Game of Thrones Season 3

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205

[quote]timbofirstblood wrote:
I think the show does a poor job of conveying just how obsessed with honor Ned is, and the consequences. He could have achieved justice for Jon Arryn by taking Stannis (I think?) up on his offer of men to help take the throne from Joffrey.[/quote]
He tried to reach Stannis, but he was hiding on Dragonstone. Ned realized that Robert had no legitimate children and (in the show) changed the will to read “my true heir” instead of “my son Joffrey”. He wanted Stannis to be king.

Renly is the one who offered to take the throne, but Ned wanted to do things right, since Stannis is older. Stannis, Renly, Stannis’ daughter and after that Robert’s bastards would have been the correct line of succession, I think.

206

[quote]kakno wrote:

Renly is the one who offered to take the throne, but Ned wanted to do things right, since Stannis is older. Stannis, Renly, Stannis’ daughter and after that Robert’s bastards would have been the correct line of succession, I think.[/quote]

That’s right, makes sense. I still don’t understand Ned’s tipping his hand to Cersei the way he did though.

207

[quote]timbofirstblood wrote:

[quote]kakno wrote:

Renly is the one who offered to take the throne, but Ned wanted to do things right, since Stannis is older. Stannis, Renly, Stannis’ daughter and after that Robert’s bastards would have been the correct line of succession, I think.[/quote]

That’s right, makes sense. I still don’t understand Ned’s tipping his hand to Cersei the way he did though.[/quote]

So that Robert wouldn’t kill the children.

208

[quote]timbofirstblood wrote:

[quote]kakno wrote:

Renly is the one who offered to take the throne, but Ned wanted to do things right, since Stannis is older. Stannis, Renly, Stannis’ daughter and after that Robert’s bastards would have been the correct line of succession, I think.[/quote]

That’s right, makes sense. I still don’t understand Ned’s tipping his hand to Cersei the way he did though.[/quote]

To save her children.

209

Robert’s Bastards might have had some legitimacy- if he cared to legitimize them.
Since he didn’t, they were just poor sods with maybe some symbolic meaning.
So this branch = gone.

Stannis’ line would have been next, and so far, his sickly daughter would’ve been QUeen after him.
Historically, that could have been problematic, some arrangements would have been likely to occur, ie a new, fertile wife for Stannis (while putting both mother and child into a nunnery) or adoption of a promising young noble.

Next would have been Renly. Let’s ignore his transparent homosexuality for a moment, as it did little harm to Richard Lionheart.
He’s charismatic, the people and the rulers liked him and a clever political marriage already cemented a potential fundament for a new dynasty.

Like so often, Ned acted rather brash and incompetent by refusing to budge an inch towards Renly’s aspirations.
Some sort of deal could and should’ve been struck. Stark should have at least consulted with other high lords.

Frankly, the realm was better off without Eddard, as some kind of war would have been inevitable with such an undiplomatic, brutish hand-regent.

210

This is some real in-depth analysis. I’m quite enjoying it. I hated Eddard dying tho- that’s twice now they’ve killed 006!!!

211

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:

Next would have been Renly. Let’s ignore his transparent homosexuality for a moment, as it did little harm to Richard Lionheart.
He’s charismatic, the people and the rulers liked him and a clever political marriage already cemented a potential fundament for a new dynasty.
[/quote]

I would give a lot to actually see the scene where his mother berated him in front of his whole army to lay off the boys for a while and get to sire an heir to the throne.

212

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]IFlashBack wrote:
I never actually thought about it from the counterpart perspective, interesting thought.

After a second read, I feel the Starks were never the good people. They simply followed the Westerosi Northern “protocol” to the letter, called it honor and felt good about it.

You dessert the nights watch? Beheaded, no questions asked.
Fatass best friend tells you to leave your home and take up a job you hate? Damn, gotta go.
Find about Jaime and Cersei? Tell her exactly what your plan is.

The Starks are no different, they simply have “honor” on their side, so its all good. Deviate from this tradition, like Jaime did, and get called a Kingslayer.

Take even Robert’s Rebellion for example. Why did Robert of all people become King? He had the most Targaryen Blood in him. Why overthrow a King only to replace him with the closest match?

