Getting Started for Powerlifting

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
21

[quote]OBoile wrote:
buckeye girl wrote:
Kerley wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
Kerley wrote:
Westside

Highly disagree.

Alisa, any idea what federation you want to compete in? Raw? Single Ply? Multiply?

My best advice would be to find the meet first before you settle on a training style or system. The equipment changes things to a degree…so knowing how you are going to compete is a good starting point.

why whats wrong with training westside?

Well, she’s interested in competing raw and trains at a college rec center. Those would be the two biggest problems.

A college rec center isn’t likely to have things like bands, chains, boards and all those other fun little gimmicks that westside advocates using in training. And considering that she’s talking about competing raw, all those things that work top end strength aren’t going to be the best tools to use to build a stronger raw lifter.

About a year and a half ago, I was in the same situation the OP is in now. I went the westside route, and made little progress. If I could go back and do it all over again, I would have done 5/3/1 from the beginning and probably would have spent less time in gear.

Maxing out on singles and even triples week in and week out didn’t give me any sort of impressive strength gains. It just wasn’t enough volume. I had all the aches, pains and bruises, but little else to show for my efforts. And don’t even get me started on speed work, or the reverse hyper…

Now, before all of Louie’s ball lickers flip out, I’m not saying that westside doesn’t work, or that my program was flawless but still failed to yield results. Just that westside isn’t the be all end all program for powerlifters. Especially a raw female powerlifter that is relatively new to the game.

Alisa, glad to see another woman on here getting into powerlifting. Good luck :slight_smile:

While I tend to agree with you for the most part, I think you and some other posters have some misconceptions about what Westside is supposed to be. Westside doesn’t require bands or chains and it isn’t intended only for geared lifters. It is a template, nothing more. How you use that template depends on your goals and what equimpent is available to you.

That being said, your comments about volume, speed work (for a raw lifter) are spot on IMO. 5/3/1 (which is basically Westside, but varying ME intensity rather than varying ME exercises) seems to work well for a lot of people.[/quote]

I don’t have any misconceptions about what westside is supposed to be. When I was “training westside” I was at a gym full of former westsiders and some of the strongest men in the sport. Guys that set their records without the help of foam rollers, or blind judges.

I see people post over and over again about how westside doesn’t require this, or you don’t need that to successfully use the template, and its such bullshit. The guys that are training westside and WINNING are the guys that are 1) training AT westside and 2) using all the gimmicks. The lifters that I see being successful with this set up are guys that have already built a good base, are competing in multiply gear, and shoot a couple grams of test in their ass every week.

I’m not saying westside won’t work for a raw/amateur/natural lifter–I know guys that fit in that category and have had great success with the template. But, westside isn’t the only way to train as a powerlifter, and it doesn’t work for everyone.

22

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Wait…what?

How many raw squatters have ever come out of Westside?
[/quote]
I have no idea, but I’m sure there are many raw lifters who do follow that template.

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

5/3/1 is “basically Westside” in the same way that every other program split into upper and lower days is “basically Westside”.
[/quote]
Perhaps we are arguing semantics, but 5/3/1 still has a focus exercise (where one truley tough work set is performed) followed by assistance work. That, IMO, makes it more like Westside than many upper/lower split exercises. That is quite different than say a routine that has:
Squat 5x5 (non-ramping)
Lunge 3x10
SLDL 3x10

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
The programming is nothing alike, there is no speed work, there is no 90%+ work, no rotated exercises. If you are doing 5/3/1 correctly, you should very rarely venture above 85% of your true max. The maximal effort method by its own definition is work above 90%.
[/quote]
I said:

(which is basically Westside, but varying ME intensity rather than varying ME exercises)

As in the key difference is that there is no need to rotate exercises due to the varying intensity. Also, you certainly do get above 90% after a few cycles through the program. IIRC, the 3 day is reps at 90% and the 531 day has a single at 95%. After a few months the the lifter will have caught up to the initial 10% deduction and these will be >= 90%.

