Fun With Religion

Off Topic
122

CD -

"People who are happy have chosen to be that way, I think we can all agree that happiness is a nice and good thing.

You’re oversimplifying. What if you’re happy because Bob just broke his ankle? Bob doesn’t think it’s a good thing. "

You are over analyzing, I am not talking about situational happiness, I am talking about True Happiness or joy for who and what you are.

Am I happy when bob breaks his leg? Sure, Bob gets to experience that broken leg. Bob grows spiritually and becomes stronger, wiser. That is a good thing. Do I ever intentionally want pain and suffering to befall someone? Not at all, And on the outside I do feel some pain for bob the body, within I feel joy and happiness almost unwaivering.

Also I never claimed this was groundbreaking stuff, Many are less read than you. Obviously I am, the thing is I came to realize much of what I have come to understand on my own. It is an evolving understanding that grows with me, as does everyone elses. If it is comic book like to you I apologize, perhaps I am not communicating things clearly.

Be well,

123

Just to Clarify the earliest still existing greek copy of the new testament is around 1870 years old and hasnt changed and its translation is still the same today.

CDarklock What do you think about the story of gilgamesh?

124

CD,
You seem to be very well read in religious matters. However, your overconfidence is your weakness, just as it was with the Jews of Jesus’s time. Do not think that you already no the truth, or the truth may past you by.

125

[quote]wishin wrote:
This is so true. A religion that has as it’s roots, Judaism (supposedly) celebrates NONE of the Biblical Holy Days. Yet, pagan holidays abound within the religion.[/quote]

Exactly. I’m not saying it’s a bad religion, but it’s certainly not rooted in Judaism. Even worse, it’s rooted most obviously in the Egyptian gods, specifically Osiris – the very gods the Jews were first commanded to forsake!

Yes, although observant Orthodox Jews do not (in case some reader is wondering why you asked). I think this particular area of the law has been improperly extended by the rabbinate, and that the halachic interpretation is far too broad.

The party line on this is that we are not supposed to seethe a kid (baby goat) in its mother’s milk, which is a pagan practice. Since Jews apparently could not tell one kind of meat from another, or one kind of milk from another, or whether a given cooking method was “seething”, or whether two animals of the same species were related, it was concluded that to avoid this possibility altogether we should never cook or eat meat and dairy products together.

Now, I don’t know about you, but I don’t eat goat and I don’t cook with goat’s milk. It’s pretty much impossible for me to combine goat meat with goat milk. Even if some nefarious person were to sneak goat meat into my kitchen, I would know; it smells different, and (being extremely paranoid about spoilage) I always smell meat before I cook it. The same goes for sneaking goat’s milk into my kitchen. So I don’t need all this protection to prevent accidentally breaking God’s law. It’s not going to happen, period.

I still don’t cook meat and dairy together, because I don’t want to get into the habit of distinctly non-kosher cooking. I will on occasion have Jewish guests for dinner, and while I do not think it’s important to follow the halachic prohibitions, they might. For this reason, I keep a few separate milchig and fleischig utensils, so when these people come over I can prepare their meals in a legitimately kosher fashion. After all, just because I don’t agree with them is no reason they should starve.

126

[quote]Vegita wrote:
If it is comic book like to you I apologize, perhaps I am not communicating things clearly.[/quote]

I think this may be the problem. Your first few posts struck me as having a tone of superiority and condescension, but from the tone of this post, I’m starting to think I just read that in myself.

You do have a certain point, in that you always have control over your attitude toward what happens to you. What I’m not clear on is how this relates to an overall worldview; perhaps you could clarify it.

127

[quote]Stevemax wrote:
Just to Clarify the earliest still existing greek copy of the new testament is around 1870 years old and hasnt changed and its translation is still the same today.[/quote]

That was just the gospel of John, and it is most certainly not identical to modern Greek versions.

