Fun With Religion

Off Topic
102

[quote]Vegita wrote:
You make your World.[/quote]

That’s a dangerous generality.

On the one hand, it’s empowering. Want something? Go get it; you make your world.

On the other, it’s depressing. Bad day? That’s your own fault; you make your world.

Both of these can be flipped around, too. Overly empowered people can become sociopathic in the quest to make their world without regard to the rights of others. There’s also a certain serenity to be found in the refusal to blame others for your own problems.

But what this phrase misses is that you don’t have your own personal world. You share your world with other people, and when you make your world, you’re also making theirs. The converse applies, as well – they have a certain ability to make your world.

Perhaps it would be better said that we make our world… which explains a lot. (We all know what happens when you design things by committee.)

And then we have the question of how far the world extends. It’s obvious that we all have an impact on the gross physical world around us, or on the emotional well-being of other people, but what about supernatual matters?

Put simply, do our collective actions and beliefs change the nature of God? And is this change an actual change in God’s nature, or merely a change in how we interpret that nature?

That’s a pretty deep question, but this post is already too damn long, so I’ll shut up and let someone else weigh in on things.

103

Ok, now while keeping the first question in the back of your mind. Ponder this.

Happiness, wealth, friendship, love, health, wisdom, knowledge. All can be attained, do you try to attain these aspects of life? are you good enough to realize them?

You make your world.

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins

104

Okay, just a bit of an aside with this, I have to point out that the books of Moses were not, in fact, written BY Moses. Before you jump all over me on this, let me explain a bit.

The laws and books of Moses were an oral lore handed down several generations before they were written down (much like the gospels – but that’s a whole 'nother discussion). So would there not be a lot of room for mosification/addition/distortion along the way? Not saying that for sure they were, but the possibility certainly exists.

105

Part II

Sickness, disease, poverty, misery, fear, loneliness, despair, unhappiness.
All can be avoided or overcome, do you think about how you are going to avoid or overcome these? Are you good/strong enough to actually do it?

You make your world.

P.S. CD - I think it is more dangerous for people to not realise they have control over their lives. That is in general what is wrong with our country and many other today.

Vegita ~ prince of all sayajins

106

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Happiness, wealth, friendship, love, health, wisdom, knowledge. All can be attained, do you try to attain these aspects of life? are you good enough to realize them?
[/quote]

But all of these things are subjective. To be happy, all I need do is decide “I am happy”. Believe it, and it’s true. So while I have the power to be happy, is it actual power, or merely self-delusion?

107

It is true power, Control is power, Ultimate power. When you exact ultimate control over yourself you are experiencing your true power your true identity. Since there is no limit to what one can control, as you learn to control more, you gain perspective and basically ascend. you learn that there is more to control than previously thought. Soon one can shape thier existance on a whim of desire. Weather for good or bad, does not matter, the ability to choose and control is where the truth lies.

One needs to put these thoughts in the back of the mind when first trying to understand the scope. Programm yourself so that the next time you slip into a daydream, these ideas are what you subconsious brings it’s attention to. The subconsious is much better suited to grasping large ideas. And more capable of processing the information within that idea.

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins

108

[quote]brider wrote:
I have to point out that the books of Moses were not, in fact, written BY Moses.[/quote]

I can’t help wondering… is that a surprise to anyone? After all, Moses dies at the end. I can’t very well write an autobiography and describe my own funeral.

That’s true, but when you take a modern Torah scroll and compare it to one forom the third century, you find zero differences. The same number of pages per scroll, the same number of lines per page, the same number of letters per line, with each and every letter identical. All 304,805 of them. (We’re a meticulous people.)

So it’s something of a paranoid idea to propose that a culture which demonstrably hasn’t altered the scriptures in over fifteen hundred years was changing it around to suit our own purposes when you weren’t looking.

I do agree that there are almost certainly inaccuracies and failures in the Torah, but I believe these inaccuracies and failures to stem exclusively from Moses’ inability to effectively communicate the substance of God’s commandments. I do not believe that Moses conspired to alter God’s commandments for his own purposes, nor do I believe anyone else has done so.

The events at Sinai, furthermore, happened in full view of all the Jewish people. This wasn’t Moses sneaking up on a mountain and then coming to tell people something; God Himself came to the mountaintop and spoke directly to the Jewish people. In that situation, it takes a good long while before you HAVE to write anything down.

