[quote]lucasa wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
I’ve consistently held that sexual orientation is probably a hybrid of
genetic, in utero, and environmental influences, which is why sexual
orientation is not reversible.[/quote]
Fantastic work! You’ve “conclusively” narrowed the factors to biology and/or the environment from sometime before the homosexual’s birth to any time up to their death.
Good to know that the laws of physics that determine when the universe will collapse into a singularity in the future aren’t also determining peoples’ sexual behavior right now. Doc Brown, Dr. Who, and Sherman and Peabody can relax now.
Despite yours and others best assertions, sexual orientation is malleable. Anyone who says otherwise isn’t using 100% of their brain, especially people who speaks in absolutes. Early orientation studies suggested that people’s orientation fluctuates. There is certainly an abundance of anecdotal evidence (LTIG, gay-for-pay, hasbians…) that would suggest that environmental factors/stimuli can determine orientation. Even in the strongest ‘genetic component’ twin studies, sexual experiences is still typically cited as a factor. Further, far more habitual and stronger psychological affinities can be created or erased using proper conditioning and protocols. If a five yr. old who has used their left hand since seven mo. of age can be beaten into using their right hand, certainly their sexual behavior can be altered. If a 20 yr. smoker/heroin/methamphetamine addict can give up their addiction… If a car accident victim can learn to type with their feet… If we can use loud noises to make Little Albert fear rabbits… If people with schizophrenia or OCD can be treated effectively…
I’m not saying we should cut off people’s genitals or show them pornography under electroshock, merely demonstrating that the notion of ‘fixed and unalterable sexual orientation’ (sexual destiny?) is clearly flawed. IMO, its about as fixed as smoking or handedness. Much like the CDC’s failed attempt to curtail homosexuality AND HIV, they myriad of anti-smoking institutions seem to have found their point of diminishing returns too. I certainly wouldn’t say that those people CAN’T be cured of smoking, rather efforts to convert them to non-smokers would infringe on theirs and others personal liberties and maybe even their rights.
[quote]You’re incorrect that “similar methods show strong environmental (and
weak genetic) component to homosexuality.” In fact, twin studies have
been conducted specifically on sexual orientation, and have identified
a strong genetic component.[/quote]
I congratulate you on your ability to cherry-pick and misrepresent data;
1.) Your studies suffer some pretty significant biases in that they are small, look strictly at MSM-oriented sexuality (i.e. no women and/or only concordance of HOMOsexuality with genetics), outdated, presumably represent a more homophobic environment than we see today, and are decidedly pro-American (not to mention you cherry-picked only the ones that support your conclusion). Even in the era you cite, there are/were a considerable number of twin studies that found a negligible genetic component. Larger, more modern studies suggest a smaller genetic component (30% or less) and a genetic component secondary to individual environmental factors.
2.) Repeated molecular genetic studies have continued to come up empty for any/all ‘gay genes’. Genetics may predispose you to homosexuality, but there is little evidence that homosexuality is heritable.
3.) Surveying the literature at large, birth order is THE SINGLE LARGEST epidemiological factor in determining a predisposition to sexual orientation. Unless you’ve got a twin study linking genetics to birth order, the evidence in support of a predominantly genetically driven sexual orientation is pretty weak.
4.) All of the above three are distinctly different from known genetically associated mental disorders and race. Twin studies of OCD show numbers like a 68-85% genetic component and birth order studies of mental health generally give mixed results (e.g. more depression but generally higher self esteem for 1st-born). People obviously don’t even bother to do twin studies or birth rank studies on race.
I’m baffled by your adherence to/belief in this dogma. Genetic and physically characterized mental defects can be treated medicinally (OCD, schizophrenia) and is done acceptably while predominantly social behavior (excessive homosexuality, excessive religious zeal) not so much. Why do you claim homosexuality is absolutely, positively NOT a reversible psychological defect and then associate it with treatable psychological defects when the data strongly suggests that it is different?