You are right, there is no speed work which is something a raw lifter doesn’t really need.

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

Doing a main lift to some degree of strain or failure followed by easier accessory work is not “Westside”…its called “training for powerlifting”.
[/quote]
5x5 isn’t like this. From what I know, Sheiko isn’t either. But again, I think this is all semantics.

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

It seems that we are arguing semantics here though, since we appear to also agree that Westside is not optimal for a raw lifter and is not for beginners or intermediates. High five![/quote]
Agreed. My main beef is with the contention that bands and chains are required for westside, or that it can only work for geared lifters. I don’t believe either of these to be true.

23

[quote]OBoile wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
Wait…what?

How many raw squatters have ever come out of Westside?

I have no idea, but I’m sure there are many raw lifters who do follow that template.
Stronghold wrote:

5/3/1 is “basically Westside” in the same way that every other program split into upper and lower days is “basically Westside”.

Perhaps we are arguing semantics, but 5/3/1 still has a focus exercise (where one truley tough work set is performed) followed by assistance work. That, IMO, makes it more like Westside than many upper/lower split exercises. That is quite different than say a routine that has:
Squat 5x5 (non-ramping)
Lunge 3x10
SLDL 3x10

Stronghold wrote:
The programming is nothing alike, there is no speed work, there is no 90%+ work, no rotated exercises. If you are doing 5/3/1 correctly, you should very rarely venture above 85% of your true max. The maximal effort method by its own definition is work above 90%.

I said:

(which is basically Westside, but varying ME intensity rather than varying ME exercises)

As in the key difference is that there is no need to rotate exercises due to the varying intensity. Also, you certainly do get above 90% after a few cycles through the program. IIRC, the 3 day is reps at 90% and the 531 day has a single at 95%. After a few months the the lifter will have caught up to the initial 10% deduction and these will be >= 90%.

You are right, there is no speed work which is something a raw lifter doesn’t really need.

Stronghold wrote:

Doing a main lift to some degree of strain or failure followed by easier accessory work is not “Westside”…its called “training for powerlifting”.

5x5 isn’t like this. From what I know, Sheiko isn’t either. But again, I think this is all semantics.
Stronghold wrote:

It seems that we are arguing semantics here though, since we appear to also agree that Westside is not optimal for a raw lifter and is not for beginners or intermediates. High five!
Agreed. My main beef is with the contention that bands and chains are required for westside, or that it can only work for geared lifters. I don’t believe either of these to be true.

[/quote]

You won’t find many successful raw lifters training Westside. Those equipped lifters that you see venturing over to raw lifting that train Westside were, for the most part, already brutally strong raw when they started training that way.

So, basically what you are saying is that 5/3/1 is like Westside except there is not speed work, no max effort work, no accommodating resistance, specialty bars, special exercises, reverse hypers, extra workouts? So it’s like Westside except nothing like it? All of those things that I’ve listed ARE Westside.

And, you seem to have missed the boat with your 5/3/1 comment. By the time a lifter has been on 5/3/1 long enough to begin catching up to his original true max, that number is no longer his true max. This is why you see lifters hitting the max they calculated their training max off of to start with for 5 reps after several months on the program. Is that number still their max? Of course not, if they hit it for 5 reps, then its ~85% of their max and therefor, is not max effort work. I thought that was kind of obvious?

24

OK, Alisa, forget about all the “westside”, “5/3/1”, and whatever else. That guy who coaches people that lift impressive weights, get in touch with him. You absolutely NEED a mentor or coach, and if this guy is the one you think would do the best job at it, work with him. Or do like another poster said, go to a meet and find someone there, that’s a good bet.

25

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
OBoile wrote:

While I tend to agree with you for the most part, I think you and some other posters have some misconceptions about what Westside is supposed to be. Westside doesn’t require bands or chains and it isn’t intended only for geared lifters. It is a template, nothing more. How you use that template depends on your goals and what equimpent is available to you.