109

[quote]Vegita wrote:
the ability to choose and control is where the truth lies.
[/quote]

Ahh, I see. “‘Do what thou wilt’ shall be the whole of the law,” says neo-Crowley.

Where does the rest of humanity fit into this plan? Are they mere distractions, to be swept aside when they get in your way? Tools, for you to control? What happens when other people start to exercise this sort of control? How do you avoid being controlled? After all, there is no limit to what they control – so they might choose to control you.

110

Hey CDarklock,

My Fascination with the Law comes from studying Jesus’ “life” in the bible and wanting to “taste and see that all the ways of the Lord are good.”

Jesus when in the desert and was tempted, he quoted from deuteronomy for his “defense/reasoning.” And if Jesus is the fullfillment of the Law, how in all the ways did he fullfill it. Pauls writings were based on the Law too (I know you don’t like them, oh well).

The Laws a God sets out need to be in keeping with their character/being. So living by the laws are one side of the coin. But what Jesus came to show us is that if you seek that which wrote the laws or the spirit in which the laws are written you rise above the mere actions the law dictates and you can realize applications of the Law the Law doesn’t even address. When you seek the spirit it then has the ability to change your inside directions. The patriarchs demonstrate this. God knew they were teachable, yet actually broke parts of even the ten commandments(yes I know this was before the 10 existed). It was not Abrahams obeying God to move, that provided righteousness but when he believed Gods promise (faith) of off-spring that did.

It still rests that God is more concerned with your inner direction. During Gods interaction with Cain, God says,"sin is crouching at your door; it must be mastered.

That is also why Samuel and some of the prophets talked about the Jews hearts being far from me even though they do the things he asks.

The Law is to enable God to be our fruitfulness. But only as it affects the inside, hence so many references to meditating on the word and Gods Law and also why the Shema is worded as it is and follows up with so many adjectives, as you said people can be lazy but Gods word/law is active.

Vegita brings up a good point, and I think that God has that in mind when in the Law he does what he does with Mounts Gerizim and Ebal. Every moment of every day you have the chance to be a blessing or a curse to those you meet. If Gods law is his way of blessing us then living it we get to be blessings to others. If our ways brings curses to us, then that is what we are to others also. You have the choice which it is. The choice to remain in your strength or humble yourself and miracles of all miracles become sons of the most high God.

As for Jesus’ Sabbath comments, where does it say to not eat on the sabbath? I’ve tried to find this but haven’t yet. The way I see it (please correct me if I am wrong) the sabbath was a day for man to stop the work of his own hands and focus on God. Yet doing Gods other decrees are still in effect. The way I see it is that Jesus was telling us that if every day we seek to be taught by God through our normal every day situations then in all ways you can be doing Gods work so every day becomes a sabbath if you rest in his strength and not your own.

Jesus put an end to the guilt and oppression of the external only applications (letter) of the Law not the Spirit of the Law.

Again just the way I view things.

Peace,
T-Ren

111

“Ahh, I see. “‘Do what thou wilt’ shall be the whole of the law,” says neo-Crowley.”

Ah that is some funny shit CD…“neo-crowley” It makes me think of vegita holed up in his basement with a grimoire while he chants arcane mumbo-jumbo.

No offense to you vegita I just had a funny mental picture.

112

[quote]Vegita wrote:
It is true power, Control is power, Ultimate power. When you exact ultimate control over yourself you are experiencing your true power your true identity. Since there is no limit to what one can control, as you learn to control more, you gain perspective and basically ascend. [/quote]

No limit to what you can control? So you can choose not to be struck by lightening, involved in a car accident, or infected by disease? You can will yourself to fly in spite of the limitations of gravity, or can run through a brick wall despite your fragile body?

Sign me up for that religion…I could use some of that in my life!

Back to reality, though…whether we choose to acknowledge it or not, we’re born into this mortal existence and bound by the limitations of the natural world. Religion serves as a means for us to better understand our place in this world, and perhaps to extrapolate this knowledge to better envision supernatural realms. Any “faith” that fails in those missions is a horrible waste of time.

So assuming that our powers are infinite is a pretty lousy foundation for religion, unless you want to fly around the block a couple of times to prove your premise…

113

No offense taken.

CD everyone does try to control you! Radio, print, TV, the Internet, your boss, your friends, your parents, your government. Every single person or group you come across (with very rare exeptions) whishes to somehow infect your decision making process so that you may do something that they approve of or want you to do. These are simple facts of life.

