'Full House' ???

Training
102

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

No a slow metabolism usually means more fat gain. Most bodybuilders would desire a fast metabolism so they could eat what they wanted.

As far as your comments about insulin sensitivity, one thing I hate lately is guys acting like they have this figured out…when I for one know they are doing this without blood tests but some generalized idea of these concepts.

Unless you were truly getting fat to the point of being OBESE and decreasing mobility, I would back off of spreading the false idea that simply being leaner somehow enhances insulin sensitivity. I have seen no evidence that someone is better in this area just because they are now “12%” instead of “15%”.
[/quote]

The relationship between leanness as measured by BMI and insulin sensitivity is well known and documented.

[/quote]

Leanness as measured by BMI??? BMI doesn’t measure leanness. It only measures a relationship between height and weight, its measure are not directly related to levels of fat or leanness. BMI is garbage.

103

[quote]americaninsweden wrote:

Leanness as measured by BMI??? BMI doesn’t measure leanness. It only measures a relationship between height and weight, its measure are not directly related to levels of fat or leanness. BMI is garbage.
[/quote]

I’m well aware of it’s limitations but for populations - not dividuals - it’s a good proxy for body fat.

My point, however, wasn’t to debate the merits of BMI, but instead to show those that are interested that the relationship between body fat and insulin resistance is well known and understood.

104

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Leaning out from 218 to 191, my fasting glucose (an indicator of insulin sensitivity) went from 100 to around 70.

Since then I’m up about 6 pounds and look leaner with a lower thickness of abdominal fat.

Please don’t tell me what does and doesn’t work for me. I’m not telling you what does or doesn’t work for you.[/quote]

hey double, sorry this probably is more suited for a PM, but have you discussed on this board what your plan/routine/diet was that led to your drastic leaning-up? you look great and i wanna know. i iz jelly.

if you do not want to answer here you can PM me.

105

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]americaninsweden wrote:

Leanness as measured by BMI??? BMI doesn’t measure leanness. It only measures a relationship between height and weight, its measure are not directly related to levels of fat or leanness. BMI is garbage.
[/quote]

I’m well aware of it’s limitations but for populations - not dividuals - it’s a good proxy for body fat.

My point, however, wasn’t to debate the merits of BMI, but instead to show those that are interested that the relationship between body fat and insulin resistance is well known and understood.[/quote]
I understood that but I don’t think that study (from the parts you have provided) sheds light on the issue. Maybe if the study showed people who claimed to be bodybuilders? “Healthy” people and bodybuilders (self-proclaimed or pro) probably have a significantly different levels of fat and bmi. The r2 doesn’t show a significant connection to body fat it shows it to bmi. Your extension of BMI alters what the study is and what it shows.

106

i will say again for the record,

my 2 cents,

I am more IMPRESSED with the guys who are as big AND muscular as Proffessor X (fuck that hurt saying that, lol), Marauder Meat, MattyXL, SteelyD, BiggJames, ect,

but,

as far as what I want to look like now at this point in my life, I would rather look like DoubleDeuce, ZZraw, detazathoth Gregron, Cortez, Maiden3.16 ect.

does that make any sense?

107

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
i will say again for the record,

my 2 cents,

I am more IMPRESSED with the guys who are as big AND muscular as Proffessor X (fuck that hurt saying that, lol), Marauder Meat, MattyXL, SteelyD, BiggJames, ect,

but,

as far as what I want to look like now at this point in my life, I would rather look like DoubleDeuce, ZZraw, detazathoth Gregron, Cortez, Maiden3.16 ect.

does that make any sense? [/quote]

I think, at any stage of the game, there’s a “larger than life” aspect to it. I love bodybuilding in the competitive sense, because while I can appreciate the intensity of the training, the dedication to the diet etc, I also view it as an art form. To me, that final result, seeing what the human body is capable of (size alone aside) is just an amazing thing.

Of course the one time I worked backstage at a rehearsal and taping of WWE RAW (that’s a story for another time -lol), and I got to hang out, eat, and BS with all of these genetic anomalies (and I say that with the greatest respect), well, despite most of these dudes not being anywhere near what a competitive BBer would consider lean, it was pretty damn impressive.

S

108

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
i will say again for the record,

my 2 cents,

I am more IMPRESSED with the guys who are as big AND muscular as Proffessor X (fuck that hurt saying that, lol), Marauder Meat, MattyXL, SteelyD, BiggJames, ect,

but,

as far as what I want to look like now at this point in my life, I would rather look like DoubleDeuce, ZZraw, detazathoth Gregron, Cortez, Maiden3.16 ect.

does that make any sense? [/quote]
No, not at all, yet I agree.

