Gay Marriage Down in Flames!

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
301

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
forlife wrote:
apbt55 wrote:
It is the oh we can’t hurt peoples feelings community that says it isn’t a disease or disorder.

Riiiiight. The American Medical Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, National Association of Social Workers, American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, and every other major medical and mental health organization have reviewed 35 years of research and drawn worthless conclusions because they are all so politically biased you can’t trust them.

Get a fucking clue.

I do have a clue and yes there is a ton of bias in it. It all started with one book in 2003 Departing from deviance: a history of homosexual rights and emancipatory science in America, so maybe you should start to read up. One book caused a feeling of guilt and bias in study. Such that some of these groups changed their position.

And you are an authority on science or medicine. How what is your accreditation? What makes you an expert on sexual deviancy besides the fact that you actually participate in one aspect of it? What research have you done?

So don?t expect me to believe everything spouted from these liberal run organizations that are funded in part by Gay and Lesbian organizations.

It is a deviancie but we don?t to hurt people?s feelings boo hoo hoo

A minority is part of the population that is NORMAL, not deviant, but still part of the population. Like being black, latino, oriental. Minority implies non choice. People are born with urges to smear crap all over their faces, doesn?t make it normal acceptable behavior.

Homosexuality maybe a natural occurring behavior but it is not a normal behavior.
[/quote]

This man has a point!!!

302

[quote]forlife wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Given that all RIGHTS in a civil union are equall to “Marriage”, are we not just talking about a title here?

False, read the thread.
[/quote]

Sorry Bro that is true in California. The domestic partners law allows gays all the same rights as marriage.

And Rockscar makes an excellent point, why is it that you want the - symbol - of a religious institution like marriage without accepting any of the other beliefs like the one that state homosexuality is wrong?

303

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
apbt55 wrote:
forlife wrote:
Makavali wrote:
What is up with the “lifestyle choice” drivel I keep reading. That is utter bullshit. If you’re a straight male, you know just how overpowering the allure of an attractive female is. Could YOU overturn that desire and sleep with men?

It’s not a lifestyle choice. Gay men have the same urges when the see a male that we do when we see a female.

It seems obvious, but they are so convinced that homosexuality is evil/perverse that they refuse to acknowledge it.

Why the hell they think people would choose a “lifestyle” that exposes them to hatred and discrimination is beyond me.

I didn’t choose it, but I have since learned to embrace it as a core part of who I am.

Ok so how is differnt then guys that are attracted to farm animals.

If you are going that route, then that isn’t evil either.

I’ve pointed this out before and was vilified. Maybe you’ll get a better reaction. :wink:

[/quote]

Is there also a gene to be attracted to farm animals?

304

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
[…] There were 2000 in Westwood alone, let alone West Hollywood. The counterprotesters were assaulted.

Traffic was blocked for miles. The only reason things didn’t get worse is because everyone else decided to drive around the protestors rather than drive through them while they blocked traffic. It’s not “representative of the LGBT movement,” it IS the LGBT movment.[/quote]

So even more people (although I still only seem to find quotes like ‘more than a thousand’) on very little arrests - that makes the assertion of public unrest even more spurious.

Yes, it’s a demonstration and people are pissed off at the religious organisation that seems to have had a big hand in organising and financing this. It’s not nice but it happens - and it looks like overall it was heated, but not violent in its overall nature.

Makkun

305

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Makavali wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
And since over 90% of all religions do not allow or support homosexually, that would be a real concern for most.

Elaborate on this gem, please.

Uh… I didn’t write that… I just quoted the guy who wrote that…[/quote]

Yeah, I noticed later on. My bad! :frowning:

306

[quote]clip11 wrote:
stuff[/quote]

You’re a disgusting borderline pedophile. Your opinion doesn’t mean shit.

307

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
forlife wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Given that all RIGHTS in a civil union are equall to “Marriage”, are we not just talking about a title here?

False, read the thread.

Sorry Bro that is true in California. The domestic partners law allows gays all the same rights as marriage.

And Rockscar makes an excellent point, why is it that you want the - symbol - of a religious institution like marriage without accepting any of the other beliefs like the one that state homosexuality is wrong?
[/quote]

Federal rights.

308

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Is it fair to compare with analogy like:

I’m Gay, but want the title of being “Married”, yet I reject the religious institution that created marriage.

I’m Musilm, but I want all Mormons to call me Mormon, and I reject the mormon way of life…

Given that all RIGHTS in a civil union are equall to “Marriage”, are we not just talking about a title here?

Additionally, I think San Francisco sealed their fate with Prop 8 in CA by letting a gay teacher take her class to a gay marriage as a field trip. I personally find that rediculous, offesive and way overstepping the bounds of topics any school should teach.