That being said, your comments about volume, speed work (for a raw lifter) are spot on IMO. 5/3/1 (which is basically Westside, but varying ME intensity rather than varying ME exercises) seems to work well for a lot of people.

Wait…what?

How many raw squatters have ever come out of Westside?

5/3/1 is “basically Westside” in the same way that every other program split into upper and lower days is “basically Westside”. The programming is nothing alike, there is no speed work, there is no 90%+ work, no rotated exercises. If you are doing 5/3/1 correctly, you should very rarely venture above 85% of your true max. The maximal effort method by its own definition is work above 90%.

Doing a main lift to some degree of strain or failure followed by easier accessory work is not “Westside”…its called “training for powerlifting”.

It seems that we are arguing semantics here though, since we appear to also agree that Westside is not optimal for a raw lifter and is not for beginners or intermediates. High five![/quote]

I agree.

Also, the odds that a PT who only charges 40/hr can teach you to squat = slim to none.

26

Well I am not sure if I am getting off topic now cuz it seems that stronghold and buckeyegirl took it over with their opinons, but throwin my 2 cents for all that its worth-

  1. welcome to powerlifting, your gonna love it, your gonna become addicted, and your gonna love it!

  2. make sure you have good form so when you take a max effort rep, you get more weight up. I made the mistake of it, and i am still learning how to squat and bench

  3. if you can find a partner or a group to lift with. Itll help tremendosly.

  4. find a good program, I suggest 5/3/1 or maybe even sheiko if your up to it :slight_smile:

5 PULL CONVENTIONAL :stuck_out_tongue:

27

Save yourself $40 dollars on a wasted PT session from some idiot who doesn’t know what he’s talking about. PT’s are horrible, and I doubt most of them could teach you to squat.

If your back is rounding on squats, it probably means that you don’t have sufficient hip mobility to reach the depth that you’re trying to squat to without compensating for the lack of hip mobility with motion in the lumbar spine. Mike Robertson has a good description for this - imagine a tightness imbalance between the hips and lumbar spine - you have very stiff hips (probably from sitting), so you end up moving from the lumbar spine instead.

You can fix it by increasing hip mobility and lumbar stability. Look up the Essential 8 Mobility Drills on T-Nation, and look at defranco’s “Agile 8” - they’ll give you a good idea of how to improve hip mobility. Hell, you could even buy Eric Cressey’s Magnificent Mobility.
As far as lumbar stability goes - the “core” is primarily responsible for stabilizing the lumbar area. Do lots of core exercises that emphasize use of your core to stabilize as opposed to move through a range of motion (think side planks and rollouts).

Another thing that I’ve found very helpful with lumbar rounding in the squat is doing glute recruitment exercises such as glute bridges and x-band walks. Single leg work has also been very effective in ironing out unilateral imbalances.

You might want to consider taking a little bit of time off from your usual training and do a lot of remedial lifts, single leg work, hip mobility, core work, glute recruitment, etc. I’m doing exactly that right now, and I’ve made more progress towards moving properly than I ever have in my entire life.

28

Forgot to mention - read some articles by Mike Robertson, Michael Boyle, Eric Cressey, and Stuart McGill. They help a LOT, especially with the squat issues. Just do an author search for Mike Robertson, and if you’re good enough at following directions, your squat problems will likely disappear and you will be on your way to a very good squat.

29

Thank you all so much for the feedback.
Brauny, I do pull conventional.
Benway, thanks for the diagnostics, and I think you hit the nail on the head with the hip thing. I’ll work on mobility.

30

Id go westside, only because it works and its fun.

But I would also make some changes, depending on your level.

1)bench/squat 2-4 times per week
2)deadlift 1-3 times per week
3)FOLLOW THE WESTSIDE PRINCIPLES
4)Add more assisstance exercises (especially if you need more muscle)

Anyone that says they didn’t make gains on a certain program ESPECIALLY WESTSIDE simply didn’t do it right, or possibly had some sort of physical dissabilities. The template/guidelines work. You lift heavy weights, focus on your weaknesses and get stronger. There is a very, very small difference between westside and 5/3/1 or really most strength programs for that matter.

