Gay Marriage: Traditional Marriage Predates State and Church

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
341

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You guys are a blast. I was already clean and sober over year, had a job and a beautiful (quote so actually) girlfriend who I lost when I met Jesus. 26 years later now. You guys are no less vulnerable than I was. He just let me know. Forlife was once “Elder Forlife” huh? That explains a lot.[/quote]

So you admit that you were, in fact, vulnerable? The more someone NEEDS structure, consolation, hope, guidance, and absolute answers, the more likely they are to adopt a belief system claiming to provide this comfort.

The actual belief system doesn’t much matter, but it’s easier for people to accept it if they’re from a culture that already accepts it.

Your “meeting Jesus” was no different than my Mormon converts “meeting Jesus”. Their spiritual experience was just as poignant, powerful, meaningful, and life transforming as your own experience.

That’s what you don’t get.

People have these amazingly transformational spiritual experiences across a broad range of religious belief systems. Obviously, the experience itself says nothing about what is actually real, since these belief systems are so very different.

Your experience (and any ongoing spiritual experiences) mean a great deal to you, but they say nothing about objective reality. It’s emotional, subconscious, confirmatory bias, whether or not you recognize it as such.

342

Chris, if you want to argue a king owns his subjects, go for it. I don’t think most people would consider a king’s subjects to be slaves, but even if they did, I don’t support monarchy over democracy.

I just think the idea of owning another human being is repulsive, and was surprised you support it. Along with condemning gays, and expecting women to stay silent in church and have their heads covered, you are indeed medieval in your thinking and myopic in your piety.

Like I said, I think you could learn some things from your fellow Catholic, Pat.

343

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You guys are a blast. I was already clean and sober over year, had a job and a beautiful (quote so actually) girlfriend who I lost when I met Jesus. 26 years later now. You guys are no less vulnerable than I was. He just let me know. Forlife was once “Elder Forlife” huh? That explains a lot.[/quote]

So you admit that you were, in fact, vulnerable? The more someone NEEDS structure, consolation, hope, guidance, and absolute answers, the more likely they are to adopt a belief system claiming to provide this comfort.

The actual belief system doesn’t much matter, but it’s easier for people to accept it if they’re from a culture that already accepts it.

Your “meeting Jesus” was no different than my Mormon converts “meeting Jesus”. Their spiritual experience was just as poignant, powerful, meaningful, and life transforming as your own experience.

That’s what you don’t get.

People have these amazingly transformational spiritual experiences across a broad range of religious belief systems. Obviously, the experience itself says nothing about what is actually real, since these belief systems are so very different.

Your experience (and any ongoing spiritual experiences) mean a great deal to you, but they say nothing about objective reality. It’s emotional, subconscious, confirmatory bias, whether or not you recognize it as such.[/quote]

Forlife, you have to understand - in all those other cases, a compromised person was led to a particular set of false beliefs, driven by their need for stability and safety.

BUT, in Tirib’s case, he was led to TRUE beliefs, totally unrelated to any need for stability and safety.

Therefore, the bible is right. Anyone who believes otherwise is wrong. Don’t you get it?

344

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You guys are a blast. I was already clean and sober over year, had a job and a beautiful (quote so actually) girlfriend who I lost when I met Jesus. 26 years later now. You guys are no less vulnerable than I was. He just let me know. Forlife was once “Elder Forlife” huh? That explains a lot.[/quote]

So you admit that you were, in fact, vulnerable? The more someone NEEDS structure, consolation, hope, guidance, and absolute answers, the more likely they are to adopt a belief system claiming to provide this comfort.

The actual belief system doesn’t much matter, but it’s easier for people to accept it if they’re from a culture that already accepts it.

Your “meeting Jesus” was no different than my Mormon converts “meeting Jesus”. Their spiritual experience was just as poignant, powerful, meaningful, and life transforming as your own experience.

That’s what you don’t get.

