If middle class or lower, the obligation to work full time, making it so that women are pressured and must “do it all,” which often leads to burnout and resentment.
Some men do believe women have everything so easy, and in some ways in the current day I think they do have some things easier and are granted permission to be anti-social or to behave poorly. However, I don’t think they ever had everything in their lives easy.
And I’m not a white knight saying or male feminist saying this, as some are aware.
My wife is a pediatrician. Even adjusting for numbers (more moms bring their kids in than dads), there are a lot more women who think she’s “the nurse”.
Sometimes it does for an extremely short period whilst the girl is trying to get over a relationship. It’s not rare that I see a girl “use” a man like this as an emotional punchbag and a dick to cry on until they get a better offer or feel better about the previous love story ending.
I’d add that the “best friend” of a woman has only one other shot: date other women while maintaining the friendship. If he’s just her lapdog, it’ll never work. But if he shows little to no sexual interest in her and dates other (preferably good looking) women, his female friend will see him in a different light. Basic social proof theory. He’s now worthy and that worth is recognized by other women.
The friend-guy has to seem somewhat unattainable or “lose-able” vs. always being there as her backup or, as @cdep89 said, her “dick to cry on.” That’s hilarious, BTW.
I agree with your list and follow up point #4. I am guessing there are other items as well. I think there are some items being related to being an unattractive woman that are unique to that subset of women. I think attractiveness has advantages for both men and women, but if that is lacking, there are unique challenges for both. Some of it is from the same gender.
I think there is truth to this.
This came up in my conversation with my SIL. Now she could be correct. Hard to tell. She didn’t get a promotion, and she placed the blame on sexism. She is also very far ahead of her peers that have HS only education (with bonus she makes 6 figures, so if held back, it is only recently).
Agree. It is tough to have conversations about hot button topics with most people. Many get upset, or just don’t listen.
My thinking on this is that education system needs to be looked at. Perhaps requiring debate courses in which things like logical fallacies and attacks are penalized and explained. IDK, this wouldn’t solve the issue, but I think it would help.
We’ve even seen this on T-Nation with the number of partners thread.
They have a poor understanding of how women think. Likely a result of popular media, where guys win over uninterested women consistently. Truth is for a majority of women, they know within quite a short amount of time if they are interested in you for a sexual relationship. If they are a flirty friend, then there is a good chance, but if not, good luck. Of course, exceptions exist, but usually it involves time away and the guy becoming more desirable during that time.
I think another factor other than social proof is that women (and men) want to feel in love. To strongly desire someone. When a guy becomes her lap dog, it takes away her ability to strongly desire him.
This isn’t just for the male friend being interested in his lady friend situation. In a relationship, there is always an unequal amount of love for each other. When the woman loves the man more, she gets to be in a position of longing for her man. She gets to adore him. The man will know he has won the woman in this situation. He loses out on the desire factor here. The opposite where the man loves the woman more has flipped roles. However, I don’t think on average women handle this as well as men. They don’t get the fuzzy feelings for the man while being on the pedestal. I think many men have actually had the opposite effect that they desire by trying to win over women with romantic gestures.
Not all of such men are beta orbiters. Some are just the opposite; they just happen to be in a woman’s social circle and given chances they will advance.
This sparks my curiosity. Is that because they are poor, irresponsible, sloppy, ill-mannered, disrespectful, or whatever other negative characteristic that turns normal women off?
As some know here, usually I sympathize with other men, particularly young men. But this time I’m not going to seem nice. I’m 44 and I’m one of the oldest members in my gym, which is located on our Main Street that I go to often. There have been times in my in which I’ve looked around at Gen Z men and thought to myself that if I were a young woman I would not be happy considering the standards of conduct and function I have now or what I will expect of a future suitor for my daughter. Couple that with what I see in some older men, and if I were an older woman, I’d likely be unhappy too. And I’m not talking about socioeconomic status or looks.
A sloppy or menacing, tough-guy presentation. Keep in mind I do not mind people who just happen to be tough or have imposing physiques, or eccentric styles, as some of my friends and family members are like that. It is a presentation that I can’t quite explain but I know it when I see it. Stank face is part of it.
Lack of spatial awareness, shown specifically, for example, by mumbling or even loudly spewing tough-guy song lyrics between sets or while walking along the sidewalk, sometimes even while being close to other people. I consider this highly offensive and believe this is done for intimidation or tough-guy LARPing/fantasy when done next to people. If some guy wants to do that in his backyard, fine. I’ve even pumped my fist to music in my car while driving to the gym, but I would not do that near people because I think it would be weird and offensive.
Open vulgarity and objectifying talk. For example, I was next to a guy and a female gym worker. I was not trying to eavesdrop as don’t like being nosy, but they were speaking so others could hear. They were talking about people and places and the guy said to the woman, “I f—d her”—out loud.
An inability in some to follow simple rules, as seen in places I’ve worked, even having annoyance towards an administrator for expecting rule following.
