship advices on a bodybuilding website called Testosterone Nation definitely deserves to get married.

[/quote]

Well, if he wanted a distinctly male perspective, where else would he go to?

Now, given recent developments he might be wrong in that reasoning, but can you blame him?

[/quote]

well, 11 pages and no one remembered him the Golden Rule (namely : “Just look at her mom !”)
So much for the distinctly male perspective.

But i see your point. It’s not really his fault.

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]jewishthunder wrote:
Hey so my girlfriend of 5 years whom I love very much is really pushing to get married. Yesterday. That kind of pressure. Keep in mind we are both 24. Have had some ups and downs in our relationship. We share a dog, apartment and a lot of other random shit. Not that that really matters in this.

To those who have been in the situation of not wanting to get married, what’s the play here. It has gotten to the point of an ultimatum almost of marry her or be single.

I just don’t want to get married right now. It’s not her, it’s just the activity. I don’t wanna.

TL:DR GF of 5 years wants to get married ASAP, I don’t. Thoughts?[/quote]

Someone who ask relationship advices on a bodybuilding website called Testosterone Nation definitely deserves to get married.

[/quote]

Well, if he wanted a distinctly male perspective, where else would he go to?

Now, given recent developments he might be wrong in that reasoning, but can you blame him?

[/quote]

The Golden Rule : “Just look at her mom !”

[/quote]

^^^^

The father of one of my ex-girlfriends told me exactly that the first time we met.

Happened at the end of the dinner.
Her wife was in the kitchen.
He abruptly said “Son, are you really sure you want to date my daughter ?”
Me : “Huh ? yes…why ?”
He : “Well, just look at her mom !”.
Thanksfully, my gf was extremely quick to answer “Dad-dy ! I will tell her !”, so i did not had to figure out how to react.
He laughed and, looking right at me, he added : “If you choose to stick with her regardless, i have hours of fishing videos that you and me could watch together”.

The guy knew a lot about deterrence.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Why did you move in with her beforehand? [/quote]

Because we discussed our future together and both had visions of us getting married. I was over at her place all the time anyway so it didn’t make sense for her to have a mortgage and me to have rent when my place was largely uninhabited. But we fully discussed the probability of marriage prior to me moving in.

james
[/quote]

Why didn’t you just get married?[/quote]

If we eloped then we would have gone that route. But weddings require planning and money. So we picked a date in the fall, took what I would have used for rent and applied that money towards the wedding.

I don’t think you need to live with someone to know if you’re compatible with them. I mean what is compatibility but the ability to not get annoyed by the little things that your partner does? Spend the night a bunch of times and you quickly learn the other person’s quirks.

james

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
The most important part of marriage is that it is (supposed to be) permanent. The permanence of that bond is meant to act as a bulwark against caprice and to ensure fidelity, stability and respect. [/quote]

I agree wholeheartedly. But I believe it makes sense to have as much information about and experience with a potential partner before making that commitment. Knowing whether you are sexually compatible and enjoy each other’s company day in and day out are huge factors. Leaving those to the unknown until after the marriage vows are taken seems like an egregious oversight to me.[/quote]

So I have learned that marriage is about sexual compatibility and getting along with your partner. [/quote]

To some extent yes but that’s not all. Marriages are also a lot of work and it’s about being committed to putting in that work. Let’s not forget that every relationship is about sexual compatibility, getting along with them, and working through things.

james

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Women who agree to do everything that marriage promises leave no psychological incentive for a man to commit to her thereafter, particularly given the spectacularly bad deal men get relative to women. [/quote]

Where does this come from? If you select a woman who has no education, no proven work ethic, and no career experience, you’re probably right. But that’s a “buyer beware” issue. I consider my greatest commodity to be my brain. I’m not of the ilk that believes women should “hold out” to get a man or to get what she wants. IMO, that attitude demeans a woman’s value and suggests she’s not a sexual creature herself.

I should mention that I have no problem with other people making different choices. Whether not living together or remaining virgins until after marriage. Just don’t complain down the road that you don’t like the present you got since you weren’t allowed to see what it was before you bought it.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

So I have learned that marriage is about sexual compatibility and getting along with your partner. [/quote]

I said they are huge factors. And I stand by that. A shared sense of values and a good intellectual match are also important components.