And let’s further clarify. I’m not saying that there exist a few synagogues that have copies of the Torah identical to the oldest surviving copy, I’m saying that EVERY synagogue has a copy of the Torah identical to the oldest surviving one. Not identical in translation, either – IDENTICAL. In every letter and every word and every page.

128

[quote]bamit wrote:
You seem to be very well read in religious matters.[/quote]

That tends to happen when you’re the only practicing Jew left in your family, and everyone else has gone a-whoring after other gods… um, I mean, converted to christianity.

I don’t entirely agree that overconfidence was their problem; I think Jesus claimed overconfidence was their problem, when the real problem was black and white thinking. Since Jesus was guilty of the same variety of black and white thinking, he couldn’t very well identify it as their failing without condemning himself in the same breath.

I would alter that sentence slightly: “do not ignore what you see because it contradicts what you believe”.

When you’re reading through the scripture and find something that contradicts what you believe, there are only two possibilities: either your beliefs are wrong, or the scripture is wrong. Pick one.

If you’re unwilling to do either, making excuses for why you don’t have to is just stupid. You know better than that.

129

CDarklock,

I was pricing those Torah Scrolls you speak of. The type that are in the Synagogues that I have visited are VERY expensive, to the tune of Thirty thousand dollars.

I believe that the message of Jesus was (in part) to eliminate the Rabbinical fences that had been erected over the years. I don’t recall that he ever violated any of the 613 that may apply to him. He did blast the religous authorities of the day. But I don’t recall him saying anything against the Tanak. Paul had plenty to say, Also I notice that his mom was a Jewess, but his dad was a Greek. She must not have been a practising Jew when she got married, she was in blatant disobedience. There are other things that I have noticed. I have reached the point where I read the Bible for what it says and disregard any preconcieved notions or prior teachings. It is eye opening.

130

CD,

I thank-you for your patience with me in regards to my ignorance of the Law. I am disappointed that you quit quoting Deut were you did. It seems to me that what follows is “truly” how the other nations worship their “gods.” Deut 12:31 “You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshipping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.” Also in Deut 16 21 “Do not set up any wooden Asherah poles beside the alter you build to the Lord your God, and do not erect a sacred stone, for these the Lord your God hates.” I didn’t find a mention of festival or days there. Yes the Law has the Feast of weeks, and the Feast of Tabernacles, these are rather difficult to celebrate for non-agricultural people don’t you think? I guess the thanks and expressions of joy we give at each meal does not equal either. Again I find that somethings Jesus taught were, why relegate it to one day or certain time of the year? Why not seek it everyday?

As for the passover? We may not celebrate it as you do, but we do celebrate it. Again portions of this too have been blurred and forgotten over the years but some are reclaiming them. I do find it strange that according to us Christians that Jesus is the sacrificial Lamb symbolized in the old testament and if his life was written around the law and prophets it is incredibly lucky that he got arrested, was taken to pilate, given back to the jews, and crucified on the passover, and if you believe the website I mention below His blood then offered on the alter.

Never heard of Saturnalia, but I have heard of Jesus’ birth. While I have allowed Christmas trees in my house, Santa has never visited…we have even had birthday cakes for Jesus and sang happy birthday. We don’t celebrate Old hallowed’ eve, nor easter for the easter bunny. Becareful you don’t group all Christians together just as you shouldn’t group all jews together.

I agree that to say you are in the spirit is dangerous, and why I like the saying out of bulletproof monk that is supposedly a tibetan proverb, “to know others is to be wise, to know yourself is to be enlightened.” Learn from others experiences as well as your own, but be the judge of yourself… and don’t as Chris Shugart says rationalize yourself…which is basically lying to yourself.

I have not yet gotten deeply into Paul, but will eventually, he is way too cerebral yet.

As for Genesis being based on Babylonian mythology, could be, definitely some striking similarities, but of interest Noah’s Ark has been found, There are Chariots etc, on the bottom of the Red Sea (not the reed sea) And the Ark of the Covenant has been allegedly found. Old testament apocrypha books Maccabees and another supposedly by Jeremiah say the the Ark was taken and hidden in a cave. Best guess is the original torah is still on the Ark. www.wyattmuseum.com you can decide if it is legit.