This is all well and good but you are missing the crux of my statements, that is why I wanted you to daydream on it or meditate on the thoughts if you practice meditation.

People who are happy have chosen to be that way, I think we can all agree that happiness is a nice and good thing. People who are miserable have chosen to be that way. Why? who knows, I have never cosen to be miserable so I cannot answer that. The thing is why do we get to choose these things? who gave us the right to decide our own fate? Some will say jesus this and that. Some will say allah, or budda. I say you gave yourself the right and the ability to choose for yourself, to take as much control or as little control as you want. The nice thing about it is that some may not want full control, many do not want it. Full power and control and enlightenment are scary, there is much more responsibility and attention required, more effort put into finding truth and reality.

Many people are afraid of WWIII of a complete war which chaos reigns supreme on our world. I say bring it. Engulf me in chaos so that I may reach to the core of my soul to draw on the power within to overcome chaos. In chaos there are no rules, one truly becomes what one was meant to be. True feelings and real actions are taken. You will find out who you really are when complete chaos hits. Some people experience small bouts of chaos here and there, when the are overtaken by a tornado or waiting out in the middle of a hurricane. When a burglar breaks into thier house when they are sleeping. What person do you become when these things happen? Are you already that person? do you change momentarily? I stay the same, I am unwaivering, I am truth.

114

Bosco, I never claimed the limitations of how the human vehicle acts in this 3rd dimensional world are limitless. I am simply stating that this human shell is not who we really are. It is a vehicle which we have a great deal of control over, Obviously the laws of nature are pretty solid, though I think some of the laws can be bent. Most cant be broken.

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins

115

Vegita: Thanks for the clarification. You may now proceed!! :slight_smile:

116

[quote]CDarklock wrote:
That’s true, but when you take a modern Torah scroll and compare it to one forom the third century, you find zero differences. The same number of pages per scroll, the same number of lines per page, the same number of letters per line, with each and every letter identical. All 304,805 of them. (We’re a meticulous people.)

So it’s something of a paranoid idea to propose that a culture which demonstrably hasn’t altered the scriptures in over fifteen hundred years was changing it around to suit our own purposes when you weren’t looking.

I do agree that there are almost certainly inaccuracies and failures in the Torah, but I believe these inaccuracies and failures to stem exclusively from Moses’ inability to effectively communicate the substance of God’s commandments. I do not believe that Moses conspired to alter God’s commandments for his own purposes, nor do I believe anyone else has done so.

The events at Sinai, furthermore, happened in full view of all the Jewish people. This wasn’t Moses sneaking up on a mountain and then coming to tell people something; God Himself came to the mountaintop and spoke directly to the Jewish people. In that situation, it takes a good long while before you HAVE to write anything down.
[/quote]

Of course the written record hasn’t changed. My point was that it could have changed along the way before it was written down.

117

[quote]T-Ren wrote:
My Fascination with the Law comes from studying Jesus’ “life” in the bible[/quote]

Jesus said a lot of great things. I don’t want to detract from that. If you’re looking for someone to emulate in your own life, there are worse people you could choose.

Paul’s writings were based on the law in much the same way Genesis was based on Babylonian mythology. There are some similarities, but they’re largely coincidental and don’t really add up to a whole lot.

This is one of those great things Jesus said. It’s the single most important thing about the Torah, and people commonly lose sight of it; the sects of modern Judaism are largely concerned with where one sits on that score. As recently as the sixties, the rabbinate was trying to decide whether electricity was fire; if it was, then Jews could not turn on an electric light on the sabbath. That’s how anal some of these people are.

It’s pretty obvious to me that God probably didn’t want us to sit around in the dark on the sabbath, but some people are just stuck in this outdated concept of what is and isn’t allowed. They sit around in the dark being miserable and afraid of angering God, because they simply don’t feel they know God well enough to make a decision on the matter. Me, I turn on the light, because I think I know God pretty well.

The danger is where one draws the line on the spirit of the law. Jesus made a lot of very strong points, and one of those points was that if you are entirely within the spirit of the law in all of your actions, all of the time – you do not have to follow the law AT ALL. That’s a dangerous thing to say. Not an INCORRECT thing to say, but a dangerous one.

The danger is the whole “within the spirit” problem. If you don’t study and understand the law, you cannot possibly know whether you are living within its spirit. So when christians today claim they don’t need to study and understand the old law, they’re absolutely wrong.

