[quote]orion wrote:
You are actually proud that your government spreads its loot all around the world?
[/quote]
Our tax rates are much lower than yours.
[quote]JeffR wrote:
bota,
You never fail to underwhelm.
If the government was stealing, why not just line their own pockets?
Why feed starving children?
In order to make that argument work, the U.S. Government would have to be a modern day Robin Hood.
That image certainly doesn’t back up your evil American leaders argument, does it?
JeffR
[/quote]
I know that socialism has worked its magic on you, like it has on every other neocon , I still see no reason to defend it though.
You cannot be generous with other peoples money, period.
Plus, Robin Hood took FROM the government that was taxing the shit out of people and gave it to the people.
Big difference.
[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
orion wrote:
Remember that Germany is a country where the government actually needs a warrant to listen to your phone calls,
Also true in America. The exceptions – which are being challenged in court by the way – are for very specific cases. This involves phone calls originating outside the USA, going to terror suspects inside the USA. So technically, the NSA could not legally monitor any phone calls that I or roughly 300 million Americans make.
I know you’d like this to be a cut and dry issue but there is significant legal argument to be made that this falls within the right of the executive branch to intercept enemy communications during a time of war.
If they monitor non-citizen’s communications all the time, I don’t care.
Personally, I don’t support the system as it is. I think eventually, when the legal battle is over with, the FISA court will have been revised to be more responsive to the nature of the threat, returning judicial oversight of the situation.
As usual, your reading of the situation is shallow and incorrect.
search your house, has to hand you a receipt of what they took from there,
This is absolutely untrue. If this has been tried domestically on a US citizen, they would have an easy time in court, as protection from unlawful search and seizure is a bedrock of the Constitution (4th amendment). There are certain exceptions to this protection that are pretty well defined by US law.
If the government has done this to non-citizens living in the US, I could care less.
needs a judges warrant to look into your bank accounts and dealings with the post office, library etc,
This is true of the system in the US, you fucking nitwit. Section 215 of the Patriot Act requires a warrant from a judge for any of this.
Yet you don’t see a problem with all the banned books your country has? All of the “prohibited thoughts” and “hate speech” that your government deems you too stupid to handle?
If the US monitors every single communication and transaction involving non-citizens in the USA – so what?
cannot listen in when you are talking to your lawyer, priest, therapist or doctor,
Also not legal in the US without a warrant. If the government does this to non-US citizens: big deal.
nor can it search their offices
4th Amendment. If the government does this to non-citizens I don’t give a shit.
does not kidnap
I don’t care about “kidnapping” foreigners plotting attacks against the USA if the country they are in refuses to act. If they kidnap American citizens without due process this is illegal.
or torture people
Neither does the US as a matter of policy. The offenders from Abu Ghraib are in prison.
I don’t consider sleep interruption, or harsh language “torture”.
I consider your grandparents making lamps out of Jews’ skins, wrapping people in barbed wire, making Jews quarry rocks with their fingernails, and injecting gas into their eyeballs just to see what happened “torture”.
does not put civilians in front of military tribunals…
Non-uniformed enemy combatants, according to the Geneva conventions, have no rights that we don’t choose to give them. They are not “civilians” if captured on the battlefield without a uniform, which you would know if you’d ever bothered to read the Conventions. They are considered “beyond the pale”, “barbarians”, “those not adhering to even the most basic rules of war”.
I personally disagree with the policy of the US of capturing and interrogating these people in some far away base. If the person in question was operating outside of the Geneva Convention, by using civilians for cover, or for masquerading as civilians during combat, the procedure ought to be fairly simple.
I believe the interrogation ought to happen in Iraq or Afghanistan, and then they ought to be executed. This was the practice during the Second World War under similar circumstances with all of the Allied powers.
If they were fighting within the bounds of the Convention, I believe we ought to either turn them back over to the country they were captured in. Or if we are going to treat them as POWs, we ought to put them in a POW camp until the war ends. That means if it happens 25 years from now, too bad.
Funny, nobody seems to want to discuss that list. Ad hominems and no end in sight, but not one who tries to take down my little list.