My underlying point is that the Lannisters fail to follow a code that Skarks abide by religiously. After some examination, I find that does not make one or the other any better.

[/quote]

This one I disagree on.

As Omar said, “A man got to have a code.” The Starks have that, and it does not involve incest, or straight up murder, or conspiring against and killing one’s own family members. The Starks are indeed the good guys, but they’re in such a fucked up world that a group so pure cannot actually live.

The Stark “code” is really one of honesty to a fault, justice to the extreme, and never shirking one’s duties. Honestly, the Starks in America in 2013 are probably that one douchebag “supercop” that pulls you over, follows the letter of the law exactly, and gives you six tickets on your birthday for every single thing you did wrong.

The Lannisters are the opposite of that - the absence of ALL morals. There’s nothing off limits to them - not treason, not regicide, not patricide, not incest not murdering children - pretty much the embodiment of Hobbes philosophy of “bellum omnium contra omnes” to a T.

So maybe you don’t really like the Starks all that much, but make no mistake that they are the fair, just, and “light” side of this equation. The Lannisters, who are dark but for flashes of light here and there, are absolutely the insidious, cunning, “dark” side.[/quote]

Agreed, that they are definitely not bad people. But I have a hard time about their code; what is the point of having it? What is the end game of having all these rules and making all these sacrifices? Justice?

Justice would have been giving Renly power.

Justice would have been asking why that man desserted the watch before beheading him.

EDIT: How did Jon Snow fit into the code?

And let’s not forget that Ned admitted being a traitor to keep Sansa safe. There was no code in that. Keeping in line with the code he was following up until that point, he should have refused claiming anything except the truth, no matter the cost.

Not a single decision he made ended up being for the good of the realm.

Again, I agree with everything you say, they are the good guys in this messed up world. But when looking at it, what good did they actually do?

213

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:

Next would have been Renly. Let’s ignore his transparent homosexuality for a moment, as it did little harm to Richard Lionheart.
He’s charismatic, the people and the rulers liked him and a clever political marriage already cemented a potential fundament for a new dynasty.
[/quote]

I would give a lot to actually see the scene where his mother berated him in front of his whole army to lay off the boys for a while and get to sire an heir to the throne.

[/quote]

I thought Renly’s folks died when they were young, or did I totally miss what you were saying?

214

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:

Next would have been Renly. Let’s ignore his transparent homosexuality for a moment, as it did little harm to Richard Lionheart.
He’s charismatic, the people and the rulers liked him and a clever political marriage already cemented a potential fundament for a new dynasty.
[/quote]

I would give a lot to actually see the scene where his mother berated him in front of his whole army to lay off the boys for a while and get to sire an heir to the throne.

[/quote]

I thought Renly’s folks died when they were young, or did I totally miss what you were saying?[/quote]

Richard Lionheart

215

[quote]IFlashBack wrote:
EDIT: How did Jon Snow fit into the code?[/quote]

Implying Jon Snow is actually his son

216

Doesn’t matter if Jon was the gay lovechild of Lann the clever and Bran the builder.
It may be the truth, but you cannot come late to the successor party with some outrageously lofty claims like that.

The royal system is kinda set up to minimize surprises.
Was he officially legitimized by anyone?
No.
He’s just a Snow, then, whatever his eyecolour, birthmarks or dongsize.

People shouldn’t expect Martin to pull off some kind of Disneyesque ending.
Jon’s fans can merely hope…

[!ginormous spoiler!]
…that he’s alive and not R’hllor’ed or stuck in his wolf
[/spoiler]

217

[quote]csulli wrote:
Am I the only one who feels like George Martin is less of a dark, gritty fantasy writer with realistic characters in no-bullshit dire situations and more of just a massive troll who deliberately writes awesome characters just so he can kill them horribly in front of his readers?[/quote]

No i agree with that completely. The books only further re-enforce this viewpoint.