As for Jesus addressing the Confidence of the Pharisees he says they have the keys to knowledge, but don’t enter in and don’t let others in either.

Isaiah mentions in Ch 19 at the end “blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork and Israel my inheritance.”

Peace,
T-Ren

131

Sorry that bit about Isaiah is kind of a cliff hanger, I meant to add that references to those similarities with babylonian myth etc don’t startle me because of Isaiah, I don’t know what it means though I have some ideas. If you believe that Noah’s ark has been found, and the other things at that site then it moves Genesis out of the myth category.

Peace,
T-Ren

132

T-Ren,
This is the first that I have heard of the Ark of the Covenant being found. It seems to me that such a discovery would be world wide news, particularly in Jewish and Christian circles. I haven’t checked out the site you mention. I will shortly. Paul can be hard to understand. Some accuse the Christian religion of being more about Paul’s teachings than the teachings of Jesus.
That the Christian religion was hijacked by paganistic beliefs and customs, instead of the Biblical beliefs of the Jews. I would tend to agree, based on what I now know.

133

Wishin,

I don’t know that the Ark of the Covenant has actually been excavated. As you said it would be world news, but the implications are incredible to say the least, both for Christians and the Jewish people. I think that may be why it has not actually been excavated out.

I agree, Paul’s letters compose much of the New testament and many Christians have made them the bulk of what they know. Though written on Christ they are still one step removed from Christ himself.

It was actually a similar line of thinking that shook me out of complacency. I realized I was reading more Christian books than I was the bible.

Peace,
T-Ren

134

[quote]larryb wrote:
RockClimberjoe wrote:
The interesting thing about atheism is that, logically, you cannot defend this belief. Let me explain:

Of course, you can “defend” it logically, you just can’t prove it logically. That is what “belief” means. This is not in any way “interesting”.
[/quote]

Yea you can prove something logically. Is god benevolent?
omnipotent?
omniscient?

Im thinking most would say yes to this.

Alright so say some woman is about to be brutally raped and murdered, and you had a gun and could easily stop the situation. if you just sit by and watch are you an asshole? yea i think most would agree your an asshole becuase you could have stopped the rape and murder of this woman but you didnt. Now this situation is played out many times across the globe and some supposedly omnipotent, benevolent god does nothing. So assuming god exists, wouldnt this make him an asshole? :slight_smile:

135

herb,

i think it would help if you brought common sense, wisdom, and some kind of educated opinion to the forum.

To say God is an asshole is a very popular opinion among the uneducated…maybe you should start half way down on this T-nation forum http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;?id=494010
and then read the whole of this one.

136

[quote]Stevemax wrote:
herb,

i think it would help if you brought common sense, wisdom, and some kind of educated opinion to the forum.

To say God is an asshole is a very popular opinion among the uneducated…maybe you should start half way down on this T-nation forum http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;?id=494010
and then read the whole of this one.

[/quote]

Link doesnt work scooter. Im not saying god is an asshole. I dont believe in god. I’m just saying that if there was some entity with these qualities that he either doesnt exist (beneveolent and doesnt do anything= not benevolent) or its a jerk

137

[quote]rainjack wrote:
stallone wrote:
As a Steelers fan, I must point out that the Immaculate Reception occurred not in a Super Bowl but in the 1972 AFC Divisional Playoff against the Raiders. Rainjack might have been thinking of Lynn Swann’s spectacular grab against the Cowboys in Super Bowl X (1976).

My bad - both catches were nausiating.[/quote]

Michael Westbrook’s catch in the CU at Michigan game September 24, 1994 was the best ever! I’ll never forget watching that, oh, and Friday was the 10 year anniversary of “The Catch” what an awesome play.

On a side note, 9 of the players on those two teams that day would go on to be FIRST ROUND NFL draft picks, which is astounding.

