'Full House' ???

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

I’m basing that scenario off of what you said everyone should do, which is change as little as possible with regards to nutrition.
[/quote]

Oh…so you really can not understand that this is about seeing what happens from the training and making changes to diet based on that? No one said keep diet the same forever. You seem to have a real hard time with this…when I am sure most of the really big guys and especially Steely can udnerstand it just fine.

No, I would not have a newb start with being super analytical about his diet before he learns how to work hard in the gym at all.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

You said he has visible musculature in the traps, chest, and arms, which can remain “neat” (opposite of sloppy perhaps?) even in obesity provided the person has non-severe obesity or overweight.

Giveaways that are more useful are the lower back and abdomen and waist size. If someone is NATURAL (no anabolic drugs), normal height, and sports a 38 to 40 inch pants size, he’s probably quite fat. [/quote]

He said separation and definition…not musculature…and no, no one is OBESE with muscle separation and definition in their delts and chest.

Please stop this nonsense.[/quote]

Yeah, and I’ve said repeatedly that there are some obese people with separation in some areas while being obese.
[/quote]

Dear Lord, so in general, you would see someone like that and think OBESE?

Please. You are losing credibility with this crap.

[/quote]

No, not in genera considering I don’t walk around looking everyone up and down, analyzing their bodies, and coming to conclusions with some reasonable bodyfat estimations. I’ve been to some hardcore gyms with some serious 275+ pound powerlifters and strongmen and didn’t have an inclination to think, “Oh, that guy: he looks obese”, “This guy, lean.” “That guy, ripped.” I’m just not interested in analyzing people I see. I’m not interested in random strangers or people in general in regards to how fat or lean they are

If I saw you in person, I’d know you have a lot of muscle and work out seriously but obviously aren’t lean. ONLY–repeat: ONLY!–if you or someone else brought up your bodyfat, would I even have a damn comment on it. Sorry, I’ve seen too many people in person with 6 to 7% up close to think differently.

[quote]steven alex wrote:
Just had a quick look of images on the net with people both trained and not trained and X looks no where near twenty five percent. Not too sure how accurate the images were and as this is a boring topic I couldnt be bothered to invest more than a quick look at pics[/quote]

Dude, no one anywhere but this forum would see “25+%body fat” in that pic.

You have to love this level of nonsense.

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

No, not in genera considering I don’t walk around looking everyone up and down, analyzing their bodies, and coming to conclusions with some reasonable bodyfat estimations. I’ve been to some hardcore gyms with some serious 275+ pound powerlifters and strongmen and didn’t have an inclination to think, “Oh, that guy: he looks obese”, “This guy, lean.” “That guy, ripped.” I’m just not interested in analyzing people I see. I’m not interested in random strangers or people in general in regards to how fat or lean they are

If I saw you in person, I’d know you have a lot of muscle and work out seriously but obviously aren’t lean. ONLY–repeat: ONLY!–if you or someone else brought up your bodyfat, would I even have a damn comment on it. Sorry, I’ve seen too many people in person with 6 to 7% up close to think differently. [/quote]

Wow…so since you have seen people at 6-7%…that means I am over 25?

LOL.

Yeah, keep trying to make that shit make sense.

It still doesn’t.

In general you wouldn’t…but here you would.

LOL!

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

I’m basing that scenario off of what you said everyone should do, which is change as little as possible with regards to nutrition.
[/quote]

Oh…so you really can not understand that this is about seeing what happens from the training and making changes to diet based on that? No one said keep diet the same forever. You seem to have a real hard time with this…when I am sure most of the really big guys and especially Steely can udnerstand it just fine.

No, I would not have a newb start with being super analytical about his diet before he learns how to work hard in the gym at all.[/quote]

OK, after how long and/OR how much progress, woudl you start making changes to the diet. And is the newb not clearly “robbing himself” of that UNIQUE (never gonna be there again) opportunity in the first 6 months of training by not following a sound diet. To me, THAT is “robbery” of time considering that if the diet isn’t in check to start, a whole damn re-education process has to start later on and that time can’t be gotten back!

Again, WHEN do you introduce dietary changes?! It’s clear you won’t repost your noob recommendations and I can’t find them. So then perhaps you can at least tell us WHEN and what you’ll do with this intermediate lifter (or even might be STUCK at noob status because of a possible crumby diet in the first place).

Also, I asked twice before: What is your recommended five way split for noobs with no lifting experience and abysmal work capacity?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Dear Lord.

Kids, I am not obese. If you see someone who looks like I did in that pic, calling them obese will make you look dumb.

