[quote]Sloth wrote:
Kosovo.[/quote]
Yes, the Russians backed troublemakers there too.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
typerr wrote:
Communism didnt fall after the death of Stalin. And Russia did not attack Georgia. Georgia attacked South Ossetia, and Russian peacekeepers. Russia only retaliated after its citizens and soldiers were being killed by Georgian military.
Please. Russia set the bait and some dipshit took it. That’s all that happened here.[/quote]
The Russians had been prepared for this attack and started a cyber attack weeks before Georgia did anything in South Ossetia.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Kosovo.
Yes, the Russians backed troublemakers there too.[/quote]
I was under the impression that it was us recognizing the existence of Kosovo.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Kosovo.
Yes, the Russians backed troublemakers there too.
I was under the impression that it was us recognizing the existence of Kosovo. [/quote]
How dare we do such a thing. Did we declare them American citizens and annex them as Russia is doing?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Kosovo.
Yes, the Russians backed troublemakers there too.
I was under the impression that it was us recognizing the existence of Kosovo.
How dare we do such a thing. Did we declare them American citizens and annex them as Russia is doing?[/quote]
Well, yes, how dare we. Nowhere near our borders, and yet we bomb and split off a chunk of that country (doing the KLA’s work), But, now we want to chastise Russia’s co-adventures with their own seperatist friends, on it’s own borders? Where the hell is our common sense?! Thank god Georgia isn’t in NATO, our we’d be in yet another war. A big one.
We were just made to look like the most ineffectual allies one could possibly have. Good game Russia. We should never have been in this position. Enough with the entangling alliances.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
typerr wrote:
Russia only retaliated after its citizens and soldiers were being killed by Georgian military.
Soooo, the Russian reasons for attacking Georgia are somewhat more noble? Stopping ethnic cleansing that isn’t even happening?
You cut the bullshit.
lol.[/quote]
When you comment about hypocrisy in Russia’s actions, you must take into consideration the order in which recent events ocurred - who was the first to break the line.
I’ll quote an article, already posted:
- Remember Kosovo.
Russia was mightily displeased when the West supported the separation of Kosovo from Serbia and warned of consequences. This might be one of them. Of course, Russia has not argued in this crisis that it is simply doing what the West did in Kosovo - that would undermine its own argument that states should not be broken up without agreement. But everyone knows that underneath, Kosovo is not far from its mind.
Of course, Russia isn’t the heel or the face, it just has a perfectly good example of similar situation gone in similar fashion.
@FightingIrish - Man, why would you deny the existence of such a rich and distinctive culture like the Russian culture? Maybe you think that the Soviet Era destroyed it, because of its confrontation with the Orthodox Church and many, many traditions? In that case you would be wrong, I would assume you haven’t met many Russians, if you think that they are confused or oblivious of the lessons of their past.
You pride yourself on being American, but don’t let this to cloud your judgement.
If you see things only in black and white, and you think of yourself, i.e. USA, as white, you are forced to label Russia as black.
Those Ossetians weren’t “declared” Russians. They actually filled up forms to get a Russia citizenship.
Two years ago, Ossetians voted on the status of their land in a referendum (there were Swedish observers among many others), and 99% wanted to be independent. Georgia subsequently attempted to overthrow the Ossetian leader. The conflict culminated this summer.
And if you bothered to check, you’d be able to see that, when the shit hit the fan, Ossetians spontaneously went en masse to Russia - NOT Georgia.
The bombings unambiguously started from the Georgian side, not the Russian one. And yet, you folks accuse the latter of starting the conflict.
If Russia really wanted to annex anything, they would have done so. They wouldn’t be signing a truce.
But, again, don’t bother with facts. They have this sneaky habit of getting in the way. RED = BAD is all you need to know.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Those Ossetians weren’t “declared” Russians. They actually filled up forms to get a Russia citizenship.
Two years ago, Ossetians voted on the status of their land in a referendum (there were Swedish observers among many others), and 99% wanted to be independent. Georgia subsequently attempted to overthrow the Ossetian leader. The conflict culminated this summer.