So to the OP. It doesn’t really matter which program you pick, as long as you figure out how to modify it and make it work for you. Good luck

31

Oh and one other thing that I think is helpful:

Bench narrow
Squat wide
Deadlift however you do best (but train the opposite)

32

[quote]dankid wrote:
Id go westside, only because it works and its fun.

But I would also make some changes, depending on your level.

1)bench/squat 2-4 times per week
2)deadlift 1-3 times per week
3)FOLLOW THE WESTSIDE PRINCIPLES
4)Add more assisstance exercises (especially if you need more muscle)

Anyone that says they didn’t make gains on a certain program ESPECIALLY WESTSIDE simply didn’t do it right, or possibly had some sort of physical dissabilities. The template/guidelines work. You lift heavy weights, focus on your weaknesses and get stronger. There is a very, very small difference between westside and 5/3/1 or really most strength programs for that matter.

So to the OP. It doesn’t really matter which program you pick, as long as you figure out how to modify it and make it work for you. Good luck[/quote]

And what are your lifts again?

I’m sure BG wasn’t doing it right…I mean, its not like the former Westsiders supervising her training know what they’re doing or anything. Not like she had world record holders coaching her. I’m sure a punk ass kid on a message board with a 225 lb bench would be a much more reliable source of information about what they do at Westside than a couple of guys who spent the past decade at Westside.

Dankid, the only thing funnier to me than your shitty ass lifts…is your stupendous arrogance.

33

Two things:
Dankid, so how do Louie’s balls taste?

Alisa, did you check to see if your college has a PL club or anything like that? When I decided I was interested in learning more about the sport these were the first actual people I talked to. If something like that is an option, I’d definitely go that route. It’s really cheap, and the guys are usually willing to help, especially when a girl is interested in powerlifting.

34

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
Thank you all so much for the feedback.
Brauny, I do pull conventional.
Benway, thanks for the diagnostics, and I think you hit the nail on the head with the hip thing. I’ll work on mobility.[/quote]

I disagree to an extent - in my experience only about 1 female will need dedicated dynamic-stretching type hip mobility work to every 10 men. Women have a different hip structure than men and tend to looser in general, probably the result of relaxin. Really the only trouble area for women is ankles, and perhaps thoracic spine. Of course, there will be some exceptions.

Really, most females can get a good squat with motor control work and just basic strength training.

35

If you get a trainer make sure he has a CSCS. At least then you can HOPE he knows how to squat.

At the gym I work at I’ve seen probably 20 trainers come and go over the last year and maybe 5 of them could really do AND more importantly TEACH a proper squat. Fuck, much less spot correctly. When I see trainers just standing to the side as they let their client squat over 100lbs with shit form I want to go over and slap some people.

Even with the CSCS’ers they may not know the correct way to do a PL squat, which tends to be wider than an O-lift squat.

36

[quote]BantamRunner wrote:
If you get a trainer make sure he has a CSCS. At least then you can HOPE he knows how to squat.

At the gym I work at I’ve seen probably 20 trainers come and go over the last year and maybe 5 of them could really do AND more importantly TEACH a proper squat. Fuck, much less spot correctly. When I see trainers just standing to the side as they let their client squat over 100lbs with shit form I want to go over and slap some people.

Even with the CSCS’ers they may not know the correct way to do a PL squat, which tends to be wider than an O-lift squat. [/quote]

I know plenty of guys who don’t have a CSCS cert that can teach someone to squat just fine. She should be trying to find a powerlifter to teach her. That’s easy enough too.

37

Buckeye – as I understand there is a PL club. They’re quite a bit better than me, but I’ll still try to get in touch with them; worst case scenario, they’ll say “No, you can’t train with us.” If they are willing, then I have my solution, and I’ll take their advice.

Challer – what is motor control work?