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Why did you move in with her beforehand? [/quote]

Because we discussed our future together and both had visions of us getting married. I was over at her place all the time anyway so it didn’t make sense for her to have a mortgage and me to have rent when my place was largely uninhabited. But we fully discussed the probability of marriage prior to me moving in.

james
[/quote]

Why didn’t you just get married?[/quote]

If we eloped then we would have gone that route. But weddings require planning and money. So we picked a date in the fall, took what I would have used for rent and applied that money towards the wedding.

I don’t think you need to live with someone to know if you’re compatible with them.

james
[/quote]

So, in other words, you were already married in spirit. You saw that union, you weren’t just imagining that union.
You were already 100% committed to each other and you, the male, took the lead in SHOWING THROUGH tangible action that you were already bound to each other and were working towards a common goal to announce to the world what you already knew intimately between the two of you?

You weren’t trying imagine the sort of husband you though you should be, you weren’t relying on your imagination to construct your own personalized model of a man and how he acts in a relationship with a woman he likes?

You shagged her, you liked her and you felt moved in your groins to be pro active to keep the flow of that relationship going.

That sounds simple, like love acts, to me.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

While for the most part it appeared to work on the surface, certain fundamentals between us came to light over time. And ultimately, we decided it really wasn’t going to work and ended things.

But I’m 99% sure we wouldn’t have known that if we hadn’t spent a good 2 years cohabitating and trying to make it work. In fact, if it were purely due to “love”, we’d still be together. We ended it because the other stuff just wasn’t working.[/quote]

LoRez, respectfully, you aren’t 99% sure of anything, because you did not marry before cohabitation. If you had waited to do this and married the girl, particularly if children had entered the picture, you both may have found that you could have become far more compatible with each other than either of you had ever expected. Your outlook changes when you are truly 100% committed. [/quote]

There were no kids, but we were committed enough to resolving our issues that we both ended up working with therapists on an individual basis (for over a year), and also attempted couples/marriage counseling. And since we weren’t married, we both paid out of pocket. Ending things wasn’t taken lightly by any means.

It really came down to fundamentally different value systems.

For instance, we both wanted a sense of stability in the relationship. For me, I needed to know she was going to be there when I really needed her. I was there for her that way, but she wasn’t there for me. For her, she needed to know that I was going to be consistent, routine, regular. She was giving me that, but I didn’t/couldn’t give her that in return.

So she perceived that she couldn’t rely on me, because in everyday normal life, I wasn’t consistent enough for her (e.g., what time I came home from work; or whether I checked the mail every day). At the same time, if anything important needed to happen, I always pulled through… and showed her that I was reliable.

Sometimes these differences bordered on the ridiculous. We agreed to alternate meals, her one night, me the next. Usually she’d cook. Sometimes I’d cook. Sometimes I’d take her out. Her taste in food was very restrictive though, and she was very vague about what she wanted, so most of the food I’d cook for her she didn’t really like. We started eating out more often. After awhile, she started complaining that I never cooked for her anymore. I explained why, then pointed her to a cookbook and asked her to give me a list of recipes she’d be ok with me making for her. But she refused. I held my ground. So she decided it’d be better not eat together.

I valued spending time with her; she valued being able to control me. When she realized she couldn’t, she didn’t know how to deal with it.

But even that story is too biased. She probably has a perfectly legitimate point of view too.

This stuff didn’t show up until we were seeing each other daily. You can certainly say that our conflict-resolution needed some work [or, more specifically, hers did]. But the other part was that there were certain things that she valued that were at odds with things that I valued.

It was the mundane things like laundry, vacuuming, washing/emptying the dishes, cooking dinner, where these differences started to really become apparent. Could we have seen that before cohabitating? Probably, but it was that aspect that brought it to light. I know now I’d be a lot better at spotting those issues with someone new.

We looked at marriage as 100% commitment. It wasn’t something you backed out of. And we reached a point where both of us saw that it would take a lot of counseling and serious change before it would be happy and successful. We might get married, but we weren’t ready yet.

We also looked at it as a prerequisite to having kids. From a purely biological standpoint, she wants to have kids in 3-5 years. It’s possible things might stabilize in that time, but we decided it would likely be easier to find someone else who’s more “naturally” compatible with us, value-wise.

If it weren’t for that, we’d probably still be together, working on making it work.

Sorry for the long post. I’d edit to trim it, but I don’t want to drop any of those examples.

Good posts Cortes.