[quote]Varqanir wrote:
whether a society has the right to force someone to be someone that they were born not to be.
[/quote]
Well said.
The answer is that it does not. (Murder/rape/molestation/etc. excepted, for perfectly justifiable reasons).
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Rap battle video[/quote]
That was so awesome. Freddie by a longshot.
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
whether a society has the right to force someone to be someone that they were born not to be.
[/quote]
Well said.
The answer is that it does not. (Murder/rape/molestation/etc. excepted, for perfectly justifiable reasons).[/quote]
Truly hard-wired pedophiles kinda throw a monkey wrench into equation.
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
whether a society has the right to force someone to be someone that they were born not to be.
[/quote]
Well said.
The answer is that it does not. (Murder/rape/molestation/etc. excepted, for perfectly justifiable reasons).[/quote]
Truly hard-wired pedophiles kinda throw a monkey wrench into equation. [/quote]
Do you really think so?
The maxim is not, “everyone can be exactly who they think they’re supposed to be.” It’s: “Everyone can be exactly who they think they’re supposed to be, provided that…yadda yadda…public safety…yadda yadda.”
That a child cannot legally give consent precludes pederasts from being allowed to ply their trade openly. Evil is by definition done. No such analog can be found in the gay equation.
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
whether a society has the right to force someone to be someone that they were born not to be.
[/quote]
Well said.
The answer is that it does not. (Murder/rape/molestation/etc. excepted, for perfectly justifiable reasons).[/quote]
Truly hard-wired pedophiles kinda throw a monkey wrench into equation. [/quote]
Do you really think so?
The maxim is not, “everyone can be exactly who they think they’re supposed to be.” It’s: “Everyone can be exactly who they think they’re supposed to be, provided that…yadda yadda…public safety…yadda yadda.”
That a child cannot legally give consent precludes pederasts from being allowed to ply their trade openly. Evil is by definition done. No such analog can be found in the gay equation.[/quote]
To be absolutely clear I am not equating homosexual conduct with pedophilia. But I also think many pedophiles are simply hard wired from birth to be pedophiles and there isn’t much to be done with them except to lock them up and throw away the key.
In one sense, it isn’t their fault they are the way the are, but at the same time they can’t be allowed to roam freely in society because they pose such a grave threat.
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
To be absolutely clear I am not equating homosexual conduct with pedophilia. But I also think many pedophiles are simply hard wired from birth to be pedophiles and there isn’t much to be done with them except to lock them up and throw away the key. In one sense, it isn’t their fault they are the way the are, but at the same time they can’t be allowed to roam freely in society because they pose such a grave threat. [/quote]
In much the same way a crocodile can’t be faulted for being a crocodile, but we’ll kill one anyways if it chooses to kill a person?
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
whether a society has the right to force someone to be someone that they were born not to be.
[/quote]
Well said.
The answer is that it does not. (Murder/rape/molestation/etc. excepted, for perfectly justifiable reasons).[/quote]
Truly hard-wired pedophiles kinda throw a monkey wrench into equation. [/quote]
Do you really think so?
The maxim is not, “everyone can be exactly who they think they’re supposed to be.” It’s: “Everyone can be exactly who they think they’re supposed to be, provided that…yadda yadda…public safety…yadda yadda.”
That a child cannot legally give consent precludes pederasts from being allowed to ply their trade openly. Evil is by definition done. No such analog can be found in the gay equation.[/quote]
To be absolutely clear I am not equating homosexual conduct with pedophilia. But I also think many pedophiles are simply hard wired from birth to be pedophiles and there isn’t much to be done with them except to lock them up and throw away the key. In one sense, it isn’t their fault they are the way the are, but at the same time they can’t be allowed to roam freely in society because they pose such a grave threat. [/quote]
This is where the gay marriage argument comes in. Sure they are born with a mental illness of some sort that is similar to pedophilia, key difference is they don’t pose a threat to society if they act on their urges. But how does something simply go from not being a threat to being celebrated and encouraged by government/society?
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
To be absolutely clear I am not equating homosexual conduct with pedophilia. But I also think many pedophiles are simply hard wired from birth to be pedophiles and there isn’t much to be done with them except to lock them up and throw away the key. In one sense, it isn’t their fault they are the way the are, but at the same time they can’t be allowed to roam freely in society because they pose such a grave threat.[/quote]
Yep, I agree.