The fact that our youngsters are taught this proactively is an embarassing shame. Their young minds should not be processing this sort of information yet, gay or straight. No field trip should include weddings.

In my view it is direct marketing to children to be gay, just like cigarette ads are targeted at young kids. It directly challenges and undermineds traditional lifestyles that 90 plus percent of the world live in order to keep our human species alive.[/quote]

Good post.

309

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
forlife wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Given that all RIGHTS in a civil union are equall to “Marriage”, are we not just talking about a title here?

False, read the thread.

Sorry Bro that is true in California. The domestic partners law allows gays all the same rights as marriage.

And Rockscar makes an excellent point, why is it that you want the - symbol - of a religious institution like marriage without accepting any of the other beliefs like the one that state homosexuality is wrong?

Federal rights.[/quote]

So they’re trying to get federal rights by raising hell at the state level? How does that make any sense at all? Their strategy is as crazy as they are.

Like I said, it’s just a silly self-validation scheme in which homosexuals attempt to change a definition that’s stood in Western civ for at least a thousand years.

310

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
[…] This is your obvious blind spot. The consensus of the “medical and mental organizations” is in error, as there are recent papers demonstrating very clearly the elevated level of mental problems and suicidality in the gay community.

Of course, these are blame-shifted off onto prejudice by straights rather than onto homosexuals for their promiscuity, but I linked several in our last discussion. In fact, the thing that caused homosexuality ITSELF to be listed from the DSM-IV is the fact that homosexuals displayed no more psychological illness than straights.

Recent papers demonstrate the error of this logic. Will you now call for homosexuality to be re-added to the DSM-IV? Of course not. Your religiosity is showing.[/quote]

Your assertion is incorrect - homosexuality was slowly moved out of the DSM not because there was no evidence of heightened mental health problems amongst gay people (there clearly is - just like other minority groups subjected to discrimination), but as there was not enough evidence to support that homosexuality itself was a mental health problem.

Massive difference - and that’s why the above argument doesn’t work. Fortunately, qualified professionals understand that difference - and that’s why their professional bodies stand by their point so clearly.

Yes, there are - especially when it comes to the actual attempts at integrating your sexual orientation into your identity over the course of your lifetime. Especially when confronted with known drivers of mental and psychical health problems, like peer pressure, discrimination and violence.

Numerous sources I’ve posted repeatedly (including the CDC which has some very clear words on the negative effect of homophobia - yes, that’s they word they use - on HIV risk behaviour) clarify this.

If I remember correctly, you bemoaned in the last debate we had about this, that there seems to be a lack of psycho-social evidence due to work in this field being suppressed. Has it suddenly appeared?

If I read the news reports correctly, we are speaking about a legal and not forbidden demonstration that went overwhelmingly peaceful (very few arrests) even though it was very heated. What’s fascist about that? Oh yes, of course, it was the gays - all bets are off, all slurs allowed.

Let’s just keep in perspective who is regularly at the receiving end of crimes based on a sexual bias:

Of the 1,512 victims targeted due to a sexual-orientation bias:

  • 58.9 percent were victims of an offender’s anti-male homosexual bias.
  • 24.8 percent were victims of an anti-homosexual bias.
  • 13.0 percent were victims of an anti-female homosexual bias.
  • 1.8 percent were victims of an anti-heterosexual bias.
  • 1.5 percent were victims of an anti-bisexual bias.
    (Based on Table 1.)
    http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2007/victims.htm

Makkun

311

[quote]rainjack wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Some me the data that 85% of gay men have sex with women on a REGULAR basis. Beyond that, show me the data that these 85% enjoy it. Then we can talk. How would a study be designed to even determine that? I don’t believe such data exits.

Where is the data proving that homosexuality is genetic? There are a ton of people saying there is no choice - that homosexuals are “born gay”.

If so, there is a genetic marker that uniquely distinguishes a gay man from a straight man. Show me the proof of the genetic marker. Short of that, all you have is a bunch of really smart people talking and agreeing with the militant gay crowd.

But like ZEB said - this argument has been had to death, and even then, you cannot come up with the proof required to make your argument winnable.

Facts are facts. And you don’t have the one you need. [/quote]

No facts that it’s a choice. None. And there is lots of evidence that their brains function differently and resemble hetereosexual women more than straight men.

No, I’m not going to dig it up for you. It’s been cited in the other gay marriage threads, I don’t care enough about this issue or convincing you to get in a protracted debate.

The scientists who study the issue concede there is an environmental component. But no credible scientists or actual gay people think that its a concious choice and gay people could just flip a switch and choose to stop being attracted to people of the same sex.

