Gay Marriage: Traditional Marriage Predates State and Church

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
361

[quote]GLOCKTHNP wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
…who I lost when I met Jesus. [/quote]

Where did you meet Jesus? At the grocery store? Movie theater? Flea market?

Is this the same as when people claim to “find” Jesus?[/quote]

You cannot deny what is in a mans inner being. Something no other organism in this universe has. Just because you have chosen not to have a relationship with God does not mean he does not or I do not. Closed minded is he that has chosen the wide gate.[/quote]

A shizophreniac is he who hears voices.

362

[quote]orion wrote:<<< A shizophreniac is he who hears voices. >>>[/quote]I’ve never heard voices.

363

[quote]GLOCKTHNP wrote:
Once a nations value and morale system breaks down, the family breaks down, once the family breaks down, the nation breaks down. We are watching it before our very eyes! Our nation’s blessing’s ceased the minute we tolerated wrongful acts upon innocent lives for nothing more than in most cases than selfishness. A life is terminated because some selfish girl is seventeen and still wants to go to spring break in two-months. Great reason to kill someone I guess for some. That is an issue all can see whether you believe or not. Nevertheless, some medical life threatening reasons may warrant abortion in very few cases.

Now, desecrating the meaning of something that is over 2000-years-old and is sacred to us is wrong. Call gay marriage, gay marriage, but do not call it marriage. Deep down in every person they know it is wrong, yet we are human and weak. I know you seek to desecrate everything that is woven in the bible because you seek to live upon your own accord without a conscious. However, that conscious will never cease because it was put there by your creator now matter how much you deny it. That is fine deny it, he gave you that choice to make.[/quote]Pretty good man

364

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Gay’ family kids 7 times more likely to be homosexual

'Gay' family kids 7 times more likely to be homosexual

Not that I’m endorsing the Church’s position here or even ostensibly supporting Zeb’s position, but at least one study seems to suggest that openly gay parents may have some influence on the child’s sexuality. Now, whether that’s a “non-genetic” cause as Zeb alludes to (what is that exactly? “catching the ghey” like some cold or flu?) or, that those children are more open to other sexuality because they feel the support to declare such is clearly open to question given the stigma that still exists today for homosexuals.

Now, in fairness to forelife’s point, we must contrast the above to the long-term outcome of children in the foster care system. Children in the foster care system “experience higher rates of physical and psychiatric morbidity than the general population…they were found to have double the incidence of depression, 20% as compared to 10% and were found to have a higher rate of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) than combat veterans with 25% of those studied having PTSD. Children in foster care have a higher probability of having Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, and deficits in executive functioning, anxiety as well other developmental problems…higher degrees of incarceration, poverty, homelessness, and suicide.”

Sounds to me like a qualified homosexual couple might be a pretty positive trade-off when comparing the long-term outcome of children in the foster care system to the dubious chance of them “catching the ghey”.

That said, I take no position relative to whether such adoptions and such should be allowed and I am not putting forth any personal position on gay marriage. [/quote]

Children in foster care are also much more likely to have had a mother who used drugs and alcohol during pregnancy, or parents with psychiatric disorders.

Anyway, I think a study would be simple. Compare the rate of homosexuality in kids adopted by gay couples, and those born to a gay parent and raise by a gay couple (I know several).

365

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Discussed to death in other threads. Yes, it’s great if a child can be raised by healthy, competent biological parents. However, there are millions of children with abusive parents, deceased parents, etc. who are far better off being raised by loving, committed adoptive gay parents than staying in a toxic family situation, or being raised by an institution.
[/quote]

This is a patently false self-serving post. There are no long-term studies to prove that children are better off living with two homosexuals. Furthermore, there is no proof that being homosexual is genetic. That means that perhaps (just maybe) children being raised by two homosexuals would have a much higher degree of becoming a homosexual. Certainly until we know how one becomes a homosexual (or why) we should never put children in the care of homosexuals.

Stop the propaganda forlife it’s really getting old.[/quote]

Not being a devils advocate, I am honestly curious, why does homosexuality=bad? [/quote]

It’s bad on a lot of levels, procreation probably being at the top of the list. But let’s look at the governments own CDC statistics shall we?

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/index.htm

[/quote]

Wow, I was not aware of that. I am pretty libertarian, so I don’t personally feel its the governments business. Do you think legalizing gay marriage would see those statistics increase?

Brother Chris, would you elaborate? I know a few gay people that would say it is completely natural. Also, Im aware of several versions (I can’t think of a better word to describe it) of natural law, I’m not well read enough to say they all go against gay marriage.
[/quote]

Apparently it’s so unnatural it’s existed since the dawn of mankind. [/quote]

Which is probably when traditionalists Christians would say that the unnatural effects of sin entered the world-though homosexuality also occurs in animals.

366

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]cvb wrote:

Children need a mom and a dad. Both are extremely important.