There you go. How are you feeling about jailing a historian for disagreeing with official accounts of the Holocaust, or having a censor go through your video games and books to thought police out all the “questionable material”?
Oh, and go fuck yourself for the flag-waving comments. Just because your country isn’t worth being proud of, doesn’t mean mine isn’t.[/quote]
AND for you too…
I really should get paid for this…
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1623000
See how wrong you are concerning at least half of your arguments?
Does that not make you fell uneasy concerening the rest you think you know?
[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
orion wrote:
More per capita than the US, as does every civilized nation if you do not count dropped bombs or military aid.
We also do not link preaching abstinence and similar BS to our foreign aid.
Since I am very much against this kind of wellfare I do not really want to defend that though.
Does the “Per capita” thing make you cowards really feel better? You do know that in our country private donations outweigh foreign government aid, do you not?
And if you factor in the dozens of trillions of dollars we spend keeping Europe free, somehow I don’t mind if you give away some of the money you don’t spend defending yourselves.[/quote]
We are cowards because of our per capita spending on foreign aid?
Chucky, are you insane?
[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
orion wrote:
You are actually proud that your government spreads its loot all around the world?
Our tax rates are much lower than yours. [/quote]
But you have a lot more people to tax!
[quote]orion wrote:
I really should get paid for this…
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1623000
See how wrong you are concerning at least half of your arguments?
Does that not make you fell uneasy concerening the rest you think you know?[/quote]
???
That didn’t dis"prove" anything I wrote. I took all that time to correct you and you replied with some bullshit link. I made specific assertions, and you post some vids of some guy yelling and screaming about black helicopters? Care to admit that in reality you understand neither US policy, laws, customs, culture, or lifestyle?
In other words, I win. You lose.
God, that was easy.
[quote]orion wrote:
ChuckyT wrote:
orion wrote:
More per capita than the US, as does every civilized nation if you do not count dropped bombs or military aid.
We also do not link preaching abstinence and similar BS to our foreign aid.
Since I am very much against this kind of wellfare I do not really want to defend that though.
Does the “Per capita” thing make you cowards really feel better? You do know that in our country private donations outweigh foreign government aid, do you not?
And if you factor in the dozens of trillions of dollars we spend keeping Europe free, somehow I don’t mind if you give away some of the money you don’t spend defending yourselves.
We are cowards because of our per capita spending on foreign aid?
Chucky, are you insane? [/quote]
I notice you keep dodging the point about Americans spending trillions and trillions of dollars protecting your rights over the last 50 years.
Let me guess – we kept the West free just as an incidental bonus in our face off with the USSR? It was pure self-interest?
[quote]orion wrote:
More per capita than the US, as does every civilized nation if you do not count dropped bombs or military aid. [/quote]
I notice the “civilized nations” comment. Watch out, that’s dangerously close to being hate speech, the government might be coming to get you!
Of course not. Discussions of morality are dying along with your civilization.
[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
orion wrote:
I really should get paid for this…
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1623000
See how wrong you are concerning at least half of your arguments?
Does that not make you fell uneasy concerening the rest you think you know?
???
That didn’t dis"prove" anything I wrote. I took all that time to correct you and you replied with some bullshit link. I made specific assertions, and you post some vids of some guy yelling and screaming about black helicopters? Care to admit that in reality you understand neither US policy, laws, customs, culture, or lifestyle?
In other words, I win. You lose.
God, that was easy.[/quote]
http://www.judgenap.com/judge.html
No that were your unthinking reflexes, THIS is JUDGE Naplitano:
http://www.judgenap.com/judge.html
Princeton, Notre Dame, youngest life-tenured Superior Court judge in the history of the State of New Jersey, senior judicial analyst of Fox News…
Aren´t you even a little bit embarrased?
I shudder to think what people you are used to arguing with, if you think that this is what is takes to win a discussion.
[quote]JeffR wrote:
ron33 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
ChuckyT wrote:
orion wrote:
Why would I be upset? I am a free citizen in a free country…
You’re welcome.
Yes, send Grandpa my best wishes!
Actually it was my uncle and he was a volunteer.