And if you bothered to check, you’d be able to see that, when the shit hit the fan, Ossetians spontaneously went en masse to Russia - NOT Georgia.
The bombings unambiguously started from the Georgian side, not the Russian one. And yet, you folks accuse the latter of starting the conflict.
If Russia really wanted to annex anything, they would have done so. They wouldn’t be signing a truce.
But, again, don’t bother with facts. They have this sneaky habit of getting in the way. RED = BAD is all you need to know.[/quote]
Signing a truce while they convoy is on the way to the Georgian capital.
Nice summarizing the Russian propaganda.
[quote]mldj wrote:
When you comment about hypocrisy in Russia’s actions, you must take into consideration the order in which recent events ocurred - who was the first to break the line.
You pride yourself on being American, but don’t let this to cloud your judgement.
If you see things only in black and white, and you think of yourself, i.e. USA, as white, you are forced to label Russia as black.[/quote]
I do not understand the Russian mentality of “backing the separtists” in Georgia. You’ve got Lixy talking about how great the Russians are because they are backing separtists, yet, they were AGAINST Muslim separtists in Kosovo, and annhilated Muslim separtists in Chechia.
That to me is hypocrisy.
Either they are for separtists or they are not. They clearly, by their actions elsewhere, are not. They are doing this to get back at Georgia, punishing them for their own separation from Russia, for wanting to be a member of NATO and for being allies with the US.
Tell me I am wrong about this.
You insist that Russians should either play by the rules (against separatists in Kosovo, ergo against separatists in South Ossetia) or be labeled as hypocritical.
Re-read this part of my previous post:
Of course, Russia has not argued in this crisis that it is simply doing what the West did in Kosovo - that would undermine its own argument that states should not be broken up without agreement. But everyone knows that underneath, Kosovo is not far from its mind.
It’s quite understandable, when put in the context of recent events.
If someone else in the gym broke the rules, and you didn’t like that, you’ll go and tell him he’s fucking up. If he didn’t take note, it would be hypocritical of him, to patronize you, when you break the same rule.
Very crude analogy, but I think it explains where they come from.
Nobody’s claiming that there are good or bad countries here, like Palmerston said, there are eternal and perpetual interests, not friends. But to vilify actions, already exculpated by yourself in similar situation…errr…
P.S. I had to search exculpate in the dictionary, damn, what a word.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
mldj wrote:
When you comment about hypocrisy in Russia’s actions, you must take into consideration the order in which recent events ocurred - who was the first to break the line.
You pride yourself on being American, but don’t let this to cloud your judgement.
If you see things only in black and white, and you think of yourself, i.e. USA, as white, you are forced to label Russia as black.
I do not understand the Russian mentality of “backing the separtists” in Georgia. You’ve got Lixy talking about how great the Russians are because they are backing separtists, yet, they were AGAINST Muslim separtists in Kosovo, and annhilated Muslim separtists in Chechia.
That to me is hypocrisy.
Either they are for separtists or they are not. They clearly, by their actions elsewhere, are not. They are doing this to get back at Georgia, punishing them for their own separation from Russia, for wanting to be a member of NATO and for being allies with the US.
Tell me I am wrong about this. [/quote]
On the flipside we assist seperatist across the ocean from us, yet don’t want Russians assisting seperatists at their borders.
So according to this, Saakashvili kinda overestimated the Georgian-American friendship.
What a fuckin moron, willing to put his folks to the russian sword for a gamble.
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
So according to this, Saakashvili kinda overestimated the Georgian-American friendship.
What a fuckin moron, willing to put his folks to the russian sword for a gamble.
[/quote]
From what I have gathered in the last few days the state dept was telling him to cool it and that we were not going to get involved. At the same time Cheney was giving him a wink and a nod or implying we had his back.
Hmm…limited term elected officials and carrier bureacrats not on the same page. Shocking.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
So according to this, Saakashvili kinda overestimated the Georgian-American friendship.
What a fuckin moron, willing to put his folks to the russian sword for a gamble.