218

[quote]zenontheterrible wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
Am I the only one who feels like George Martin is less of a dark, gritty fantasy writer with realistic characters in no-bullshit dire situations and more of just a massive troll who deliberately writes awesome characters just so he can kill them horribly in front of his readers?[/quote]

No i agree with that completely. The books only further re-enforce this viewpoint. [/quote]
Yeah. Don’t get me wrong, I love his work. It just seems like he’s gone well beyond the realm of dark realism to the point where one has to think he must just get off at creating something people will love and then destroying it in front of them on a whim. I think he enjoys wielding the power.

219

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Doesn’t matter if Jon was the gay lovechild of Lann the clever and Bran the builder.
It may be the truth, but you cannot come late to the successor party with some outrageously lofty claims like that.

The royal system is kinda set up to minimize surprises.
Was he officially legitimized by anyone?
No.
He’s just a Snow, then, whatever his eyecolour, birthmarks or dongsize.

People shouldn’t expect Martin to pull off some kind of Disneyesque ending.
Jon’s fans can merely hope…

[!ginormous spoiler!]
…that he’s alive and not R’hllor’ed or stuck in his wolf
[/spoiler]
[/quote]

Implying he’s a bastard

220

Even though I’ve read the books. It was still very, very chilling to know you we’re looking at people about to die. The added scene of the stomach stabbing was brutal, the confrontational open scene of Cat getting her throat (btw, spoiler apparently. Sorry peeps) and the deathly quiet cut to credits was staggeringly good.

I love this damn tv show. I wish they had twice the budget to make it two hour episodes and fit ALL of the books in

Edited because I ruined two people’s day

221

[quote]02Thief wrote:
A huge spoiler[/quote]
Thief this thread is about the TV series NOT the novels. Do not put your fucking enormous spoilers in this thread. You’re lucky I already knew about that one, but I would’ve royally pissed if I hadn’t, and I guarantee you some people reading this have no idea. Wtf man?

222

[quote]02Thief wrote:
/spoiler[/quote]

WTF MAN?!?!

223

Martin is one of the few writers who ain’t afraid to kill off as many characters as they like. I commend him for that.

The Red Wedding scene was good and true to Martin’s style. You’re drawn into his books because he’s so unpredictable and writes true to life. Life is not a fairy tale and good does not always prevail!

It’s not about good vs evil or right or wrong. It’s all about being cunning and one move ahead of your opponent. This is exactly how Ned, Rob and Cat should have played from the start.

224

I know I should have given up on the Starks being the “good guys” a long time ago, but GRRM keeps giving us hope.

After Ned is executed, we’re left going “Damn! Who on earth is going to avenge his death, and kick Joffrey’s ass?” Then Robb gets a level-up from teenage boy to King in the North, and marches South to take care of that shit.

Now that Robb and Cat are dead and Winterfell has been burned, we’re all left feeling like the protagonist family is pretty much fucked, with no hope of revenge, or even rebuilding.

The good news is that I’ve noticed a trend. Whenever a Stark dies, the rest of the family gets a boost. I cited the Robb example above, and now, here are a few more:

Bran has gone from having wet dreams about being a wolf to controlling conscious human beings - simple headed ones, but he’s done something no one else has done before. As far as I can tell, he’s the rightful ruler of the North right now, and once he gains full control of his ability, he’ll be a force to be Rickoned with.

Sansa went from being completely useless to being married into the Lannister family. She may not have much sway with Tyrion, but as the most reasonable of that lot, and the one with the intentions of the realm most at heart, his political agenda is nearest to hers. He himself carries little influence with his family, but Sansa’s subtle influence on Tyrion will affect his subtle influence with is family, which could snowball into big actions.

Aria has now seen some shit. She went from being a tomboy to being a tombadass. Now she’s rollin’ with the Hound, talking shit about putting needles in his eyes, has an assassin under her employ, and has been surviving since her father’s death.

Rickon is still a useless tit, but he’s learned how to speak, which I guess is a step, and he’s going to foster with that family that’s going to make him into the next Robb.

All this to say don’t write the Starks off yet - be patient. As sports fans would say, they’re rebuilding the franchise.

[I’ve only read the first two books, so if I’ve disclosed or hinted at something, I ain’t spoiled shit, I’m just a fucking genius]