As for the trainer, I’m still debating. When I say I see him with people with “impressive” lifts, I mean like squats around 300 lbs that look pretty deep. (By my gym’s standards, that’s impressive.) I’m sure he knows something, but you’re right, it would be ideal (and cheaper) to talk to powerlifters.

As for Westside vs 5/3/1 I obviously don’t know which is better (that’s why I asked) but in favor of 5/3/1 it is true that I don’t have access to chains/boards/sleds or anything like that.

38

[quote]buckeye girl wrote:
Two things:
Dankid, so how do Louie’s balls taste?

Alisa, did you check to see if your college has a PL club or anything like that? When I decided I was interested in learning more about the sport these were the first actual people I talked to. If something like that is an option, I’d definitely go that route. It’s really cheap, and the guys are usually willing to help, especially when a girl is interested in powerlifting.[/quote]

They taste just fine. If you ever get tired of the twat you should give em a try.

Back on track here though. OP, the point I was trying to get at is that it doens’t really matter what program your on, as long as you follow a good set of guidelines. Westside and 5/3/1 are not that different really, and either one can give you really good or really poor results. Oh and westside does not NEED chains and bands at all. People that think westside is all about chains and bands obviously are misunderstanding the methods.

And as for comments of westside not being for females, this is just plain wrong. My gf is a beginner, and is doing the exact same program as me, and is making great progress using the westside methods. The only reason I could see recommending something like 5/3/1 over westside is that its a little bit easier to understand and more organized. To understand westside you’ve gotta do some reading and quite a bit of trial and error in the gym. But once you get things going, it is REALLY fun. I haven’t done 5/3/1, but will some time soon, so I dont have anything to compare it to though.

Lastly, if you do 5/3/1 you’ll probably need to make some modifications. You’ll likely be able to work out more than 3 days a week, and will need some more exercises and more volume overall. Other than that, you cant go wrong with any good program. The best thing right now, is to just get started on something and go for it. If you have concerns, start a log and get people’s opinions on what you are doing. If you are progressing in your lifts, then you cant really complain and you know you are on the right track.

Good luck!

39

[quote]AlisaV wrote:

Challer – what is motor control work?

As for the trainer, I’m still debating. When I say I see him with people with “impressive” lifts, I mean like squats around 300 lbs that look pretty deep. (By my gym’s standards, that’s impressive.) I’m sure he knows something, but you’re right, it would be ideal (and cheaper) to talk to powerlifters.

As for Westside vs 5/3/1 I obviously don’t know which is better (that’s why I asked) but in favor of 5/3/1 it is true that I don’t have access to chains/boards/sleds or anything like that. [/quote]

I’m just using motor control work as an umbrella term for training for better movement through movement. It could be as simple as doing some neutral spine drills (bird dogs for instance, but there’s tons of options here) then getting yourself some mirrors set up and just practicing your squat over and over again and as you do it trying to think about where your spine is in space. Once you’re finally comfortable with neutral spine, then take the mirrors away and have someone who knows what to look for look at your squat.

If you can consistently hold a neutral spine without visual feedback, you’ve arrived. Once you get a good feel for neutral spine and squatting in general, when you lose neutral spine, you’ll know. Lumbar flexion during squatting is not something that is an “oops” type of thing for a trained lifter.

40

FWIW, I’m a drug free lifter who has trained Westside or a variation thereof my entire PL career, both raw and equipped. Single ply at 165/181, I am 407/225/365. I am not great, but I am top 10 in the country, easy.

Fucking hell.

All this bitching about what program to use, what is best - what the fuck ever. She is a smart girl. Just do a fucking meet, and talk to people (who you respect - no internet numbers, or “self proclaimed badass by proxy of badass”) who know what they are doing. We are a friendly community in real life, and you will learn more from talking to people who can adjust you as you move than you will from people who aren’t proven in your live experience…

You get better by doing better, with better people.

Don’t worry about what people tell you to do. Meet real people - at a meet - and learn from them. You’ll be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. There is plenty of the latter here.