[quote]Otep wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Otep wrote:
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
What exactly do the conservatives have against libertarians? We both support a free market system, so we agree on that. Is it the social issues? As a libertarian, I believe that the government should stay out of matters such as marriage and reproduction. For me, the issue is not whether abortion or gay marriage are right or wrong (and for the record, I do think abortion is wrong except in certain cases), but rather, do we want Big Brother sticking his nose in the bedroom and the uterus. For me, the answer is a definitive “no.”[/quote]
If you read Sloth’s description, you would understand Conservatives do not, in fact, support a free market system. Indeed, it seems they support lamenting the loss of large families and religion, and using the state to enforce progressive social safety nets. Who knew?[/quote]I don’t understand what’s so hard to grasp about this. He is not saying that at all. What he is and has been saying forever, as have I, is that when you do not have a citizenry that voluntarily bridles it’s passions in what amounts to a socially conservative (read Judeo-Cristian) manner the natural, indeed the inevitable savior as the families disintegrate because everybody’s busy getting laid is the state. For the 500th time. My home town of Detroit is a ready made 157 square mile object lesson in this very thing. Almost half the population is under 40 and practically the whole population is on public assistance because they crank out kids like rabbits and there is no faithful loving responsible family structure to care for the women and children.
People can prattle on til the end of time, but this nation was founded on the assumption that men would live like Christians and govern themselves, hence limited government. The 60’s destroyed that and here we are in the midst of a very predictable national meltdown. This is only debatable because people hate Christianity and will blow their brains before admitting that even Jefferson and Franklin declared the necessity of religion to the long term survival of their fledgling nation and though they certainly didn’t faithfully embrace it’s orthodoxy, Christianity was their favorite.
Providence plays a central role in the Declaration of Independence and providence is a distinctly Christian doctrine whereby whatsoever comes to pass in time has it’s origin in the mind and oversight of God. Jefferson called it “divine providence” straight from the lips of Whitfield and his great awakening, who was a staunch Calvinistic reformation protestant Christian which would horrify people today.[/quote]
You are right to guess that I disagree with Sloth’s opinion; You are wrong to guess it is because I hate Christianity… or whatever it was you think I was disagreeing with.
I’ll allow that the crumbling of traditional social institutions ocurred alongside the development of the welfare state, and indeed they provide the same range of social services. But where Sloth throws up his hands and allows that somehow it is appropriate that I pay for a denizen of your city’s childcare, or some such product it would be inhumane for the poor to be without, I maintain that such an idea is rediculous because it so egregiously abrogates my freedom.
In essence, he has been broken to the welfare state because of his lack of belief in his fellow man to sack up and take responsibility themselves. I suffer no such despair. I honestly have no idea where you stand, aside from… Detroit, I guess.[/quote]
You’re trying to shoe-horn a political-economic philosophy into the wrong society. You’re standing there wondering why that cart isn’t going anywhere, anymore, while I’m trying to locate and bring back the horse.