People have these amazingly transformational spiritual experiences across a broad range of religious belief systems. Obviously, the experience itself says nothing about what is actually real, since these belief systems are so very different.

Your experience (and any ongoing spiritual experiences) mean a great deal to you, but they say nothing about objective reality. It’s emotional, subconscious, confirmatory bias, whether or not you recognize it as such.[/quote]

Forlife, you have to understand - in all those other cases, a compromised person was led to a particular set of false beliefs, driven by their need for stability and safety.

BUT, in Tirib’s case, he was led to TRUE beliefs, totally unrelated to any need for stability and safety.

Therefore, the bible is right. Anyone who believes otherwise is wrong. Don’t you get it?[/quote]

Either that, or they were misled by the devil…and of course it’s impossible that the devil misled them as well.

It’s always easy to see the confirmatory bias in others, while being blind to it yourself. One silver lining from my own spiritual journey is that I take everything with a grain of salt, including my own beliefs. Tiribulus and I are both subject to confirmatory biases; the difference is that I recognize it and he doesn’t.

345

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:<<< Trib, the sentence was badly constructed. While I understood what you were trying to say (only b/c I’ve been foolish enough to be on this forum awhile), A strong mea culpa would clear things up. >>>[/quote] I appreciate the fact that you do not join in the utterly baseless charge of racism against me here. You and I agree on almost nothing, but even you know me better than that. Enough people have misapprehended my meaning that it appears the way I originally stated it wasn’t as clear as I’d hoped. I have restated it a couple of times already if you look over previous pages. In short one’s race has nothing by itself to do with one’s morality.[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:<<< I’d really like to believe you…

Yeah, your pastor may be black, your best friend might probably be black, but with the way you’ve been going on about homosexuals, I can’t even begin to think what you truly feel about race or women in general. would you have any ties with the Phelps clan by any chance?[/quote]I can’t help what you believe. My history here speaks for itself. Your confusion of race, gender and homosexuality is most unfortunate, but pretty much standard fare these days. All three are entirely separate and from the Christian standpoint are to be addressed individually.

346

[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, if you want to argue a king owns his subjects, go for it. I don’t think most people would consider a king’s subjects to be slaves, but even if they did, I don’t support monarchy over democracy.

I just think the idea of owning another human being is repulsive, and was surprised you support it.[/quote]

I care about the human dignity, all other rights are subject to what we can reason.

I don’t condemn gays, I condemn sinners.

I still have much love for my homosexual brothers. And, yes I will never advocate that women can become priests, and yes I think it’s a good tradition for women to cover their heads. And, you do realize that you’re veiled condemnation is actually quite ironic since you seem to act on a set of relativistic morals. So, not sure why you think my traditions and customs are wrong. Obviously they were right for 2000 years.

You do realize what myopic means in this instance? It’s the narrow sighted piety of the Catholic Faith. Means I do not incorporate Buddhism, relativism, protestantism, &c. into my Catholic faith. So, not sure how that is a bad thing.

Like what, are you suggesting that Pat is someone different in his belief then me? We believe in the same creed, we believe in pretty much the same science, &c. Not sure what you want me to change. That I think that governments are ordained by G-d? I’m sure Pat believes that. You seem to be mistaken the general institute of slavery, with slavery in America. I know it’s difficult, but America doesn’t represent the rest of the world.

347

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Obviously they were right for 2000 years.
[/quote]

Practiced =/= right.

348

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, if you want to argue a king owns his subjects, go for it. I don’t think most people would consider a king’s subjects to be slaves, but even if they did, I don’t support monarchy over democracy.

I just think the idea of owning another human being is repulsive, and was surprised you support it.[/quote]

I care about the human dignity, all other rights are subject to what we can reason.

I don’t condemn gays, I condemn sinners.