The only people who think so are those who have no personal experience with the issue and have not studied it but are fundamentally opposed to homosexuality on principle. Any modicum of logic dictates it’s a ludicrous proposition as well. There’s no contention that straight people choose to be so.

And no reason why anyone would ‘choose’ to be part of a group that’s reviled and whose relationships don’t enjoy any legal recognition in most places.

There’s no ‘facts’ that cigarettes cuase cancer in humans either. Just correlation. Maybe you should go smoke, smoke, smoke to your heart’s delight.

312

Uh, what about all the protesting the gays did in the 1970s to get it removed? Science just did it on its own, huh? lol.

The only physical violence I’ve seen lately has been coming from them. Interesting how tables have turned. And they continue to harass us with their propaganda ads on television, their court challenges, and their legislative attempts. Can we heterosexuals now file a mental health disability claim for the harassment we’ve suffered?

[quote]Of the 1,512 victims targeted due to a sexual-orientation bias:

  • 58.9 percent were victims of an offender’s anti-male homosexual bias.
  • 24.8 percent were victims of an anti-homosexual bias.
  • 13.0 percent were victims of an anti-female homosexual bias.
  • 1.8 percent were victims of an anti-heterosexual bias.
  • 1.5 percent were victims of an anti-bisexual bias.
    (Based on Table 1.) [/quote]

Forgive me if I don’t make much of 1500 hate crimes against gays out of a population of 300 million. I noticed no category for anti-heterosexual bias, which, of course, shows the bias in the data. I know it exists because I saw it on television last night.

Not to mention the whatever the latest mostly-gay affecting STD to come down the pipeline: resistant gonorrhea, MRSA staph (13 times more likely to affect gay men), HIV, … Nope that sure has nothing to do with one’s mental health status. No anxiety disorders caused by that.

313

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
forlife wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Given that all RIGHTS in a civil union are equall to “Marriage”, are we not just talking about a title here?

False, read the thread.

Sorry Bro that is true in California. The domestic partners law allows gays all the same rights as marriage.

And Rockscar makes an excellent point, why is it that you want the - symbol - of a religious institution like marriage without accepting any of the other beliefs like the one that state homosexuality is wrong?

Federal rights.[/quote]

True. But that’s not what it was about in California. They’re right about that. Gays need to take that up at the federal level. Under the DOMA, it doesn’t matter whether a state recognizes a same-sex relationship as a ‘marriage’ or what legal rights it gives.

The federal government may not recognize it as marriage or provide the federal benefits afforded to married people. The Supreme Court has refused to hear any challenges, and it’s constitutional for now. California was all about forcing recognition as equals at a social level.

314

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
[…]Yesterday’s Kristallnacht is a rather recent example.[…][/quote]

I was tempted to further engage with your imho flawed argument. But reading up on the thread I have been increasingly worried and annoyed about your sprinkling of nazi terminology in order to discredit LGBT activists.

I know it’s the Internet, Godwin’s law applies and you’ve been doing everything to live up to it, lowering the level of discussion in each post.

But on a more personal level - and I don’t normally get emotional here, but here we go: your comparison to the co-called ‘Kristallnacht’ (by the way itself a nazi propaganda term) shows an incredible lack of understanding and disrespect for the victims of nazi rule;

Which btw sent scores of gay people into concentration camps - so you’re using the terminology to disrespect its victims. Classy. By an historical coincidence, we’re very close to its 70th anniversary, and I - as a German citizen - take your lacklustre attitude towards this as incredibly insensitive and offensive.

I see no merit in trying to argue with respect and dignity with someone who obviously cannot. And before I sink to that level myself, and break my vow to never use insulting language on T-Nation, I’m leaving this discussion.

Makkun

315

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Have you considered that the anxiety and depression experienced by many in the gay community is the result of the discrimination and negative attitudes that gays face?
I have.

The reason I reject that idea is the myriad of homosexuals I see revered in popular culture and on the television. I see no evidence that gay psychological illness has abated as gays have taken to television and cable primetime. Yesterday’s Kristallnacht is a rather recent example.

I would think a plausible, (and perhaps more likely), explanation would be their level of promiscuity creating anxiety and depression over the Russian roulette they play with HIV.

I love armchair scientists. You skim a topic and presume your uninformed opinion is more valid than the collective consensus of the entire scientific community.

I love how you keep bringing up the “collective consensus of the entire scientific community,” as if it never changes or is never wrong. The implication, of course, is that individuals like myself are too stupid to understand the data. The reality is, we see the homo-narcissistic religious bias dripping from so many of these papers in their conclusion sections.

