Germany Bans Cruise

[quote]ron33 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
ChuckyT wrote:
orion wrote:

Why would I be upset? I am a free citizen in a free country…

You’re welcome.

Yes, send Grandpa my best wishes!

Actually it was my uncle and he was a volunteer.
I also had a great uncle that was a WW1 vet and volunteered to fight in WW 2.He was let out of prison to fight in WW2 after being falsely accused of a crime by some corrupt cops ,which he was later able to prove because he had a relative that had money and was willing to help.He was a paratropper that was shot up on the invasion.

Even though he fought in two world wars against the German’s and was severly wounded, I know he hated our wonderful legal system and corrupt police a hell of a lot more.For the rest of his life until he died ,he would ocassionally run into these retired corrupt cops and beat the hell out of them.

[/quote]

Sounds like a real dick.

I’m glad he wasn’t exposed to one of the bad guys of a given race or organization.

Sounds like the kind of guy to blame an entire group on the actions of a few.

JeffR

[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:

I posted one example after another what does happen in the US and not in Germany.

The topic is Germany’s persecution of a man based on his religion.

You tried to turn it into another anti-American screed. Very pathetic on your part.

No, ChuckT our local flag humping super patriot turned it into “oh these savages have still so much to learn regarding freedom” and I was more than happy to remind him that they are actually a freer people than US Americans.[/quote]

We dont’ have thought police.

Check the list and you’ll find the germans are substantially less free than the Americans.

JeffR.

[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

Or the EU…

YOu would probably be samll no matter what flag you hid behind.

But that would be me in all my tiny, minuscule glory instead of all hat and no cattle which I perceive US super patriots to be…

There is no fundamental difference between feeling special to be born American than to be born aryan you know?
[/quote]

How much FREE aid do the austrians or the aryans supply to the world each year?

Yea, I’ll stay proud being American.

JeffR

[quote]JeffR wrote:

bota,

Your response was just as weak and ineffectual as I had imagined.

I’ll let you in on a little secret: I wasn’t really responding to you.

However, there are many more erudite and influential euroweenies that hold your views about the U.S.

To them I apply the fist.

I want those in germany who accuse the U.S. of civil rights violations, to look no further than their own system.

The hypocrisy is clear.

Oh, by the way, if you look at his writings (easily linked by the link I sent), he’s defending Germany. He’s not denying the holocaust. Take a peek at his writings from the link I sent.

Oh, the youtube link you sent, I couldn’t watch it.

Anytime you throw klan robes and the swastika in my face, I crush the sender or switch the channel.

I admit not watching more than 3 seconds of that youtube crap you sent.

JeffR[/quote]

So what this all boils down to:

Neonazis have a hard time in Germany.

If that is all you got, fine.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:

I posted one example after another what does happen in the US and not in Germany.

The topic is Germany’s persecution of a man based on his religion.

You tried to turn it into another anti-American screed. Very pathetic on your part.

No, ChuckT our local flag humping super patriot turned it into “oh these savages have still so much to learn regarding freedom” and I was more than happy to remind him that they are actually a freer people than US Americans.

We dont’ have thought police.

Check the list and you’ll find the germans are substantially less free than the Americans.

JeffR.

[/quote]

You cannot deny the holocaust.

End of list.

I am glad to list their many freedoms you do not share AGAIN:

Remember that Germany is a country where the government actually needs a warrant to listen to your phone calls, search your house, has to hand you a receipt of what they took from there, needs a judges warrant to look into your bank accounts and dealings with the post office, library etc, cannot listen in when you are talking to your lawyer, priest, therapist or doctor, nor can it search their offices, does not kidnap or torture people, does not put civilians in front of military tribunals…

Funny, nobody seems to want to discuss that list.

Ad hominems and no end in sight, but not one who tries to take down my little list.

Oh my…

Just in case there is a SINGLE person who doubts the civil rights laws in Germany are oppressive and totalitarian, I’ve put together a list.

Let’s make sure (before trotting out the “you got me I’ll impeach the source without thinking” defense) to check the variety of sources linked

I. http://www.natall.com/american-dissident-voices/adv120493.html

II. Pick up the phone and call 011-49-1805-234566. You can accuse your fellow German citizens if they are too “right wing.”