[/quote]
I do so because, despite your amateur armchair analysis, the health organizations have actually designed, conducted, and drawn conclusions from 35 years of research on homosexuality. And those organizations unanimously and unequivocally say YOU ARE WRONG.
Either every single one of these organizations is dishonest, politically corrupt, and not truly committed to public health…or your “information” about gays is wrong. I’m placing my bet on the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Association, and every other major health organization.
Several leading medical and mental health organizations developed and
endorsed “Just the Facts About Sexual Orientation & Youth: A Primer
for Principals, Educators and School Personnel” in 1999. According to
that document:
[quote]The most important fact about ‘reparative therapy,’ also
sometimes known as ‘conversion’ therapy, is that it is based on an
understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major
health and mental health professions. The American Academy of
Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American
Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the
National Association of School Psychologists, and the National
Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000
health and mental health professionals, [b]have all taken the position
that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no
need for a ‘cure.’…
No data demonstrate that reparative or conversion therapies are
effective, and in fact they may be harmful[/b][/quote]
The American Academy of Pediatrics in its policy statement on
Homosexuality and Adolescence states:
[quote]Therapy directed specifically at changing sexual orientation is
contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while
having little or no potential for achieving changes in
orientation.[/quote]
According to the American Medical Association:
[quote]Most of the emotional disturbance experienced by gay men and
lesbians around their sexual identity is not based on physiological
causes but rather is due more to a sense of alienation in an
un-accepting environment. For this reason, aversion therapy is no
longer recommended for gay men and lesbians.[/quote]
American Psychological Association:
[quote]Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?
No, human beings cannot choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual
orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any
prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our
feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a
conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.
Can Therapy Change Sexual Orientation?
No. Even though most homosexuals live successful, happy lives, some
homosexual or bisexual people may seek to change their sexual
orientation through therapy, sometimes pressured by the influence of
family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is
that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment
and is not changeable. [/quote]
National Association of Social Workers:
[quote]Social stigmatization of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people is
widespread and is a primary motivating factor in leading some people
to seek sexual orientation changes. Sexual orientation conversion
therapies assume that homosexual orientation is both pathological and
freely chosen.
The increase in media campaigns, often coupled with coercive messages
from family and community members, has created an environment in which
[b]lesbians and gay men often are pressured to seek reparative or
conversion therapies, which cannot and will not change sexual
orientation.
No data demonstrate that reparative or conversion therapies are
effective, and in fact they may be harmful.[/b] [/quote]
From the Wikipedia on reparative therapy:
[quote]In 2001, Dr. Ariel Shidlo and Dr. Michael Schroeder found that
88% of participants in reparative therapy failed to achieve a
sustained change in their sexual behavior and 3% reported changing
their orientation to heterosexual. The remainder reported either
losing all sexual drive or struggling to remain celibate. Schroeder
said many of the participants who failed felt a sense of shame. Many
had gone through reparative therapy programs over the course of many
years. Of the 8 respondents (out of a sample of 202) who reported a
change in sexual orientation, 7 were employed in paid or unpaid roles
as ‘ex-gay’ counsellors or group leaders, something which has led many
to question whether even this small ‘success’ rate is in fact
reliable.
Schroeder and Shidlo found that the large majority of respondents
reported being left in a poor mental and emotional state after the
therapy, and that rates of depression, anxiety, alcohol and drug abuse
and suicidal feelings were roughly doubled in those who underwent
reparative therapy.[/quote]
In 1998-MAR, the Governing Council of the American Counseling
Association (ACA) approved a motion that the association:
[quote]…opposes portrayals of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth and
adults as mentally ill due to their sexual orientation; and supports
the dissemination of accurate information about sexual orientation,
mental health, and appropriate interventions in order to counteract
bias that is based in ignorance or unfounded beliefs about same-gender
orientation.[/quote]
The Surgeon General’s Call to Action to Promote Sexual Health and
Responsible Sexual Behavior (2001) asserts that homosexuality is
not “a reversible lifestyle choice.”