One position paper from the pediatric association I saw laughably extrapolated data collected from lesbian couples to gay couples regarding child rearing. Lesbians aren’t dropping like flies from HIV, as far as I know, nor do they possess the male libido hyped-up on the narcissistic disorders of the gay man that are the root of much of their promiscuity.

Did you know that gays who try to change their sexual orientation have double the risk of anxiety, depression, drug/alchol abuse, and suicidal thoughts?

Yes, you keep repeating that. It’s a non-sequitur.

[/quote]

Your argument is that because Will and Grace was a popular tv show, gays don’t experience prejudice and discrimination in the real world? I expect more from you. On this thread alone, they have been compared to people who have sex with animals, accused of ‘wanting to make the children gay,’ and in oppposition to everything normal and healthy about the human species.

316

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Have you considered that the anxiety and depression experienced by many in the gay community is the result of the discrimination and negative attitudes that gays face?
I have.

The reason I reject that idea is the myriad of homosexuals I see revered in popular culture and on the television. I see no evidence that gay psychological illness has abated as gays have taken to television and cable primetime. Yesterday’s Kristallnacht is a rather recent example.

I would think a plausible, (and perhaps more likely), explanation would be their level of promiscuity creating anxiety and depression over the Russian roulette they play with HIV.

I love armchair scientists. You skim a topic and presume your uninformed opinion is more valid than the collective consensus of the entire scientific community.

I love how you keep bringing up the “collective consensus of the entire scientific community,” as if it never changes or is never wrong. The implication, of course, is that individuals like myself are too stupid to understand the data.

The reality is, we see the homo-narcissistic religious bias dripping from so many of these papers in their conclusion sections. One position paper from the pediatric association I saw laughably extrapolated data collected from lesbian couples to gay couples regarding child rearing.

Lesbians aren’t dropping like flies from HIV, as far as I know, nor do they possess the male libido hyped-up on the narcissistic disorders of the gay man that are the root of much of their promiscuity.

Did you know that gays who try to change their sexual orientation have double the risk of anxiety, depression, drug/alchol abuse, and suicidal thoughts?

Yes, you keep repeating that. It’s a non-sequitur.

Your argument is that because Will and Grace was a popular tv show, gays don’t experience prejudice and discrimination in the real world? I expect more from you.

On this thread alone, they have been compared to people who have sex with animals, accused of ‘wanting to make the children gay,’ and in oppposition to everything normal and healthy about the human species.[/quote]

Not my argument at all. My argument is that a more likely explanation for the frequency of mental illness in the homosexual population is the Russian roulette they play with their bodies.

A person may feel bad for being discriminated against (when they’re not being celebrated), but they will feel decidedly worse when they’re wondering whether or not they’ve contracted HIV from their recent exploits. The rest of the stuff you mentioned never came from my keyboard.

BTW, a discussion of the delisting of homosexuality from the DSM-II in 1973 can be found here:
http://www.psychiatryonline.com/DSMPDF/DSM-II_Homosexuality_Revision.pdf

317

[quote]Makavali wrote:
clip11 wrote:
stuff

You’re a disgusting borderline pedophile. Your opinion doesn’t mean shit.[/quote]

Fuck u cuz…ill spit in ur face

318

Well when you look at these studies as proof, you have to ask yourself certain questions. Questions like who was the study done by? Who paid for the study? Was the study done objectively?

Because if the “study” was paid for by someome witha stake in the outcome, then it cant be taken too seriously. If youre paying me thousands of dollars to do a study, im going to come out with results that prove the point yure tryimg to prove, after all, I want my money.

319

The homos want to push their stuff on everyone else. Ever notice this: You can publicly praise homosexuality and everyone will pat you on the back and tell you how tolerant you are, etc. But the moment you say something against it, evryone comes down on you hard, Ive heard of ppl losing their jobs for standing against it.

Remember when John Ammechi came out. When he did everyone questioned gave politically correct answers like Charles Barkley who said " What he does is none of my business."

He didnt endorse it but he didnt denounce it, he gave a “safe” answer. When Tim Hardaway was questioned he told how he really felt. He gave a politically incorrect answer.

Tim Hardaway - I Hate Gay People. - YouTube. After he gave it he was called a bigot, homophobic, etc. As if he didnt have a right to how he felt of it. He was forced by the NBA to give some bullshit apology he obviously didnt want to give, like he was just enlightened and learned the error of his ways.

Im tired of hearing this pc crap: “It doesnt matter if youre gay or starit, what matters is the kind of person you are.” Ok everyone now lets get in a big circle and hug each other…

320

I understand that there’s nothing anyone could say or show you that would change your opinion, since it’s based on emotion and not any sort of rational deliberation.