[/quote]

I completely disagree with that, there are countless examples of people raised by single parents coming up fine /nitpicking[/quote]

True, there is no evidence that when other factors are eliminated, individuals end up psychologically, or economically better off if they came from a complete family or had a divided, or single parent family.

367

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Not always.[/quote]

Always.[/quote]

Don’t be an asshat. Not always. Because funny enough, your church has had plenty of experience about how the backlash from hiding their clergy diddling little boys would work out and yet they persist on hiding it.[/quote]

That’s not really on the basis of truth, which we were talking about. Fools will always ignore tradition to their own peril.

368

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Gay’ family kids 7 times more likely to be homosexual

'Gay' family kids 7 times more likely to be homosexual

Not that I’m endorsing the Church’s position here or even ostensibly supporting Zeb’s position, but at least one study seems to suggest that openly gay parents may have some influence on the child’s sexuality. Now, whether that’s a “non-genetic” cause as Zeb alludes to (what is that exactly? “catching the ghey” like some cold or flu?) or, that those children are more open to other sexuality because they feel the support to declare such is clearly open to question given the stigma that still exists today for homosexuals.

Now, in fairness to forelife’s point, we must contrast the above to the long-term outcome of children in the foster care system. Children in the foster care system “experience higher rates of physical and psychiatric morbidity than the general population…they were found to have double the incidence of depression, 20% as compared to 10% and were found to have a higher rate of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) than combat veterans with 25% of those studied having PTSD. Children in foster care have a higher probability of having Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, and deficits in executive functioning, anxiety as well other developmental problems…higher degrees of incarceration, poverty, homelessness, and suicide.”

Sounds to me like a qualified homosexual couple might be a pretty positive trade-off when comparing the long-term outcome of children in the foster care system to the dubious chance of them “catching the ghey”.

That said, I take no position relative to whether such adoptions and such should be allowed and I am not putting forth any personal position on gay marriage. [/quote]

Children in foster care are also much more likely to have had a mother who used drugs and alcohol during pregnancy, or parents with psychiatric disorders.

Anyway, I think a study would be simple. Compare the rate of homosexuality in kids adopted by gay couples, and those born to a gay parent and raise by a gay couple (I know several).[/quote]

I’m sure you’ll give us your anecdotal evidence to prove your point. The fact remains that there is no enough evidence both ways of what happens with children who are raised by gay couples. However, there is not a lot of evidence to what happens when a pride of lions raises a lamb either, still can guess which way it will fall.

369

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Not always.[/quote]

Always.[/quote]

Don’t be an asshat. Not always. Because funny enough, your church has had plenty of experience about how the backlash from hiding their clergy diddling little boys would work out and yet they persist on hiding it.[/quote]

That’s not really on the basis of truth, which we were talking about. Fools will always ignore tradition to their own peril.[/quote]

You say truth, I say prove it. Which inevitably you can’t. Your absolutes are amusing though.

370

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Which is probably when traditionalists Christians would say that the unnatural effects of sin entered the world-though homosexuality also occurs in animals.[/quote]

…the old ‘our nature’ is dumb animals gig. So things that dumb animals do we can do. Dumb animals also eat their own feces and kill their young. The former is a clinical disorder, the latter you usually get thrown into prison for last time I checked.

371

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]cvb wrote:

Children need a mom and a dad. Both are extremely important.

[/quote]

I completely disagree with that, there are countless examples of people raised by single parents coming up fine /nitpicking[/quote]

True, there is no evidence that when other factors are eliminated, individuals end up psychologically, or economically better off if they came from a complete family or had a divided, or single parent family.[/quote]

Actually there is. Several of the posters have posted links to the studies.

372

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Which is probably when traditionalists Christians would say that the unnatural effects of sin entered the world-though homosexuality also occurs in animals.[/quote]

…the old ‘our nature’ is dumb animals gig. So things that dumb animals do we can do. Dumb animals also eat their own feces and kill their young. The former is a clinical disorder, the latter you usually get thrown into prison for last time I checked.[/quote]

Actually I hold that human homosexuality is a sin and that sin entered the world by man. I was responding to his remark that homosexualityhas been around since the dawn of man. And “our nature” is not the same as “natural”.

373

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Not always.[/quote]

Always.[/quote]

Don’t be an asshat. Not always. Because funny enough, your church has had plenty of experience about how the backlash from hiding their clergy diddling little boys would work out and yet they persist on hiding it.[/quote]

That’s not really on the basis of truth, which we were talking about. Fools will always ignore tradition to their own peril.[/quote]

You say truth, I say prove it. Which inevitably you can’t. Your absolutes are amusing though.[/quote]

Prove what? You just ask me questions like, “what makes you the authority to determine that.” I mean really, if we’re going to be debating if someone has authority to make a reasoned argument, then it’s going to come down ridiculous conclusions.

374

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
And “our nature” is not the same as “natural”.[/quote]

Wait…what?