III. Here’s a list of the total, 2500 + “youth endangering” texts banned in Germany.

Gesamtverzeichnis indizierter Bücher, Taschenbücher, Broschüren und Comics

IV. Here’s the absolute kicker: In 2002 the German Law for the protection of Youth was changed so that the works which are objectionable are now listed in a non-public place. Therefore, you don’t know what the government finds objectionable until they come for you.

http://www.bmfsfj.de/Anlage22804/Jugendschutzgesetz_JuSchG_vom_23._Juli_2002.pdf

JeffR

P.S. I’ve only listed four. That should allow anyone interested to thoroughly digest them. If you feel like bringing out the usual “impeach the source” wave-off, let me know. I’ve got a bunch more.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

Or the EU…

YOu would probably be samll no matter what flag you hid behind.

But that would be me in all my tiny, minuscule glory instead of all hat and no cattle which I perceive US super patriots to be…

There is no fundamental difference between feeling special to be born American than to be born aryan you know?

How much FREE aid do the austrians or the aryans supply to the world each year?

Yea, I’ll stay proud being American.

JeffR

[/quote]

More per capita than the US, as does every civilized nation if you do not count dropped bombs or military aid.

We also do not link preaching abstinence and similar BS to our foreign aid.

Since I am very much against this kind of wellfare I do not really want to defend that though.

[quote]orion wrote:
JeffR wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:

I posted one example after another what does happen in the US and not in Germany.

The topic is Germany’s persecution of a man based on his religion.

You tried to turn it into another anti-American screed. Very pathetic on your part.

No, ChuckT our local flag humping super patriot turned it into “oh these savages have still so much to learn regarding freedom” and I was more than happy to remind him that they are actually a freer people than US Americans.

We dont’ have thought police.

Check the list and you’ll find the germans are substantially less free than the Americans.

JeffR.

You cannot deny the holocaust.

End of list.

I am glad to list their many freedoms you do not share AGAIN:

Remember that Germany is a country where the government actually needs a warrant to listen to your phone calls, search your house, has to hand you a receipt of what they took from there, needs a judges warrant to look into your bank accounts and dealings with the post office, library etc, cannot listen in when you are talking to your lawyer, priest, therapist or doctor, nor can it search their offices, does not kidnap or torture people, does not put civilians in front of military tribunals…

Funny, nobody seems to want to discuss that list.

Ad hominems and no end in sight, but not one who tries to take down my little list.

Oh my…
[/quote]

Hey, bota.

I’ve been addressing the “kidnap and torture people” from the beginning.

You simply stink.

JeffR

[quote]orion wrote:
JeffR wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

Or the EU…

YOu would probably be samll no matter what flag you hid behind.

But that would be me in all my tiny, minuscule glory instead of all hat and no cattle which I perceive US super patriots to be…

There is no fundamental difference between feeling special to be born American than to be born aryan you know?

How much FREE aid do the austrians or the aryans supply to the world each year?

Yea, I’ll stay proud being American.

JeffR

More per capita than the US, as does every civilized nation if you do not count dropped bombs or military aid.

We also do not link preaching abstinence and similar BS to our foreign aid.

Since I am very much against this kind of wellfare I do not really want to defend that though.

[/quote]

Per capita?

What a stupid argument.

So if you have nothing, anything given looks good.

Again, I’ll stick with the guys who give the most.

JeffR

[quote]orion wrote:
JeffR wrote:

bota,

Your response was just as weak and ineffectual as I had imagined.

I’ll let you in on a little secret: I wasn’t really responding to you.

However, there are many more erudite and influential euroweenies that hold your views about the U.S.

To them I apply the fist.

I want those in germany who accuse the U.S. of civil rights violations, to look no further than their own system.

The hypocrisy is clear.

Oh, by the way, if you look at his writings (easily linked by the link I sent), he’s defending Germany. He’s not denying the holocaust. Take a peek at his writings from the link I sent.

Oh, the youtube link you sent, I couldn’t watch it.

Anytime you throw klan robes and the swastika in my face, I crush the sender or switch the channel.

I admit not watching more than 3 seconds of that youtube crap you sent.

JeffR

So what this all boils down to:

Neonazis have a hard time in Germany.

If that is all you got, fine.[/quote]

Oh, bota.

The term “neonazi” is apparently applied quite widely.

There is serious worry that it applies to anyone who is in the Right.

Want some links?

Here, in America, we believe in people’s right to free speech.

I find flag burning, the klan, louis farrakhan deeply offensive. However, I support their right to free speech.

Not so in Germany.

JeffR

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Just in case there is a SINGLE person who doubts the civil rights laws in Germany are oppressive and totalitarian, I’ve put together a list.