109

[quote]americaninsweden wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
i will say again for the record,

my 2 cents,

I am more IMPRESSED with the guys who are as big AND muscular as Proffessor X (fuck that hurt saying that, lol), Marauder Meat, MattyXL, SteelyD, BiggJames, ect,

but,

as far as what I want to look like now at this point in my life, I would rather look like DoubleDeuce, ZZraw, detazathoth Gregron, Cortez, Maiden3.16 ect.

does that make any sense? [/quote]
No, not at all, yet I agree.[/quote]

lol

110

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
i will say again for the record,

my 2 cents,

I am more IMPRESSED with the guys who are as big AND muscular as Proffessor X (fuck that hurt saying that, lol), Marauder Meat, MattyXL, SteelyD, BiggJames, ect,

but,

as far as what I want to look like now at this point in my life, I would rather look like DoubleDeuce, ZZraw, detazathoth Gregron, Cortez, Maiden3.16 ect.

does that make any sense? [/quote]

I think, at any stage of the game, there’s a “larger than life” aspect to it. I love bodybuilding in the competitive sense, because while I can appreciate the intensity of the training, the dedication to the diet etc, I also view it as an art form. To me, that final result, seeing what the human body is capable of (size alone aside) is just an amazing thing.

Of course the one time I worked backstage at a rehearsal and taping of WWE RAW (that’s a story for another time -lol), and I got to hang out, eat, and BS with all of these genetic anomalies (and I say that with the greatest respect), well, despite most of these dudes not being anywhere near what a competitive BBer would consider lean, it was pretty damn impressive.

S
[/quote]
ya, no kidding stu, you nailed it. a guy like matty or X comes into a restaurant me and wifey are eating at, im gonna nudge here and say “damn girl, look at that BIG mother fucker that just walked in, he’s HUGE” lol

but if a guy walks in looking like you or greg, etc. i would not say anything, but i quietly would say to myself “damn, he looks good, i wish i could look like that with my shirt off for my wife when we are on the beach, or in the bedroom, etc.”

111

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Leaning out from 218 to 191, my fasting glucose (an indicator of insulin sensitivity) went from 100 to around 70.

Since then I’m up about 6 pounds and look leaner with a lower thickness of abdominal fat.

Please don’t tell me what does and doesn’t work for me. I’m not telling you what does or doesn’t work for you.[/quote]

hey double, sorry this probably is more suited for a PM, but have you discussed on this board what your plan/routine/diet was that led to your drastic leaning-up? you look great and i wanna know. i iz jelly.

if you do not want to answer here you can PM me.[/quote]

LOL. Yeah, it’s around in different threads. And that depends on when exactly you are talking about it has been a constant evolution.

Right now, my diet is a conglomeration of parts of carb back loading, ketogenic, carb cycling, paleo, and probably some other stuff I don’t remember reading (seriously).

For training I’d call myself a lifting hermit. I lift in my basement and outside. And I go out and do all sorts of crap outside. Carry rocks up and down hills, throw tires, pull a sled, battle ropes, long distance carries (5+ miles some times), run laps around pastures, whatever. My wife likes to make fun of me when I do laps around the house holding a big rock over my head. Lifting wise right now I’m doing body building stuff working around an injury, but I’ve figured out a few moves that don’t aggravate anything and will probably get me back into doing heavy basics.

112

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
i will say again for the record,

my 2 cents,

I am more IMPRESSED with the guys who are as big AND muscular as Proffessor X (fuck that hurt saying that, lol), Marauder Meat, MattyXL, SteelyD, BiggJames, ect,

but,

as far as what I want to look like now at this point in my life, I would rather look like DoubleDeuce, ZZraw, detazathoth Gregron, Cortez, Maiden3.16 ect.

does that make any sense? [/quote]

ugh… I soooo don’t feel comfortable on that list.

113

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
i will say again for the record,

my 2 cents,

I am more IMPRESSED with the guys who are as big AND muscular as Proffessor X (fuck that hurt saying that, lol), Marauder Meat, MattyXL, SteelyD, BiggJames, ect,

but,

as far as what I want to look like now at this point in my life, I would rather look like DoubleDeuce, ZZraw, detazathoth Gregron, Cortez, Maiden3.16 ect.

does that make any sense? [/quote]

ugh… I soooo don’t feel comfortable on that list.[/quote]

you’ve become a sex object. Nothing but a cheap piece of meat.

114

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
i will say again for the record,

my 2 cents,

I am more IMPRESSED with the guys who are as big AND muscular as Proffessor X (fuck that hurt saying that, lol), Marauder Meat, MattyXL, SteelyD, BiggJames, ect,

but,

as far as what I want to look like now at this point in my life, I would rather look like DoubleDeuce, ZZraw, detazathoth Gregron, Cortez, Maiden3.16 ect.

does that make any sense? [/quote]

ugh… I soooo don’t feel comfortable on that list.[/quote]

you’ve become a sex object. Nothing but a cheap piece of meat.
[/quote]

Hah. Not that so much as it feels like a game of “one of these things is not like the others”

115

While I do get the point I dont think the “looking impressive” vs “looking hot shirtless” should be made into a “one or the other” kinda thing

You can be lean and make jaws drop if at the beach while also being impressive as fuck with a shirt on

THE THING IS there are specific attributes that makes someone look good shirtless and these attributed arent the same as witha shirt on…but one can have both

116

i dunno deuce, you are looking preeeeety lean and jacked, more lean than jacked, but the change is quite impressive.