375

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
And “our nature” is not the same as “natural”.[/quote]

Wait…what?[/quote]

You said it was an argument that “our nature” was the same as dumb animals.

(which is not true)

But the argument was that what dumb animals do is natural.

What dumb animals do can be natural, but not be in “our” nature.

376

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]GLOCKTHNP wrote:
Once a nations value and morale system breaks down, the family breaks down, once the family breaks down, the nation breaks down. We are watching it before our very eyes! Our nation’s blessing’s ceased the minute we tolerated wrongful acts upon innocent lives for nothing more than in most cases than selfishness. A life is terminated because some selfish girl is seventeen and still wants to go to spring break in two-months. Great reason to kill someone I guess for some. That is an issue all can see whether you believe or not. Nevertheless, some medical life threatening reasons may warrant abortion in very few cases.

Now, desecrating the meaning of something that is over 2000-years-old and is sacred to us is wrong. Call gay marriage, gay marriage, but do not call it marriage. Deep down in every person they know it is wrong, yet we are human and weak. I know you seek to desecrate everything that is woven in the bible because you seek to live upon your own accord without a conscious. However, that conscious will never cease because it was put there by your creator now matter how much you deny it. That is fine deny it, he gave you that choice to make.[/quote]Pretty good man
[/quote]x3

377

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]GLOCKTHNP wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
…who I lost when I met Jesus. [/quote]

Where did you meet Jesus? At the grocery store? Movie theater? Flea market?

Is this the same as when people claim to “find” Jesus?[/quote]

You cannot deny what is in a mans inner being. Something no other organism in this universe has. Just because you have chosen not to have a relationship with God does not mean he does not or I do not. Closed minded is he that has chosen the wide gate.[/quote]

A shizophreniac is he who hears voices.

[/quote]

The prideful and fearful. I have walked both paths have you?

378

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]GLOCKTHNP wrote:
Once a nations value and morale system breaks down, the family breaks down, once the family breaks down, the nation breaks down. We are watching it before our very eyes! Our nation’s blessing’s ceased the minute we tolerated wrongful acts upon innocent lives for nothing more than in most cases than selfishness. A life is terminated because some selfish girl is seventeen and still wants to go to spring break in two-months. Great reason to kill someone I guess for some. That is an issue all can see whether you believe or not. Nevertheless, some medical life threatening reasons may warrant abortion in very few cases.

Now, desecrating the meaning of something that is over 2000-years-old and is sacred to us is wrong. Call gay marriage, gay marriage, but do not call it marriage. Deep down in every person they know it is wrong, yet we are human and weak. I know you seek to desecrate everything that is woven in the bible because you seek to live upon your own accord without a conscious. However, that conscious will never cease because it was put there by your creator now matter how much you deny it. That is fine deny it, he gave you that choice to make.[/quote]Pretty good man
[/quote]x3
[/quote]

-100,000

379

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Discussed to death in other threads. Yes, it’s great if a child can be raised by healthy, competent biological parents. However, there are millions of children with abusive parents, deceased parents, etc. who are far better off being raised by loving, committed adoptive gay parents than staying in a toxic family situation, or being raised by an institution.
[/quote]

This is a patently false self-serving post. There are no long-term studies to prove that children are better off living with two homosexuals. Furthermore, there is no proof that being homosexual is genetic. That means that perhaps (just maybe) children being raised by two homosexuals would have a much higher degree of becoming a homosexual. Certainly until we know how one becomes a homosexual (or why) we should never put children in the care of homosexuals.

Stop the propaganda forlife it’s really getting old.[/quote]

Not being a devils advocate, I am honestly curious, why does homosexuality=bad? [/quote]

It’s bad on a lot of levels, procreation probably being at the top of the list. But let’s look at the governments own CDC statistics shall we?

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/index.htm

[/quote]

Wow, I was not aware of that. I am pretty libertarian, so I don’t personally feel its the governments business. Do you think legalizing gay marriage would see those statistics increase?

Brother Chris, would you elaborate? I know a few gay people that would say it is completely natural. Also, Im aware of several versions (I can’t think of a better word to describe it) of natural law, I’m not well read enough to say they all go against gay marriage.
[/quote]

Apparently it’s so unnatural it’s existed since the dawn of mankind. [/quote]

Which is probably when traditionalists Christians would say that the unnatural effects of sin entered the world-though homosexuality also occurs in animals.[/quote]

It cracks me up when people use animal’s homosexuality to human homosexuality. An animal knows two things that its instinct tells it, 1). It is horny and rubbing its penis on anything makes it feel better hence homosexuality 2). To continue to do this until instinctively it finds the right hole and relives this urge to breed. If animals had hands like humans there would be a lot less homosexuality and more masturbation. This is a poor excuse for human homosexuality and always will be.

380

“Deep down in every person they know it is wrong”

A fire. Please, go die in it. And all your loved ones. Please.