138

CD - Ok, I’m not sure of what you mean by “world view” I guess the way I view the world is that It is one Very Isolated Reality in which Incarnations of god come to experience things. The connection of the soul to the body (maybe by Chakras?) is where most of the interaction takes place. They are supposedly a two way communication device you know when you get that pit in your stomach feeling? Is it actually your stomach reacting or one of your lower chakras that are reacting negatively, possibly directing you away from whatever situation that was?

Back on topic, I view all experience, good or bad in human terms to be good spiritually. I believe that No matter what happens All is going the way it should go. I don’t really think there is any wrong thing that can happen. I do not believe in eternal hell or damnnation. I believe that stuff is a state of being. Getting captured by a terrorist and being tortured for weeks on end would in fact feel like hell. Pure fear and terror and pain every waking and nonwaking second. Still I believe that our souls want to feel this pain, this fear, this suffering.

I happen to think that this time, I am supposed to be a good person, my identity, my feelings, my heart, all direct me to do good for others and make other people feel good. I am fine with this, I consider this to be one of the good trips around. I am somewhat uncertain of what may come around the year 2012. I honestly think there is going to be something extraordinary. Maybe it will be great, maybe it will suck. Does it really matter? 9/11 was a single terrible event. Is our country stronger now than it was then? I think it is and we are still trying to get stronger. Did it bring another level of human compassion to some people who before were not connected to the sufferings of others? I think it did.

Bad things are necessary for good things to exist. That is the basis of my world view I guess.

Hope this was clearer, though for some reason I don’t think I have said everything correctly.

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins

139

[quote]wishin wrote:
I was pricing those Torah Scrolls you speak of.[/quote]

The average Jew doesn’t need a Sefer Torah, because any old copy of the Torah he buys in a bookstore will have to match the Sefer Torah at his temple anyway. If it doesn’t, he will discover the discrepancy and replace it within a year.

I am of the opinion that where Leviticus 19:25 says “you shall not aggrieve your fellow man”, it means that wherever possible, you try to be polite and respectful of others.

So when Jesus is distinctly and repeatedly disrespectful of the Jewish authorities, I think he’s violated the hell out of this one. There are an awful lot of places where Jesus could (and should) have been a lot more polite, but chose instead to pitch a fit.

Even if you don’t believe this is a sin, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect better from a would-be savior.

140

[quote]T-Ren wrote:
I am disappointed that you quit quoting Deut were you did.[/quote]

I thought it might be offensive to continue with the next verse, since it could have been construed as me saying that christianity is detestable to God.

It interests me that you stop just before “Whatever thing I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add to it, nor diminish from it.” I might even say I was disappointed. :wink:

It is important to note that, as in many other areas of scripture, God identifies an extremity of behavior to underscore His statement about a general behavior; a common mistake is to conclude that the identified extremity is the only important aspect of the behavior. But while God singles out sacrificing one’s children to other gods, He still forbids all manner of worship offered to other gods.

So when you observe rituals of other gods, whatever they may be, this cannot be offered to God – it is an improper form of worship for Him – and it cannot be offered to other gods, because we are forbidden to worship them. One may, however, celebrate secular holidays without undue concern… it is a matter of some debate whether christmas is a secular holiday.

Because the cycle is important. You won’t find that in the scriptures, because ancient man knew without any prompting that cycles were powerful and important.

But you can group all Jews together, because we all use the same scriptures and have the same foundation to our beliefs. The only reason you can’t do the same with christians is their basic inability to agree on anything… except, of course, that whoever doesn’t agree with them is going to hell. It’s unclear where that concept came from, but it’s certainly not Jewish.

141

[quote]herb311 wrote:
Alright so say some woman is about to be brutally raped and murdered, and you had a gun and could easily stop the situation.[/quote]

Millions of unicellular organisms are on your body raping and murdering each other right now. Could you easily stop this situation? Should you? Do you honestly give a rat’s ass about it?

Think about that for a while.

(And before anyone gets started: the “free will” argument is bullshit.)