I still have much love for my homosexual brothers. And, yes I will never advocate that women can become priests, and yes I think it’s a good tradition for women to cover their heads. And, you do realize that you’re veiled condemnation is actually quite ironic since you seem to act on a set of relativistic morals. So, not sure why you think my traditions and customs are wrong. Obviously they were right for 2000 years.

You do realize what myopic means in this instance? It’s the narrow sighted piety of the Catholic Faith. Means I do not incorporate Buddhism, relativism, protestantism, &c. into my Catholic faith. So, not sure how that is a bad thing.

Like what, are you suggesting that Pat is someone different in his belief then me? We believe in the same creed, we believe in pretty much the same science, &c. Not sure what you want me to change. That I think that governments are ordained by G-d? I’m sure Pat believes that. You seem to be mistaken the general institute of slavery, with slavery in America. I know it’s difficult, but America doesn’t represent the rest of the world.[/quote]

Not to speak for him, but I’m pretty sure Pat would agree with me that owning another human being is wrong, no matter how much you insist that you’re not violating their “human dignity”. Nor do I think Pat worships a petty God that cares whether women have their heads covered in church. Overall, he comes across as more mature and less judgmental than you.

349

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Overall, [Pat] comes across as more mature and less judgmental than you.[/quote]Liberal is what you’re looking for. More liberal. A perfect illustration of the rock solid unity in Rome. Chris is much closer to actual church dogma and doctrine, but he won’t say that for fear of alienating Pat and or displaying discord in the “one true most holy and apostolic” church so I’ll say it for him. Elder forlife is my unwitting ally once more.

350

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

.[/quote]

I’ve reread your post, together with the explanations you gave. I was wrong. My apologies.

However, the hatred you seem to abhor toward gay people makes me really sad and I feel that you’re no better than those Phelps bastards.

Whose words do you really follow? Paul’s or Jesus’? Which one of the two really mean the most to you?

351

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Obviously they were right for 2000 years.
[/quote]

Practiced =/= right.[/quote]

Experience = knowledge.

352

[quote]forlife wrote:
Not to speak for him, but I’m pretty sure Pat would agree with me that owning another human being is wrong, no matter how much you insist that you’re not violating their “human dignity”.[/quote]

Okay. Obviously you aren’t getting what I am saying. Let me point something out before I close this topic for now, you don’t see me saying that we should bring back slavery, because pragmatically people couldn’t handle the institute of slavery, it would be a total mess. People can’t respect people’s dignity when they are free persons, let alone if they weren’t. If you want to understand what I am saying on slaves, read Burke, John Adams, and other conservative men through the ages (they obviously speak on the subject more clearly than I do). However, to attempt to make it clear, I have no problem condemning slavery in which human dignity is ignored. But, the idea that all men should and ought to be free is incorrect, otherwise we’d have to abolish jails and prisons. So, if you believed that slavery was once and always wrong, you would have to be completely against incarceration of criminals. After all they do not call them “Property of the State” for no reason. Now, we do not call them slaves, but last time I checked being the Property of something was making you a slave of something.

Oh, yeah. I forgot, G-d is petty because he cares about the little things (a.k.a. you don’t understand then and deem them to be insignificant). I hear this all the time, like why did G-d kill people for touching the Arc of the Covenant? It’s just a box. Do you think G-d would really care if we just through out the Eucharist in the grass so that the birds could eat it, &c.? It’s a little bit intellectually lazy to not have a grasp of something and instead of asking questions or finding information about it, it is deemed to be insignificant. I mean if someone does something, it usually means there was/is a reason for it.

I am sure he does, I’m 21 and he’s…I unno, but he has a kid. I’m sure he is far more mature than I am.

You’re being a little judgmental calling me judgmental aren’t you?

353

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
discord
[/quote]

At least you stopped using division, as this is a better word for what you mean (that or dissent), but division in the Catholic Church is impossible. You can’t cut the body of Christ into any amount of pieces.

354

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Obviously they were right for 2000 years.
[/quote]

Practiced =/= right.[/quote]

Experience = knowledge.[/quote]

Not always.