I also had a great uncle that was a WW1 vet and volunteered to fight in WW 2.He was let out of prison to fight in WW2 after being falsely accused of a crime by some corrupt cops ,which he was later able to prove because he had a relative that had money and was willing to help.He was a paratropper that was shot up on the invasion.
Even though he fought in two world wars against the German’s and was severly wounded, I know he hated our wonderful legal system and corrupt police a hell of a lot more.For the rest of his life until he died ,he would ocassionally run into these retired corrupt cops and beat the hell out of them.
Sounds like a real dick.
I’m glad he wasn’t exposed to one of the bad guys of a given race or organization.
Sounds like the kind of guy to blame an entire group on the actions of a few.
JeffR
[/quote]This man did’nt like the republican controlled legal system in the town in which he lived because he knew all the pay off’s and corruption that has been a part of it since the early 1900’s. apperently you dont know much about how thing’s really operate.get educated on you country then make statement’s.
[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
Chucky, are you insane?
I notice you keep dodging the point about Americans spending trillions and trillions of dollars protecting your rights over the last 50 years.
Let me guess – we kept the West free just as an incidental bonus in our face off with the USSR? It was pure self-interest?[/quote]
Since you did not make that argument I could hardly dodge it, but yes you protectd us out of sheer self interested which very much coincided with our interests.
That is how good deals are made and oh th money we all made from it…
Anyway, since you did not spend a dime to defend Austria and there was no plan to defend us in times of war (occupy yes, the valuable briges and passes in the west, but not defend) you are probably barking up the wrong tree here.
Why are y’all having a long dick contest over this? Does one have to be better than another? Really who cares. I like both Europe and America. If Germany bans Criuse simply because he is an idiot nincompoop scientologist that is wrong. It would be wrong anywhere.
Besides the fact he isn’t there to spread the gospel of the Body Thetans he just wants to make a movie. I wish he’d try to spread scientology in Saudi Arabia, then we’d be rid of his dumb ass for good.
Anyhow, Orion you are as guilty of patirotism as anybody else, like that’s a crime. Like said, who cares, you like where you live, we like were we live, and I wouldn’t mind spending a few years of my life in Europe, it’d be a nice change. We aren’t better than you and you damn sure ain’t better than us. Kumbuya, lets hold hands and sing…
[quote]ron33 wrote:
JeffR wrote:
ron33 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
ChuckyT wrote:
orion wrote:
Why would I be upset? I am a free citizen in a free country…
You’re welcome.
Yes, send Grandpa my best wishes!
Actually it was my uncle and he was a volunteer.
I also had a great uncle that was a WW1 vet and volunteered to fight in WW 2.He was let out of prison to fight in WW2 after being falsely accused of a crime by some corrupt cops ,which he was later able to prove because he had a relative that had money and was willing to help.He was a paratropper that was shot up on the invasion.
Even though he fought in two world wars against the German’s and was severly wounded, I know he hated our wonderful legal system and corrupt police a hell of a lot more.For the rest of his life until he died ,he would ocassionally run into these retired corrupt cops and beat the hell out of them.
Sounds like a real dick.
I’m glad he wasn’t exposed to one of the bad guys of a given race or organization.
Sounds like the kind of guy to blame an entire group on the actions of a few.
JeffR
This man did’nt like the republican controlled legal system in the town in which he lived because he knew all the pay off’s and corruption that has been a part of it since the early 1900’s. apperently you dont know much about how thing’s really operate.get educated on you country then make statement’s.
[/quote]
renny,
What country do you live in?
It would help me understand your point of view.
Thanks.
JeffR
[quote]orion wrote:
JeffR wrote:
bota,
You never fail to underwhelm.
If the government was stealing, why not just line their own pockets?
Why feed starving children?
In order to make that argument work, the U.S. Government would have to be a modern day Robin Hood.
That image certainly doesn’t back up your evil American leaders argument, does it?
JeffR
I know that socialism has worked its magic on you, like it has on every other neocon , I still see no reason to defend it though.
You cannot be generous with other peoples money, period.
Plus, Robin Hood took FROM the government that was taxing the shit out of people and gave it to the people.