Please don’t be stupid, kids.[/quote]

[quote] Professor X wrote:

That is your perspective…which is wrong. No one was talked down to.

[/quote]

Please explain how calling them kids repeatedly is not talking down to them. Especially as during that first quote, you were talking to Brick, who has a Masters in Nutrition and is a Registered Dietition, making him probably the person with the greatest educational background on this topic. Heavytriple also, as a Graduate student, looks at pictures of people and sees their Dexa scans/Bod pod measurements, meaning he probably has the most “real-world experience” seeing pictures of people’s bodies and seeing their real BF%, as we know calipers and other ways are not nearly as accurate. And Stronghold has experience with Dexa scans as well, and plenty of experience measuring bodyfat by calipers, the way you’ve been measured. And, as you keep bringing up CT, he has more recently, since saying the 16% thing, said you looked to be in the ‘dead zone’ that is anywhere from 16-22%, and then said that since you carry fat very favorably, it could be higher than it looks.

FWIW, during my Kinesiology degree, I did look at dozens of examples of pictures of people, along with their Dexa scans that had their bodyfat percentage. Without fail, the more muscular guys looked leaner at higher bodyfat percentages. You will have ‘some semblance of abs’ at a higher BF when you’re carrying a ton of muscle so you have more abs to show. Nobody is saying you aren’t carrying a lot of muscle, or that you don’t have an impressive physique. Nobody is saying you’re just a fat guy, at all. But, based on the picture you posted, and the pictures I’ve seen of people along with their actual BF%, based on DEXA scans (ie actually accurate), I would be surprised if you were under 20% BF. I’m not saying you are 25+ or not, because obviously we’re all just guessing here, but I don’t think it’s ridiculous to think so, and I would probably put you at low-20’s. I’ve seen pictures of guys that were 25+ that didn’t look ‘obese’ the way most people think of it.

THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK Don’t take this to mean I’m saying your physique is not impressive. You’re a huge dude, you’ve built a ton of muscle, I’m sure you turn a lot of heads and most people would be impressed. But I do think your estimation of your own bodyfat is low, and I think it’s just because of the stigma behind the word ‘obese’ itself, when we are not just trying to call you a fat guy, we are simply making an estimate of your bodyfat.


Here’s a picture of a guy who was DEXA scanned at 25.5% bodyfat.

Here’s a picture of a guy who was DEXA scanned at 22.2% bodyfat.

Both of these guys do not look anywhere near what most here are thinking of ‘obese,’ yet, that’s the amount of bodyfat they were carrying. I do think both of them, especially the 22.2% guy, looks leaner than that picture you posted (do not read this as more impressive, they obviously are not), and as you are carrying more muscle, you could carry more fat than them and still look lean.

Again, you have a lot of muscle, and an impressive physique. However, it is not ridiculous to think you are over 20%, or MAYBE even 25% bodyfat.

For the life of me, in a sport/activity that is completely visual and relies, in part on illusion (bodybuilding) or pure strength (powerlifting/oly-lifting), or something in between (strong as possible but an eye on physique), I cannot understand why these conversations involve ANY NUMBERS AT ALL (ie. 25.6436% bodyfat, 15.3546% bodyfat) that aren’t weights lifted or bodyweight competition brackets.

To my knowldege someone can compete in BB at 8% bodyfat and beat someone who is 6% bodyfat, no? Besides, THIS ISN’T THE BODYBUILDING FORUM ← that was kind of a joke…

I’ve never heard a judge ask to see someone’s abs or DEXA scan report at a PL comp.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

No, not in genera considering I don’t walk around looking everyone up and down, analyzing their bodies, and coming to conclusions with some reasonable bodyfat estimations. I’ve been to some hardcore gyms with some serious 275+ pound powerlifters and strongmen and didn’t have an inclination to think, “Oh, that guy: he looks obese”, “This guy, lean.” “That guy, ripped.” I’m just not interested in analyzing people I see. I’m not interested in random strangers or people in general in regards to how fat or lean they are

If I saw you in person, I’d know you have a lot of muscle and work out seriously but obviously aren’t lean. ONLY–repeat: ONLY!–if you or someone else brought up your bodyfat, would I even have a damn comment on it. Sorry, I’ve seen too many people in person with 6 to 7% up close to think differently. [/quote]

Wow…so since you have seen people at 6-7%…that means I am over 25?

LOL.

Yeah, keep trying to make that shit make sense.

It still doesn’t.

In general you wouldn’t…but here you would.

LOL![/quote]

Right, because HERE we’re speaking about bodyfat estimations. Why would I start talking about bodyfat estimations unless it was a topic at hand?!