355

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

Trib, the sentence was badly constructed. While I understood what you were trying to say (only b/c I’ve been foolish enough to be on this forum awhile), A strong mea culpa would clear things up.

Capped, while I understand where you are coming from, I’ve been around enough “real” religious folks who see…(sorry, I’m a bit too drunk to word this well)… who hear a calling to help the poor/needy. In fact, I think this is the hear of “true” Christianity (for me). That said, I’m not much of one for “conversions” when it comes to helping the poor and destitute; however, I feel a need to point out that helping the poor is a calling to some (many?) Christians, and one that should be applauded. [/quote]

Helping the poor is one thing. Helping the poor with the obvious ulterior motive of convincing them to believe what you believe is another.

[/quote]

There’s a lot of veracity in that. Further, I’ll go on to say that I’ve met Mormons, Catholics, various types of Christians, Muslims, Jews, and atheists who worked quite tirelessly for the poorest of the poor. It’s not a “christian only” thing. And many who I’ve met were NOT doing it just to convert others.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

It’s these type of writings that prevent people from understanding what you are saying. You are a very poor writer, as evidenced by this thread. And you are right, we agree on almost nothing.

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

.[/quote]

I’ve reread your post, together with the explanations you gave. I was wrong. My apologies.

However, the hatred you seem to abhor toward gay people makes me really sad and I feel that you’re no better than those Phelps bastards.

Whose words do you really follow? Paul’s or Jesus’? Which one of the two really mean the most to you?
[/quote]

He does have horrible, horrible beliefs. He has, for example, advocated forced deportations of Muslims from America. But I agree with you in simply feeling sad for him.

356

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:<<< I’ve reread your post, together with the explanations you gave. I was wrong. My apologies. >>>.[/quote]I appreciate that and consider it forgotten.[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:However, the hatred you seem to abhor toward gay people makes me really sad and I feel that you’re no better than those Phelps bastards. >>>[/quote]Look around some more. You’ll change your mind on this too. [quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:<<< Whose words do you really follow? Paul’s or Jesus’? Which one of the two really mean the most to you? >>>[/quote]They’re the same thing, The God breathed oracles of the triune Deity and no I am no great fan of red letter additions of the scriptures. Peter recognized that Paul was writing scripture and said so while Paul was still alive.

357

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Not always.[/quote]

Always.

358

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Not always.[/quote]

Always.[/quote]

Don’t be an asshat. Not always. Because funny enough, your church has had plenty of experience about how the backlash from hiding their clergy diddling little boys would work out and yet they persist on hiding it.

359

Once a nations value and morale system breaks down, the family breaks down, once the family breaks down, the nation breaks down. We are watching it before our very eyes! Our nation’s blessing’s ceased the minute we tolerated wrongful acts upon innocent lives for nothing more than in most cases than selfishness. A life is terminated because some selfish girl is seventeen and still wants to go to spring break in two-months. Great reason to kill someone I guess for some. That is an issue all can see whether you believe or not. Nevertheless, some medical life threatening reasons may warrant abortion in very few cases.

Now, desecrating the meaning of something that is over 2000-years-old and is sacred to us is wrong. Call gay marriage, gay marriage, but do not call it marriage. Deep down in every person they know it is wrong, yet we are human and weak. I know you seek to desecrate everything that is woven in the bible because you seek to live upon your own accord without a conscious. However, that conscious will never cease because it was put there by your creator now matter how much you deny it. That is fine deny it, he gave you that choice to make.

360

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
…who I lost when I met Jesus. [/quote]

Where did you meet Jesus? At the grocery store? Movie theater? Flea market?

Is this the same as when people claim to “find” Jesus?[/quote]

You cannot deny what is in a mans inner being. Something no other organism in this universe has. Just because you have chosen not to have a relationship with God does not mean he does not or I do not. Closed minded is he that has chosen the wide gate.