on a second note… whatever you think it will cost… it will cost twice as much probably more and take 3 times as long to do… probably more… if you make a list of things to do, no matter a how small they are you are only aloud to mark 2-3 things off your list every time you work on it… thats just how it is…
good info, thanks.
I’ve spent my life playing with muscle cars. I have been buying cars lately to play with in my retirement years and I am finding the best buy out there is the second generation Camaros (70-73) They are reasonably priced and the options for power are unlimited. You can build a 434 inch small block or opt for a GM crate 572. Sky’s the limit and they are fairly simple to work on. Another thing to consider is the availability of aftermarket parts. The second gen Camaros, you can buy just about every part…
Most of all be patient. As in bodybuilding it will take time to achieve perfection…DENT
[quote]Dentfixer wrote:
I’ve spent my life playing with muscle cars. I have been buying cars lately to play with in my retirement years and I am finding the best buy out there is the second generation Camaros (70-73) They are reasonably priced and the options for power are unlimited. You can build a 434 inch small block or opt for a GM crate 572. Sky’s the limit and they are fairly simple to work on. Another thing to consider is the availability of aftermarket parts. The second gen Camaros, you can buy just about every part…
Most of all be patient. As in bodybuilding it will take time to achieve perfection…DENT[/quote]
Camaros are cool, oddly enough I’ve never owned one. Most of my parts stash is Chevy related so that’s how I’m leaning. I’ll probably opt for a '68-'72 Nova. I had a '66 SS but the newer ones are easier to stuff big blocks into.
BG
[quote]ty_ty13 wrote:
on a second note… whatever you think it will cost… it will cost twice as much probably more and take 3 times as long to do… probably more… if you make a list of things to do, no matter a how small they are you are only aloud to mark 2-3 things off your list every time you work on it… thats just how it is…[/quote]
Been there done that lots of times. I’ve done engines and then put them away until I found something to toss them into. I had a 327 Chevy short block wrapped up for 3 years before the right car came along. Doing the engine little by little is the best way to do it on a budget, but do the heads and block separately so they don’t sit at the machine shop for too long.
BG
Pffff… You have it easy.
Try finding a muscle car in Europe. You’ll lay down 10 grand for a project car without an engine and a shit-ton of rust holes.
And I don’t want to import from the US since I can’t inspect the car myself.
My dream car would be either a 1970 Dodge Charger or a 1970 Chevrolet Chevelle SS. Camaro SS from 1969 would be fantastic aswell.
I have no idea about taking apart engines, which could provide a big problem when I purchase one of these. But I plan on fixing that…
[quote]dez6485 wrote:
yup, the XLR uses Cadillac’s Northstar engine. the one i drove was the XLR-V, i didnt specifically mention the “V” but you guys obviously gathered that from the supercharged part.
beachguy498-
in regards to your last comment about 351 windsor vs. cleveland, everything i have read online and in the books ive picked up suggests otherwise, that the 351W is a much easier engine to work with in terms of part availability. From what i understand, the Cleveland aftermarket is just starting to pick up with AFR offering aluminum heads and such. It’s also my understanding that the 351C’s only real advantage is its heads, and therefore if aftermarket heads are part of the plan for a 351W, that fact becomes irrelevant.
From what i’m seeing, the 351C is a lot easier to come by- local guy has two complete engines for sale for $400/obo. ive asked him to take pics of whichever is in better shape and send them to me. I will most likely go take a look at it this weekend and bring it home for ~$150. i was going to just try to find a block to start with, but im sure theres some lessons to be learned in disassembly that i dont want to miss. [/quote]
I had a '66 with an old 289 and went through these same issues, although I sold it before I got arounding to swapping motors.
Go with the windsor. The swap will be much simpler because the motor mounts and bell housing are the same. As you said, parts are also much easier to find given that the windsor was much more popular for a long time. You also won’t have to worry about the oil delivery problems inherent to the cleveland, and can always add a new valve train with aluminum heads. Plenty of those upgrades are available.
The windsor upgrade seems to be more popular and you will have much better luck finding documentation for it and others that have done it.
The only real issue I remember when I was planning out mine was that the 351W is taller than a 289 or 302. If you are not going to use fuel injection you will have to keep this in mind when you buy your intake manifold and carbuerator so that you don’t have to modify the hood. If I remember correctly you can even stick with stock 351 exhaust manifolds if you don’t want to add headers, although if I were going through that much work I’d just put the headers on. You will have to do some custom exhaust work either way though after that point.
No worries, if this all goes down, I have no problems with a “small” hood modification. The idea of a sleeper is cool, but I think a little hood modification on a coupe really makes it pop. Let’s everyone know it’s not your standard coupe…which of course would be the opposite of sleeper.
The best way to get into muscle cars is through the window, like Bo and Luke.
I have a 1966 Mustang Coupe, but it’s definitely not a muscle car. I bought it when I was 14 and couldn’t afford power. I still want a 67 small block GT 350, but I’d probably have to fake it. Those cars are not cheap! Even a 2+2 is expensive, last time I looked around.