117

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

The relationship between leanness as measured by BMI and insulin sensitivity is well known and documented. This study used healthy young men, not obese middle-aged females.

Objectives The study goals were to: 1) define the relationship between body mass index (BMI) and insulin resistance in 314 nondiabetic, normotensive, healthy volunteers; and 2) determine the relationship between each of these two variables and coronary heart disease (CHD) risk factors.

Results The BMI and the SSPG concentration were significantly related (r = 0.465, p < 0.001). The BMI and SSPG were both independently associated with each of the nine risk factors. In multiple regression analysis, SSPG concentration added modest to substantial power to BMI with regard to the prediction of DBP, HDL cholesterol and TG concentrations, and the glucose and insulin responses

Relationship between obesity, insulin resistance, and coronary heart disease risk FREE
Fahim Abbasi, MD; Byron William Brown, Jr, PhD; Cindy Lamendola, MSN, ANP; Tracey McLaughlin, MD; Gerald M Reaven, MD [/quote]

Americansweden responded to you correctly already, but I just wanted to make it very clear that “healthy” simply means without significant disease. It does NOT describe a “6-7day a week training bodybuilder who eats with the specific goal of becoming as muscular as possible”.

Not to mention BMI is very bad to use in a discussion about bodybuilding considering it does NOT take BODY FAT into consideration and most sedentary “healthy” people are not muscular at higher BMI’s.

[quote]americaninsweden wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]americaninsweden wrote:

Leanness as measured by BMI??? BMI doesn’t measure leanness. It only measures a relationship between height and weight, its measure are not directly related to levels of fat or leanness. BMI is garbage.
[/quote]

I’m well aware of it’s limitations but for populations - not dividuals - it’s a good proxy for body fat.

My point, however, wasn’t to debate the merits of BMI, but instead to show those that are interested that the relationship between body fat and insulin resistance is well known and understood.[/quote]
I understood that but I don’t think that study (from the parts you have provided) sheds light on the issue. Maybe if the study showed people who claimed to be bodybuilders? “Healthy” people and bodybuilders (self-proclaimed or pro) probably have a significantly different levels of fat and bmi. The r2 doesn’t show a significant connection to body fat it shows it to bmi. Your extension of BMI alters what the study is and what it shows.[/quote]

Very well said.

There are very few studies done on people with our goals in particular, especially the goals of someone with very extreme physique goals who trains regularly.

Yes, EXERCISE has a hell of a lot to do with your state of health and being…therefore, ignoring that to only focus on “healthy” people is not the way to explore more about the specific effects of BODYBUILDING and BODY FAT LEVELS and the direct correlation to “insulin resistance”.

118

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

And I bet the relationship would be even better with body fat percentage than with BMI.[/quote]

Yeah, the problem with that is “betting” is not making it true.

119

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I have seen none, but if you can find a study that specifically shows a young lifter who trains daily and is HUGE who somehow has worse “insulin sensitivity” ONLY because he is a little fatter right now than last month, post it.

That is why some of us talk about “bro science”. There are tons of people simply willing to accept this as truth without any proof other than talk.[/quote]

What a frustrating way to try to have a discussion. As a medical professional, you must realize how ridiculous an expectation of a study like that one is.

Can you post a study that specifically shows a lifter who trains daily and is huge who somehow has more muscle ONLY because he gained a lot of weight, held it for a while, then leaned out, rather than gained it more slowly while keeping fat gain in check? Of course not, and that shouldn’t be a requirement to discuss whether or not others have gotten good results from it, and noticed that it seemed to help them personally.
[/quote]

Wow…that isn’t what was being discussed…and what is up with the attitude?

The discussion was WHERE IS THE SCIENCE SHOWING BEING JUST A LITTLE FATTER SOMEHOW SHOWS SIGNIFICANT CHANGES IN “INSULIN RESISTANCE”.

Look, this ridiculous approach by some of you is getting a little old. If you want to discuss topics, do so. Stop jumping into discussions to call me out for no reason.

Yes, I know there are few studies done on our specific population. That is the point. Bro-science likes to fill in the gaps with what is most popular. This discussion is about what is actually true.

120

Whatever. It works for me and a significant indicator for my insulin sensitivity greatly improved.

I’ll do what works, even if there aren’t specific studies telling me if it should or not.