Yup. you’re right: this is what logical people do sometimes: make estimations based off of comparison, whether that comparison is based off of someone at 5 to 7%, 10 to 12% or 20% and beyond.

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:
Here’s a picture of a guy who was DEXA scanned at 22.2% bodyfat.

Both of these guys do not look anywhere near what most here are thinking of ‘obese,’ yet, that’s the amount of bodyfat they were carrying. I do think both of them, especially the 22.2% guy, looks leaner than that picture you posted (do not read this as more impressive, they obviously are not), and as you are carrying more muscle, you could carry more fat than them and still look lean.

Again, you have a lot of muscle, and an impressive physique. However, it is not ridiculous to think you are over 20%, or MAYBE even 25% bodyfat.[/quote]

This guy looks pretty much untrained, so its safe to say most of his upper leg mass is fat along with abdominal area. Also aren’t people genetically different ie, where they store fat, intra abdominal etc. This guy could store a lot of fat behind his ab wall.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
…when I am sure most of the really big guys and especially Steely can udnerstand it just fine.
[/quote]

You and me-- we speak fluent Cheeseburger. Few have discovered the Roastetta Stone.

Shhhh-- it’s a secret club, so I can’t talk anymore about it except to say:

Cheeseburger! Cheeseburger! Cheeseburger!

PX knows what I’m talking about.

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:
Here’s a picture of a guy who was DEXA scanned at 25.5% bodyfat.[/quote]

Shit if thats 25% i must be at least 40!

[quote]Professor X wrote:

This is about PROGRESS MADE…and if someone is making good progress, why would you act like they aren’t

[/quote]

The problem is what may be decent progress to a begginer could be shitty progress from the view of an advanced guy…

Just as what could be viewed as meh progress from a begginer could be viewed as wow progress from someone else…

Ive had a woman that was unhappy with ONLY losing 20lbs in 8weeks… she went from 175 to 155…

See the problem here?

I agree with Stronghold… you cannot know what someone’s optimal progress is without doing everything perfectly… why wait and waste time if one could start from the get go…

I see this pretty much like I see the “early steroids use” tbh… OBVIOUSLY if someone is gonna eat chicken and rice and whatever and eat 1400 cals instead of the 1800 from pizza well then he might as well go on with pizza… but why not do things RIGHT from the get go… it wont rob anyone of gains…quite the opposite

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You won’t know how someone will do until they actually do it.

[/quote]

Without anyone actually doing it I can tell you right now that someone would look better if he was to consume 2500cals from a balanced diet (whichever you like) vs 2500cals coming from beer.

Sure some little changes might not affect everyone the same but this is NOT what stronghold is refering to…

[quote]Professor X wrote:

No, I would not have a newb start with being super analytical about his diet before he learns how to work hard in the gym at all.[/quote]

They are not mutually exclusive…

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
For the life of me, in a sport/activity that is completely visual and relies, in part on illusion (bodybuilding) or pure strength (powerlifting/oly-lifting), or something in between (strong as possible but an eye on physique), I cannot understand why these conversations involve ANY NUMBERS AT ALL (ie. 25.6436% bodyfat, 15.3546% bodyfat) that aren’t weights lifted or bodyweight competition brackets.

To my knowldege someone can compete in BB at 8% bodyfat and beat someone who is 6% bodyfat, no? Besides, THIS ISN’T THE BODYBUILDING FORUM ← that was kind of a joke…

I’ve never heard a judge ask to see someone’s abs or DEXA scan report at a PL comp.[/quote]

Well the discussion took place because some people were saying its not necessary to have that much extra fat… then a picture was posted for people to evaluate… so people did…

I think this is what happened and why we are talking %bf here…

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

your comparison with height would be along the lines of being 6 foot and someone saying are you 5’11 and you say no actually im 6 foot

then another guy coming along and saying hey are you 5’9???

one would be a reasonable guess the other would be dumb [/quote]

Well, I believe my comparison and estimation based off comparison isn’t dumb because how different his body looks than someone who is 10 to 12% or even lower. You know, kind of like a continuum of estimation, what many people have when they estimate measurements.

Not dumb, because as X and others have said, people store weight across the body differently than one another. I’ve never seen his lower back, profile picture, and I’ve only seen one a blurry one of his legs from distance.

Thanks for the compliment (in sincerity, not sarcasm).

I’m not trolling; I’m discussing nutrition and exercise, two topics which I like.

[quote]

25%BF is flat out very fat [/quote]

It’s actually not horribly fat, but it’s getting up there, and at that point I think people should watch themselves.