Opinions do, of course, differ. :wink:

You won’t find any specifics in the Torah on what you are forbidden to do on the sabbath. This is one of those cases where you have to figure out the spirit of the law, because there is no letter of the law.

However, what Jesus and his disciples were not supposed to do was pick and shuck the corn, which Judaism classifies as work. There’s nothing whatsoever wrong with eating corn if it’s already picked and shucked.

Now, this is Orthodoxy I’m talking about, and I’m not altogether in agreement with Orthodox Judaism. I personally don’t think there was anything wrong with Jesus and his disciples picking and eating corn on the sabbath, but there’s something very wrong indeed with how he justified it – and that’s where I take issue with it.

The crux of this matter is that God never really defined “work”, which has been a source of much consternation for Jews throughout history. The rabbinate eventually decided that since He specifically said to stop work on the temple for the sabbath, “work” would be the things you do when building the temple. So they made a list of thirty-nine things that you do when building a temple, and declared that you could not do any of these things on the sabbath.

There are several differing interpretations targeted at the spirit of the law rather than a list constructed by the rabbinate. There are also several criticisms of the list for being too strict, and I tend to agree.

However, there is a specific danger here that I think people overlook. The sabbath is set aside for a reason. It is not supposed to be like every other day. If you treat every day like the sabbath, you rob the sabbath of its distinction… and of its holiness. I believe that it is crucial to the spirit of the law for the sabbath to remain a distinct day, unlike any other, from beginning to end.

But I don’t think Jesus brought many people to the spirit of the law. True, the external applications cease – but so does everything else. Jesus appealed to our desire for convenience; sure, you can be saved, don’t go around and follow hundreds of laws. Everything is fine. Just believe in Jesus.

Today, christians practice blatant imitations of pagan festivals. It includes none of the festivals God Himself commanded in the days of Moses. Instead, it simply steals festivals from the druidic and polytheistic religions of the lands where christians settled. I don’t like that.

“When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.” (Deuteronomy 12:29-30)

It’s pretty hard to argue that the spirit of this law in any way allows us to pick up pagan festivals and dust them off for our own use.

I have very little problem with Jesus himself, as a man with ideas. I only have problems with the organised religion that has sprung up around him, and with the idea that Jesus is necessarily a divine figure to the Jewish people. I see Jesus as a strange god, and the Torah is pretty clear on those.

118

[quote]Vegita wrote:
CD everyone does try to control you![/quote]

But what allows you to continue to control yourself? If you can stop them, then you limit their control. If you can’t, then they limit yours. How can two beings have no limit to what they can control? It’s the same old question of the irresistible force and the immovable object.

Your statements are not new. Robert Heinlein once said “nobody does anything he does not want to do”. He wasn’t the first one to say it, either. So I don’t really need to meditate on your thoughts; they’re already familiar territory. That tends to happen when you do a lot of reading and research on spiritual matters.

You’re oversimplifying. What if you’re happy because Bob just broke his ankle? Bob doesn’t think it’s a good thing.

Heinlein again, “thou art God”. This is all sounding very familiar and very derivative.

Stasis isn’t truth, it’s death. This philosophy sounds very basic and naive, like something you might read in a comic book. What is so great about it?

119

[quote]brider wrote:
Of course the written record hasn’t changed.[/quote]

What do you mean “of course”? It’s fucking miraculous for two documents to be identical across fifteen hundred years. The christians can’t do it for fifty. Better recognise, son. :wink:

And every copy everywhere ended up with the exact same changes? The probability of that is so obscenely low, the thought isn’t even worth entertaining.

You know, the Jews did have written language when the Torah was first given, and we supposedly did set it down within the lifetimes of the witnesses. Of course, we can’t prove this, because we don’t have any four thousand year old manuscripts… but then, neither does anyone else.

120

Today, christians practice blatant imitations of pagan festivals. It includes none of the festivals God Himself commanded in the days of Moses. Instead, it simply steals festivals from the druidic and polytheistic religions of the lands where christians settled. I don’t like that.

This is so true. A religion that has as it’s roots, Judaism (supposedly) celebrates NONE of the Biblical Holy Days. Yet, pagan holidays abound within the religion. Saturnalia became Christmas, Celebration of Ishtar became Easter. What happened to the Biblically mandated days, they don’t exist within the religion that sprang up from Judaism. Out with the Bible (Tanak and Greek Testament) and in with the pagan. Just a pet peeve of mine. Do you eat cheeseburgers?

121

CDarklock, the previous message about Holy Days was for you.