Let’s make sure (before trotting out the “you got me I’ll impeach the source without thinking” defense) to check the variety of sources linked

I. http://www.natall.com/american-dissident-voices/adv120493.html

II. Pick up the phone and call 011-49-1805-234566. You can accuse your fellow German citizens if they are too “right wing.”

III. Here’s a list of the total, 2500 + “youth endangering” texts banned in Germany.

Gesamtverzeichnis indizierter Bücher, Taschenbücher, Broschüren und Comics

IV. Here’s the absolute kicker: In 2002 the German Law for the protection of Youth was changed so that the works which are objectionable are now listed in a non-public place. Therefore, you don’t know what the government finds objectionable until they come for you.

http://www.bmfsfj.de/Anlage22804/Jugendschutzgesetz_JuSchG_vom_23._Juli_2002.pdf

JeffR

P.S. I’ve only listed four. That should allow anyone interested to thoroughly digest them. If you feel like bringing out the usual “impeach the source” wave-off, let me know. I’ve got a bunch more.
[/quote]

Leuchter denies the Holocaust, remember the one thing you are not supposed to do, the “Bundesprüfstelle für Jugendgefährdende Schriften” banns access to certain books, films, texts to MINORS, a concept not unheard of in the US.

Plus, if they “come for you” they ask you not to sell to children and if you do you are moderately fined.

What else do you have?

edit: your second link is corrupt, which probably does not ,matter since you do not speak German anyway.

[quote]JeffR wrote:

Per capita?

What a stupid argument.

So if you have nothing, anything given looks good.

Again, I’ll stick with the guys who give the most.

JeffR
[/quote]

You government has lots of people to steal from so they can afford to be extra generous with stolen money?

You are actually proud that your government spreads its loot all around the world?

[quote]JeffR wrote:

Hey, bota.

I’ve been addressing the “kidnap and torture people” from the beginning.

You simply stink.

JeffR
[/quote]

Unfortunately I do not have the privilege of being able to listen in to the voices in your head, but in this tread you did not.

Rememeber the Swedish muslims or the German one that disappeared in Bosnia?

Scientology probably reminds the Germans of the early Nazis, with their mind control and such.

Would we want someone putting on a Minstral Show here?

[quote]JeffR wrote:

Oh, bota.

The term “neonazi” is apparently applied quite widely.

There is serious worry that it applies to anyone who is in the Right.

Want some links?

Here, in America, we believe in people’s right to free speech.

I find flag burning, the klan, louis farrakhan deeply offensive. However, I support their right to free speech.

Not so in Germany.

JeffR

[/quote]

I could not possibly agree more.

[quote]orion wrote:
JeffR wrote:

Per capita?

What a stupid argument.

So if you have nothing, anything given looks good.

Again, I’ll stick with the guys who give the most.

JeffR

You government has lots of people to steal from so they can afford to be extra generous with stolen money?

You are actually proud that your government spreads its loot all around the world?

[/quote]

bota,

You never fail to underwhelm.

If the government was stealing, why not just line their own pockets?

Why feed starving children?

In order to make that argument work, the U.S. Government would have to be a modern day Robin Hood.

That image certainly doesn’t back up your evil American leaders argument, does it?

JeffR

[quote]orion wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Just in case there is a SINGLE person who doubts the civil rights laws in Germany are oppressive and totalitarian, I’ve put together a list.

Let’s make sure (before trotting out the “you got me I’ll impeach the source without thinking” defense) to check the variety of sources linked

I. http://www.natall.com/american-dissident-voices/adv120493.html

II. Pick up the phone and call 011-49-1805-234566. You can accuse your fellow German citizens if they are too “right wing.”

III. Here’s a list of the total, 2500 + “youth endangering” texts banned in Germany.

Gesamtverzeichnis indizierter Bücher, Taschenbücher, Broschüren und Comics

IV. Here’s the absolute kicker: In 2002 the German Law for the protection of Youth was changed so that the works which are objectionable are now listed in a non-public place. Therefore, you don’t know what the government finds objectionable until they come for you.

http://www.bmfsfj.de/Anlage22804/Jugendschutzgesetz_JuSchG_vom_23._Juli_2002.pdf

JeffR

P.S. I’ve only listed four. That should allow anyone interested to thoroughly digest them. If you feel like bringing out the usual “impeach the source” wave-off, let me know. I’ve got a bunch more.

Leuchter denies the Holocaust, remember the one thing you are not supposed to do, the “Bundesprüfstelle für Jugendgefährdende Schriften” banns access to certain books, films, texts to MINORS, a concept not unheard of in the US.

Plus, if they “come for you” they ask you not to sell to children and if you do you are moderately fined.