From what I have gathered in the last few days the state dept was telling him to cool it and that we were not going to get involved. At the same time Cheney was giving him a wink and a nod or implying we had his back.
Hmm…limited term elected officials and carrier bureacrats not on the same page. Shocking.[/quote]
The state department and Condi were pretty clear that he should not respond to the Russians provocation.
And make no mistake, the Russians provoked this. They started their cyber attack 3 weeks prior to to the shooting and the had also built up forces in the area as well.
Georgia was put in a no win situation. Fight back against the bully or get pushed around.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
dhickey wrote:
etaco wrote:
Georgia has been trying to draw us into their conflict with the Russians for years. They may be figuring that this is their last best chance to do so before a new administration comes in that is less likely to stick its neck out for them.
Russia has been trying to draw Georgia into a conflict for years. They are systematically packing Ossatia with Russian to gain support for the region to become a part of Russia, not to be independant as Ossatians have been wanting. If you think Russia isn’t funding insurgencies against Georgia you are kidding your self.
Russia is wants Georgia, Ukraine, and other surrounding territories. They know western EU won’t do a think about it as they are dependant on Russia for oil and natural gas.
Those that think Russia is innocent in all of this and they don’t have expansionary dreams is delusional. They are flush with oil and natural gas money and are using it, along with diversions of money from other markets to rebuild there ancient military.
…
Exactly.
Agreed.[/quote]
Precisely. wait a minute…
Dhickey’s reply made some unwarranted assumptions on my post. For the record, I do not think Russia is innocent in any way. Innocence and guilt are concepts barely within the domain of geopolitics anyway. Their interests in the region and in Georgia are certainly contrary to ours on many fronts. While there have been provocations either way on this for years, Saakashvili undeniable was the one to cross the Rubicon (almost literally), enabling Russia to give Georgia its spanking. He had no good options, but he chose the worst, apparently assuming that he could escalate things and we’d risk our asses to save him. That’s quite presumptive for a “friend”.
The dynamite has been piled up for years, but Sakaasvili was the one who decided to smoke.
I don’t think Russia is all that wrong in what they did.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Imagine if America declared everyone in Ontario American citizens, backed a separatist movement and then invaded.[/quote]
Canada would be in trouble, eh?
[quote]Ren wrote:
I don’t think Russia is all that wrong in what they did.[/quote]
Are you serious? Wow.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
On the flipside we assist seperatist across the ocean from us, yet don’t want Russians assisting seperatists at their borders.[/quote]
We do not want them assisting separtists in this case because Georgia is our ally.
Russia does not assist separtists. They are not some noble nation which helps out the little guy. The only reason they helped the separtists is to get back at Georgia who they percieve to be a threat.
Other than that, they have a record of smashing separtists. Like I said, look at Chechnia. Here is a nation which declared independence from Russia. Did they help them with their separation? Hell no, the crushed the bastards.
Did the Russians back the separtists in Kosovo? No! They backed the Serbs who were committing genocide against the Albanians.
So that is why I believe they are hypocrites. If they were to take over Georgia and put it under Russian control, you can bet your ass they would then move to take the areas which the separtists now control.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Sloth wrote:
On the flipside we assist seperatist across the ocean from us, yet don’t want Russians assisting seperatists at their borders.
We do not want them assisting separtists in this case because Georgia is our ally.
Russia does not assist separtists. They are not some noble nation which helps out the little guy. The only reason they helped the separtists is to get back at Georgia who they percieve to be a threat.
Other than that, they have a record of smashing separtists. Like I said, look at Chechnia. Here is a nation which declared independence from Russia. Did they help them with their separation? Hell no, the crushed the bastards.
Did the Russians back the separtists in Kosovo? No! They backed the Serbs who were committing genocide against the Albanians.
So that is why I believe they are hypocrites. If they were to take over Georgia and put it under Russian control, you can bet your ass they would then move to take the areas which the separtists now control.[/quote]
Agreed. Ask the Chechens how much the Russians love the separatists.