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Rap battle video[/quote]
That was so awesome. Freddie by a longshot.[/quote]
Easy victory for Mercury. I love those rap battle videos!
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
And if there were enough “queers” like you, wouldn’t you agitate to change society so that they would be more accepting of your inborn nature and way of life?[/quote]
V, I am not a homophobe by any stretch of the imagination. I am not saying a homosexual should go through some sort of psychological transformation, like your star trek episode and yes I have seen that episode, but there is no unbiased psychological evidence that shows homosexuals are born that way. Most evidence shows there it is more likely learned. My boys both like watching Princess Sofia on Disney Jr, but I tell them that boys do not act like girls. I teach them that men act different from girls. There are parents that encourage their boys to act like girls and girls to act like boys. Is it born in or taught? I think more study and evidence needs to be found to know for sure.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
There are parents that encourage their boys to act like girls and girls to act like boys.
[/quote]
But most parents don’t, and many of their kids end up gay. I doubt very much that Dick Cheney encouraged his daughter to be a lesbian.
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
There are parents that encourage their boys to act like girls and girls to act like boys.
[/quote]
But most parents don’t, and many of their kids end up gay. I doubt very much that Dick Cheney encouraged his daughter to be a lesbian. [/quote]
I guess you did not read my last sentence. Is it born in or learned?
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
There are parents that encourage their boys to act like girls and girls to act like boys.
[/quote]
But most parents don’t, and many of their kids end up gay. I doubt very much that Dick Cheney encouraged his daughter to be a lesbian. [/quote]
I guess you did not read my last sentence. Is it born in or learned?
[/quote]
As with pretty much everything, an inextricable combination of nature and nurture is at play. My suspicion is that nature has more to do with this one, given how visceral and impulsive my own heterosexuality is. Anyway, genetics are almost certainly a factor:
And it’s likely that much more will be discovered as time goes on.
But either way, even if homosexuality were the product of nurture to a substantial degree, it doesn’t really matter at all. If I’m permitted to descend into tautology, what you are is what you are. That you have never raped or murdered anyone is as much a product of the external stimuli provided to you as of the genetically-determined ways in which you reacted to those stimuli. And yet that doesn’t make you any less of a “not murderer” than you’d be if you were genetically incapable of murder.
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
There are parents that encourage their boys to act like girls and girls to act like boys.
[/quote]
But most parents don’t, and many of their kids end up gay. I doubt very much that Dick Cheney encouraged his daughter to be a lesbian. [/quote]
I guess you did not read my last sentence. Is it born in or learned?
[/quote]
As with pretty much everything, an inextricable combination of nature and nurture is at play. My suspicion is that nature has more to do with this one, given how visceral and impulsive my own heterosexuality is. Anyway, genetics are almost certainly a factor:
And it’s likely that much more will be discovered as time goes on.
But either way, even if homosexuality were the product of nurture to a substantial degree, it doesn’t really matter at all. If I’m permitted to descend into tautology, what you are is what you are. That you have never raped or murdered anyone is as much a product of the external stimuli provided to you as of the genetically-determined ways in which you reacted to those stimuli. And yet that doesn’t make you any less of a “not murderer” than you’d be if you were genetically incapable of murder.[/quote]
If we are animals then we are all capable of murder.
Again we need unbiased research. Homosexuals will say there is a “Gay Gene”, Murderers say there is a “Murder Gene”, If actually proven then why not screen everyone for the “Murderer Gene” when they are born, and just imprison them then. We don’t why? People can make choices. We can choose to do what is right or wrong, if we are taught what is right or wrong. I am not saying being homosexual is right or wrong. We do not know because one, the research is not unbiased, and two not definitive.
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[/quote]
Now lets look at this article. Is there a “Gay Gene”? If you believe in the survival of the fittest or evolution then the “Gay Gene” is a mutation. If it was not a mutation then all of us would have it. Now with Mutations if the Gene helps the species it will flourish and increase in numbers. Now if a mutation can flourish it must be able to reproduce. Can homosexuals reproduce without help? Can two female cats reproduce? Can two male dogs reproduce?