I love old cars because there is so much room to work, and you can do it all yourself. I look at a modern engine and everything is so compacted.
This thread is awesome, I’m just sitting here reading it, not knowing what anything is and then googling it. It’s my way of learning, so don’t stop!
Rattler-
thats pretty cool, i did that all weekend. i basically said “i dont know shit about cars” and started reading and thats where im at now, looking for a ford engine to tear down and rebuild! I guess i have the advantage that when i want to do something, or get something in my head, im almost (or AM) obsessive about it. While one person might have a thought about something and let it flow right out the other ear, i will research the hell out of it and find answers.
In fact: here’s my new plan as of starting this thread-
i am in the process of locating a 351 windsor engine locally right now. once i purchase this, i will tear it down and properly label and store the components. Also, during this process i would like to periodically put the engine together and tear it down, so that i become very familiar with it- although i need to first make sure this will not harm the engine in any way.
Then, piece by piece, i will purchase the parts that will need to be replaced due to wear, as well as parts that i plan to upgrade for better performance.
in the mean time, i have decided to open a spare bank account specifically for this project, that i will make monthly contributions to, but nothing ridiculous, so that hopefully in a couple years time, i will have the money to purchase a 67-68 coupe that this beast will go in. i have decided to go this route because at 24y/o, with a practically new Jeep, i think it would be irresponsible of me to plunk down money RIGHT now to buy another car. i am trying to sell my motorcycle, and originally my intention was to throw that money right into a car, but i think it would be best to put the money in the bank. and the Stang will be that much sweeter after ive worked for it for a while…
and all of that may be important to only me, but im excited to have a plan and a clear vision on where to go here, thought id share.
[quote]dez6485 wrote:
In fact: here’s my new plan as of starting this thread-
i am in the process of locating a 351 windsor engine locally right now. once i purchase this, i will tear it down and properly label and store the components. Also, during this process i would like to periodically put the engine together and tear it down, so that i become very familiar with it- although i need to first make sure this will not harm the engine in any way.
Then, piece by piece, i will purchase the parts that will need to be replaced due to wear, as well as parts that i plan to upgrade for better performance.
in the mean time, i have decided to open a spare bank account specifically for this project, that i will make monthly contributions to, but nothing ridiculous, so that hopefully in a couple years time, i will have the money to purchase a 67-68 coupe that this beast will go in. i have decided to go this route because at 24y/o, with a practically new Jeep, i think it would be irresponsible of me to plunk down money RIGHT now to buy another car. i am trying to sell my motorcycle, and originally my intention was to throw that money right into a car, but i think it would be best to put the money in the bank. and the Stang will be that much sweeter after ive worked for it for a while…
and all of that may be important to only me, but im excited to have a plan and a clear vision on where to go here, thought id share. [/quote]
I don’t think that’s a bad idea at all. The very first thing I would do is get a ford engine overhaul book (I know Haynes makes one, Chilton probably has one too). You’ll need one regardless just for the torque specifications, proper clearances, tolerances, etc. Read it before you do anything because no message board is going to prepare you for everything, and I’m just trying to give you the most basic of idea of what you will be doing.
Taking it apart and rebuilding it periodically won’t hurt a thing, but keep in mind that you will need a number of tools that you don’t likely have, in addition to an engine stand. It’s usually easier to just rent tools as you need them if you aren’t a professional mechanic, so this will add to your cost especially if you do it multiple times. Also be sure to keep the parts properly lubricated (a light coat of oil) even when in storage to prevent surface rust.
Personally, I would just buy a rebuilt, .030" overbored short block. (A short block is the engine block, plus crank and pistons preoperly installed) You can get one for under a grand, which is probably less than you’ll spend if you buy a used one and overhaul it by the time you throw in new parts and the cost of a machine shop. You may not get to do quite as much hands on work, but you won’t have to go through the hassle of honing the cylinders, balancing your crankshaft, checking the crank tolerances, and installing your piston rods and rings, in addition to the actual pistons. That will still leave you plenty of work to do with the valve train on your own.
I’d have to second tedro on a few points.
You need to purchase the right tools! Haynes manuals are godsends to gear heads! A short block would be a good start, especially since you have never built an engine from the ground up. I’d suggest getting a Summit catalog and scouring that. The piece of mind is worth the cost alone.
Personally, and this is just me, I have always dreamed of putting a 351W bored and stroked to 427 in a '68. I have also seen some crazy 351 Cleveland setups with some Aussie heads… but I think parts availability for the Clevelands is pretty shitty compared to the Windsor, I mean they made Windsors until 1995 right?