Big difference.
[/quote]
Really? I thought he took from the rich Normans.
I forget, was every rich Norman a government official?
JeffR
[quote]orion wrote:
ChuckyT wrote:
orion wrote:
You are actually proud that your government spreads its loot all around the world?
Our tax rates are much lower than yours.
But you have a lot more people to tax!
[/quote]
12 million extra, very soon. Bush’s bill is working its way through our Senate.
If we decide to all move illegally to Austria, will we get medical care, housing, schooling for our kids, and other such goodies?
[quote]orion wrote:
to put it all together:
Your link did not work, this one does, in English:
http://www.bundespruefstelle.de/bpjm/information-in-english.html
According to their website they took the list down because it was actually advertising for these products you can still run specific products through their website though.
God, you are so wrong on everything.
See how that works?
You do not call someone a dickhead you crush his arguments and yours allmost croak by themselves…
[/quote]
orion,
I would never insult a dick nor a head by comparing them to you.
Now, you are correct, I don’t speak German. As everyone knows, there is far more incentive for you to learn my language than vis versa.
Please direct me through the website to the list of the banned works. Then respond to the law I quoted where the new works being banned are on a non-public server.
If you cannot, take your bicycle out for a spin. Your brain needs air.
JeffR
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Besides the fact he isn’t there to spread the gospel of the Body Thetans he just wants to make a movie. I wish he’d try to spread scientology in Saudi Arabia, then we’d be rid of his dumb ass for good.
[/quote]
LOL! Or China. I’d love to see what the Chinese would make of Scientology. We weren’t supposed to bring a Bible in country, when we went to get my daughter. They’d probably laugh at L. Ron and his fascination with clothes hangers!
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Why are y’all having a long dick contest over this? Does one have to be better than another? Really who cares. I like both Europe and America. If Germany bans Criuse simply because he is an idiot nincompoop scientologist that is wrong. It would be wrong anywhere.
Besides the fact he isn’t there to spread the gospel of the Body Thetans he just wants to make a movie. I wish he’d try to spread scientology in Saudi Arabia, then we’d be rid of his dumb ass for good.
Anyhow, Orion you are as guilty of patirotism as anybody else, like that’s a crime. Like said, who cares, you like where you live, we like were we live, and I wouldn’t mind spending a few years of my life in Europe, it’d be a nice change. We aren’t better than you and you damn sure ain’t better than us. Kumbuya, lets hold hands and sing…[/quote]
There is one point I would disagree though, you won`t find the level of patriotism and the worship of a flag or the military anywhere in Europe.
That is uniquely American, and I honestly think we grew out of that…
We might have grown into some serious other shit, but that is behind us…
[quote]JeffR wrote:
orion wrote:
JeffR wrote:
bota,
You never fail to underwhelm.
If the government was stealing, why not just line their own pockets?
Why feed starving children?
In order to make that argument work, the U.S. Government would have to be a modern day Robin Hood.
That image certainly doesn’t back up your evil American leaders argument, does it?
JeffR
I know that socialism has worked its magic on you, like it has on every other neocon , I still see no reason to defend it though.
You cannot be generous with other peoples money, period.
Plus, Robin Hood took FROM the government that was taxing the shit out of people and gave it to the people.
Big difference.
Really? I thought he took from the rich Normans.
I forget, was every rich Norman a government official?
JeffR
[/quote]
Basically yes, they occupied England and made the Angeln and Saxons pay taxes…
1066, Hastings, Wilhelm the Conqueror and so on…
True, they needed the money to ransom their King who was sitting in an Austrian dungeon, but we really, truly needed the money.
We built Vienna with it, at least the first district that stands today…
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
orion wrote:
ChuckyT wrote:
orion wrote:
You are actually proud that your government spreads its loot all around the world?
Our tax rates are much lower than yours.
But you have a lot more people to tax!
12 million extra, very soon. Bush’s bill is working its way through our Senate.
If we decide to all move illegally to Austria, will we get medical care, housing, schooling for our kids, and other such goodies?
[/quote]
Basically yes, though I doubt we could handle 300 million…