Do I believe that a homosexual couple should have the same rights in this country as a heterosexual couple has? Yes I do.
I do not believe the government should legislate morality. I also do not believe the government should force religious people to accept homosexuality as being ok or moral.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:I also do not believe the government should force religious people to accept homosexuality as being ok or moral.
[/quote]
How does it? Allowing gay marriage is allowing equality of opportunity. Banning gay marriage is the government legislating morality. It’s forcing churches not to allow something even if they want to.
Churches should be allowed to allow gay marriage or not allow it in their halls. It should be entirely up to the church. The government has no business in it. And yet allowing gay marriage in a state is not forcing religious people to accept it in the least bit. The government cannot force something as moral anyways. If gambling is illegal and you view it as immoral, the government making it legal doesn’t force you to accept it as moral.
[quote]H factor wrote:
Churches should be allowed to allow gay marriage or not allow it in their halls. It should be entirely up to the church. The government has no business in it. [/quote]
I am glad we both agree with this, but it really is not a far stretch for the government for force it.
Why you say? Lets look at the ACA/Obamacare. They are forcing Religious Institutions to buy contraceptives for their employees. Not churches, but Religious Institutions. For Example Catholic Charities, Catholic Hospitals, and the like. It is against their dogma to allow contraceptives, but the government is forcing them to. Do you see why I am cautious about it?
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
Churches should be allowed to allow gay marriage or not allow it in their halls. It should be entirely up to the church. The government has no business in it. [/quote]
I am glad we both agree with this, but it really is not a far stretch for the government for force it.
Why you say? Lets look at the ACA/Obamacare. They are forcing Religious Institutions to buy contraceptives for their employees. Not churches, but Religious Institutions. For Example Catholic Charities, Catholic Hospitals, and the like. It is against their dogma to allow contraceptives, but the government is forcing them to. Do you see why I am cautious about it?
[/quote]
What about businesses not hiring someone because they are Gay, or serving them in their restaurant? Do you think the government should force that?
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
Churches should be allowed to allow gay marriage or not allow it in their halls. It should be entirely up to the church. The government has no business in it. [/quote]
I am glad we both agree with this, but it really is not a far stretch for the government for force it.
Why you say? Lets look at the ACA/Obamacare. They are forcing Religious Institutions to buy contraceptives for their employees. Not churches, but Religious Institutions. For Example Catholic Charities, Catholic Hospitals, and the like. It is against their dogma to allow contraceptives, but the government is forcing them to. Do you see why I am cautious about it?
[/quote]
What about businesses not hiring someone because they are Gay, or serving them in their restaurant? Do you think the government should force that?[/quote]
No.
This:
Is BS.
This:
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2013/September/Flower-Shop-Owner-Sued-for-Refusing-Gay-Wedding/
Is BS.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
There are parents that encourage their boys to act like girls and girls to act like boys.
[/quote]
But most parents don’t, and many of their kids end up gay. I doubt very much that Dick Cheney encouraged his daughter to be a lesbian. [/quote]
I guess you did not read my last sentence. Is it born in or learned?
[/quote]
As with pretty much everything, an inextricable combination of nature and nurture is at play. My suspicion is that nature has more to do with this one, given how visceral and impulsive my own heterosexuality is. Anyway, genetics are almost certainly a factor:
And it’s likely that much more will be discovered as time goes on.
But either way, even if homosexuality were the product of nurture to a substantial degree, it doesn’t really matter at all. If I’m permitted to descend into tautology, what you are is what you are. That you have never raped or murdered anyone is as much a product of the external stimuli provided to you as of the genetically-determined ways in which you reacted to those stimuli. And yet that doesn’t make you any less of a “not murderer” than you’d be if you were genetically incapable of murder.[/quote]
If we are animals then we are all capable of murder.[/quote]
Yes, that isn’t the point. Actually, that’s exactly the point. You’re not a murderer as a result of your nurture; this doesn’t make you any less of a “not murderer” than a hypothetical being incapable of murder. Neither of you is a murderer.
I’m not saying it’s definitive; it isn’t. But that research isn’t biased.
Regarding your post about genetic predisposition and evolution, there are a great many things you can read about that. It is not simplistic like that.