Another option would be to pull a 351 in decent shape out of a Bronco or F150 and put it into your car of choice. Later on you can pull it and rebuild it, but the engine installation experience would be good.
i was going to post this on a Mustang board, but as you guys seem to be familiar with the Windsors, i can ask here-
ive got an offer on a 351w from an 85 Ford f350 4x4, and another offer thats a '77 coming out of a '68 cougar, guy says its got less than 15,000 miles on it and runs perfect, and that its a roller. its late, and my book is downstairs so i dont remember off the top of my head when they started the rollers, so i dont know if it was originally or changed over.
as far as the years are concerned, i thought i had read something about 69-74 being the best, but i read a lot today that suggested they might be slightly stronger, but the later ones were definitely still good for ~700hp, im sure more than ill ever need.
what would you guys think, knowing that im looking for a 450-500 hp/tq street car?
the '77 coming out of the cougar, if it is as he says it is, would that allow me to skip the machining?
Now days, it’s going to be hard to get you hands on a 67-68 or any stang up to a 73 for even a reasonable price for the condition it is in. Trust me, I was in the market for a long time and finally broke down and 01 Cobra.
Let’s say you do get your hands on a classic Ford though, and you want a 351. First thing to realise is that although the 351c is a great motor with great heads, availability and price for quality parts on them are getting, well, pricey. The best bet would be to start with a 351w out of a newer Ford truck. The parts are dirt cheap compared to most other builds and the swap would be fairly straight forward. As for tranny options, the 351w would allow you to use the always available T5 5-speed out of any v8 Mustang(as well as most other manual trans ford cars) built from 79 to 95. If you want a auto trans you could run the aod from said cars, or go to the amazing c4 three speed.
As far as suspension goes, there are many companies(griggs, qa1, ect.) that offer parts/templates to put modern Mustang front and rear suspensions in the classics. The benifit of this is rack and pinion steering and a much more balanced and usuable ride. If you insist on only going straight though, you need to go no further than Jegs or Summit Racing.
Good luck and hope you find a decent deal.
I’d love to build up an old car, but not something I’d have to restore. I think the heartbreak of find rusted busted parts would get to me. I’d get a Dynacorn shell and build it from the ground up. They do have the 67 fastback you like so much. I think you can register it as a 67 too, so no smog laws to worry about…I’d still try to get it to do well on the sniffer test though.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
muscle cars are so badass dude
youll get way more poon than if u drove a civic[/quote]
LOL!!! You would think, but muscle cars tend to draw more middle men than anything. I don’t know about where you live, but at the car scene here the girls hang around the ricers due to the fact most of the little douches are dealers and the girls know how to get discounts.
Is the Cougar a racecar? I ask because, usually low mileage engines that have been swapped before could have been used as a bracket racing car or something, so the 15000 miles may be a little bit different than if it was driven 15000 miles on the freeway, you know? Or the dude could just love his FoMoCo cars and just have souped up his cougar.
I’d say test for compression and buy it if the price is right. Hell, if there is something wrong down the line, you still would have an engine to work on. Also check the oil out for metal and whatnot, theres other things to look for if the engine was beat up, but I’m tired and can’t remember them atm lol.
Side note: If you have the space, extra motors aren’t that bad. I know a friend of my dad who has 3 440 Magnum engines in his shed. He’s a Mopar guy with a Roadrunner, so he will just pull engines out as a project. That dude is a true gearhead.
[quote]HEAVYMETALMATT wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
muscle cars are so badass dude
youll get way more poon than if u drove a civic
LOL!!! You would think, but muscle cars tend to draw more middle men than anything. I don’t know about where you live, but at the car scene here the girls hang around the ricers due to the fact most of the little douches are dealers and the girls know how to get discounts.[/quote]
The only thing my Cobra gets me is bad looks from Johnny Law. Flowmasters+V8+Red paint= Cop magnet, lol.
i just checked out that Dynacorn site…JESUS! i guess its a good option for some, but not for this guy! for one thing, they only have the fastbacks- no hating on them, i love them, but ive decided i want a coupe. perhaps that decision come about in terms of money first, but after i saw pictures of several black coupes done right, the preference for “MY” car became clear.
it fits more with my personality, ive never been one to brag or try and show people how perfect i am, but when action is called for, i show my true colors. i see that in a well done coupe. the fastbacks are amazing looking, but they arent hiding anything. they look fast just sitting there. a well done coupe has some mystery to it. people know its a classic mustang on the outside, but they dont quite know whats going on in the inside, especially when you fire it up with a big engine in there!
but the price- i could find a decent 67-68 289 coupe for the cost of their body!
.
lame, i know.
Therizza-
no, i dont have space! i dont even know where the fuck im going to put this extra engine that my garage will supposedly be housing! ive got my eye on this white cupboard kinda thing in the corner of the garage that im sure is full of crap from moving 2 years ago, it might get stuffed in my jeep and promptly taken to the dump.
another thing thats pretty funny is that one of the guys im in contact with on the engine asked if i had something to lift it with or if he should bring his crane (hes passing through and offering to bring the engine to me)…funny part is i guess i had some illusions that i was strong enough that i could grab and friend and we could lift the damn thing. i never bothered to see how much one weighs…