What else do you have?

[/quote]

bota,

You aren’t reading.

Anyone else care to take up the mantra that Germany is more socially benign than the U.S.?

Aka… Aren’t hypocrites when they thumb their nose at the U.S. about civil rights?

Oh, if you do pick up the glove, make sure you do FAR BETTER than bota. It gets boring arguing with someone who won’t read.

JeffR

[quote]orion wrote:

Remember that Germany is a country where the government actually needs a warrant to listen to your phone calls, [/quote]

Also true in America. The exceptions – which are being challenged in court by the way – are for very specific cases. This involves phone calls originating outside the USA, going to terror suspects inside the USA. So technically, the NSA could not legally monitor any phone calls that I or roughly 300 million Americans make.

I know you’d like this to be a cut and dry issue but there is significant legal argument to be made that this falls within the right of the executive branch to intercept enemy communications during a time of war.

If they monitor non-citizen’s communications all the time, I don’t care.

Personally, I don’t support the system as it is. I think eventually, when the legal battle is over with, the FISA court will have been revised to be more responsive to the nature of the threat, returning judicial oversight of the situation.

As usual, your reading of the situation is shallow and incorrect.

This is absolutely untrue. If this has been tried domestically on a US citizen, they would have an easy time in court, as protection from unlawful search and seizure is a bedrock of the Constitution (4th amendment). There are certain exceptions to this protection that are pretty well defined by US law.

If the government has done this to non-citizens living in the US, I could care less.

This is true of the system in the US, you fucking nitwit. Section 215 of the Patriot Act requires a warrant from a judge for any of this.

Yet you don’t see a problem with all the banned books your country has? All of the “prohibited thoughts” and “hate speech” that your government deems you too stupid to handle?

If the US monitors every single communication and transaction involving non-citizens in the USA – so what?

Also not legal in the US without a warrant. If the government does this to non-US citizens: big deal.

4th Amendment. If the government does this to non-citizens I don’t give a shit.

I don’t care about “kidnapping” foreigners plotting attacks against the USA if the country they are in refuses to act. If they kidnap American citizens without due process this is illegal.

Neither does the US as a matter of policy. The offenders from Abu Ghraib are in prison.

I don’t consider sleep interruption, or harsh language “torture”.

I consider your grandparents making lamps out of Jews’ skins, wrapping people in barbed wire, making Jews quarry rocks with their fingernails, and injecting gas into their eyeballs just to see what happened “torture”.

Non-uniformed enemy combatants, according to the Geneva conventions, have no rights that we don’t choose to give them. They are not “civilians” if captured on the battlefield without a uniform, which you would know if you’d ever bothered to read the Conventions. They are considered “beyond the pale”, “barbarians”, “those not adhering to even the most basic rules of war”.

I personally disagree with the policy of the US of capturing and interrogating these people in some far away base. If the person in question was operating outside of the Geneva Convention, by using civilians for cover, or for masquerading as civilians during combat, the procedure ought to be fairly simple.

I believe the interrogation ought to happen in Iraq or Afghanistan, and then they ought to be executed. This was the practice during the Second World War under similar circumstances with all of the Allied powers.

If they were fighting within the bounds of the Convention, I believe we ought to either turn them back over to the country they were captured in. Or if we are going to treat them as POWs, we ought to put them in a POW camp until the war ends. That means if it happens 25 years from now, too bad.

There you go. How are you feeling about jailing a historian for disagreeing with official accounts of the Holocaust, or having a censor go through your video games and books to thought police out all the “questionable material”?

Oh, and go fuck yourself for the flag-waving comments. Just because your country isn’t worth being proud of, doesn’t mean mine isn’t.

to put it all together:

Your link did not work, this one does, in English:

http://www.bundespruefstelle.de/bpjm/information-in-english.html

According to their website they took the list down because it was actually advertising for these products you can still run specific products through their website though.

God, you are so wrong on everything.

See how that works?

You do not call someone a dickhead you crush his arguments and yours allmost croak by themselves…

[quote]orion wrote:

More per capita than the US, as does every civilized nation if you do not count dropped bombs or military aid.

We also do not link preaching abstinence and similar BS to our foreign aid.

Since I am very much against this kind of wellfare I do not really want to defend that though.

[/quote]

Does the “Per capita” thing make you cowards really feel better? You do know that in our country private donations outweigh foreign government aid, do you not?

And if you factor in the dozens of trillions of dollars we spend keeping Europe free, somehow I don’t mind if you give away some of the money you don’t spend defending yourselves.