I NEVER compared Thompson or Bolton and Professor X. I said repeatedly that although they are obese, they have still made huge accomplishments in powerlifting and muscular gain and that upon seeing them I wouldn’t give a rat’s ass about their bodyfat percentages or obesity. I’d be thinking, "Holy s–t! That’s Andy Bolton/Donnie Thompson.

Thompson actually gave a seminar a half hour from my home today, hosted by a writer on this site. I almost went just to meet him and see him in person but I’ve been to a couple of seminars put on by powerlifters and although I don’t know everything about lifting, I thought the info would be repetitive. Eh, on second thought I should’ve gone.

[quote]
the pic posted is not grossly fat by any stretch and is 100lbs+ lighter than either of those 2 [/quote]

As least we agree on some things.

But by the way, there can be a 100# difference between two obese individuals.

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
I guess I don’t understand what the fascination is with the “full house” look. Would you rather be big, muscular and lean… or big, muscular and fat? I will choose the former every time. It’s one thing to say getting big, muscular and fat is beneficial to help you acheive the big and lean physique one day, but to look at “full house” as an end goal, in a bbing forum, I just dont get.

Please help me. [/quote]

I always thought lean and fat were extremes on opposite sides of the same body fat continuum and therefore there are many degrees between them.But most forum posters here seem to live in a binar world.

[quote]Iron_Made wrote:

I don’t see anything problematic in your post and was just responding to X’s statement. I probably should of removed the quoted portion above his remark. [/quote]

It’s OK. You seem like well mannered guy.

[quote]

In regards to his comment:

I have noticed that very often when certain posters respond to what X writes it is in a different manner/style then when they respond to others. This happens regardless of what X posts. It happens whether he writes something intelligent or not. It happens whether or not he is being argumentative or not. I am not including you specifically into this group nor do I wish to “name names” but the fact of the matter is there is most definitely bias present in some posters minds when answering X’s posts and thus they (his posts) receive a connotation, so to say, no matter what he writes it is viewed in a certain light.

Do you agree or disagree that there is bias present in some posters responses to PX? I hope I clarified what i meant.[/quote]

You did clarify what you meant. And OF COURSE there’s a bias in the way people respond to X. It takes GREAT self control and discipline to not respond in an inflammatory manner to someone who’s often intrusive, rude, confrontational, derogatory, quarrelsome, sarcastic, and insulting. Misinterpreting statements, trying to put words in people’s mouths, and trying to buffalo people into silence.

I personally have tried to remain civil and even paid a few compliments (why, I don’t know, considering the guy continues to act rudely).

Here’s an example of mincing my words.

Me: “X, I don’t discredit you or any guys who are full house, but many of the guys I PERSONALLY have known who have to fight women off with a stick are or were very lean.”

X: “Are you trying to say I don’t get attention. Is this attention I get imagined?”

You can see the incoherency in communication right there. Where the hell in my statement did I say X doesn’t get REAL attention? Nowhere.

Example 2 (in regards to steroids and health in a thread about Matt Duval)

Me: “These guys (top bodybuilders) sometimes use 5 to 20 times the clinical doses of roids.”

X: “How do you know Matt Duval took 5 to 20 times the clinical dose?!”

See the rudeness again. Where did I say Duval did that or that I would even know what the hell he took? I didn’t!

Then there’s the tyrannical stance.

An example of this is saying something like, “NO ONE would think this guy is fat.”

A few of us: “X, not only do we think he is fat; we think he might be obese.”

X: “You guys are crazy.”

As if we’re not supposed to or allowed to form reasonable estimations or conclusions or judgments and if we do and they don’t fall in line with his belief system or opinion, we are considered nuts, silly, immature, dumb, or “retarded”.

I can go on, but choose not to, because when it comes down to it, I don’t “have it in” for the guy, and I’m NOT the be-all-end-all expert here and I’m not perfect myself.

Most of us would react differently if he or anyone else who disagrees with us just simply explained why the estimate or do things in a polite, reasonable manner. I’m trying to stay civil. Some don’t. Saying stuff like, “C’mon man, you can’t think that. You’re obviously trolling,” isn’t how you peacefully communicate.

Oh, one more thing. What’s also unsettling is not answering inquiries about how things are to be done after stating he knows how it’s done.

Some examples:

“A noob shouldn’t follow a full body routine three times a week.”

“Well X, how should he do it?”

No response.

“A noob shouldn’t eat like that.”

“Well X, how should he eat.”

No response.

“Some pros do very dumb or unsavory stuff (eg, throw financial and other responsibilities out the window).”

“There’s less of that now.”

“Oh yeah, then how come someone well connected just told me that… and that… and that…”

No response.

That too can be very irritating.