Whaaaatttt? ChildREN?? Wow! I’m stunned, though I know I’m hitting my 10th dating anniversary with “Hockey,” lol. That’s awesome, though. Congrats!
I tend to avoid immersing myself in the agendas of political movements of this sort. Life is stressful enough without swimming in other people’s rage, and there is almost nothing I can do in either direction (for or against). What I will say of the first and second wave is that for me, personally, a positive outcome was the ability to leave my shitty marriage. Thank God I was able to escape my ex’s self-destruction to create a peaceful, stable life for myself. Thank you, early feminists! I think of the second wave as women going their own way (WGTOW). And of course I know that this has had negative impacts for us all, but I’m okay with those. A fair trade for full personhood.
I actually agree with you here, which is why I avoid these movements. I see the NRA’s magazine once a month as I get the mail, and the cover picture always dismays me similarly. I believe with all my heart that these outrage movements are created and supported by our corrupt government, which does very well with us all shrieking at one another about our hot buttons, whatever they are. Again, not a healthy place for me to dwell given my inability to affect change beyond posting here and having conversations with the small number of people I encounter.
There are reasonable women who grew similarly tired of the bullshit, and for the same reason. And I don’t know, but maybe it’s okay?
Haha, I’m their therapist, and that’s exactly what we’re doing and what they’ve come looking for.
I think this is a question so big as to be impossible to answer. For poor people, women are still very much trapped in their dependency on men. Many people believe that the government amply rewards single motherhood, but it’s not enough to live on with any stability, so they pair up with men to share apartments and try to cobble together a car. And here comes the domestic violence and drugs. Being a lowest-rung worker with kids is near-impossible due to the difficulties of sick kids, shift work, one’s own sickness and everyone’s appointments and school meetings and such. However…
I completely agree with this and don’t understand people who don’t see this from either side.
Oh no! It’s because I wanted someone as capable as laughter as I am, someone who values family as I do, someone whose imagination would be as much fun for me as mine is for others. I wanted someone with exceptional grooming (he flosses!) and a steady temper. I wanted a manly man who would value my feminine traits, but who wouldn’t feel threatened by my strong mind or the curiosity that has brought me to places like TNation, where I’ve stayed. Many men would feel threatened by this. I wanted someone like me in the most important ways: steady, good natured, cuddly, and warm. The details - what they do for work, how they keep themselves in shape, what hobbies - are unimportant to me. My husband and I have a “reading club” where we each read, but not the same book. He finished one last year. Me? Who knows. Many. It doesn’t matter. He agreed to the club to make me happy. I sometimes slog through forests in the rain to make him happy.
All of the men I went out with were clean and employed, most in a professional capacity.
Of note, I have three sons. They are also well groomed, well employed, and well mannered by and large (their mother worked out to rap as they were growing up, so there are some unfortunate swearing issues) (true of their mother as well). And let me offer for your consideration @jshaving, perhaps the loveliest person on the internet, who I believe is still in his early 20’s.
There will be jshavings out there when the time comes for your daughters. That was my point about the percentiles. I’m simply not interested in someone who is in the 30th percentile for honesty or the 40th percentile for temperament, as @twojarslave is not interested in someone not capable of matching him, though it sounds like we both made early mistakes in this regard.
Haha, I saw it, but husband and dog came in and it was dinnertime. What could I do?? DINNER. Right now I’m sneak-posting while he takes the dog to be boarded so we can head over to your place (ME) for the weekend. As soon as I finish I’m going to scatter clothes on the bed and jump in the shower, pretending to have been getting ready the whole time he was gone. Because I take a mystifying amount of time to do this sort of thing, he’ll never question that I only got my bathing suit and two shirts out in an hour.
With that in mind, do you want feminism shut down? What do you think would end feminism? Likely the overwhelming majority of all American adults, men and women, are feminists.
I support free speech so I don’t want it shut down in any comprehensive, government enforced sense.
I don’t think tax money should fund people teaching fourth wave feminism as a factual and valid worldview. It is right there with critical race theory, Aryan race theory, and left wing gender theory for me.
Privately funded colleges are free to engage in all of the narcissistic navel gazing they can sell to their customers. Using tax money to advance clearly destructive ideologies as factual and valid worldviews is pure madness.
As far as ending it, it’s hopefully just another bad idea society has to work its way through and reject. Hopefully future societies will look back on our current era of encouraging radical feminism and transgender mutilation as a brief period of social madness.
I imagine it will be viewed similarly to the ancient steppe nomad practice of skull elongation that they performed on their innocent children.
Its basic tennets would be like when little kids are fighting and an adult steps in, but in this wave it’s adults and the Judge, professor, arbiter of any type steps in and says “Alright! Enough. Quit being a dick! Both of you!”.
Big raucous protest over what gender purple Kool-aid is? Police step in and announce “You are now ordered to quit being a bunch of dicks. Any further fuckery will result in police action.”.
Its actually more of a common sense approach to equality.
I don’t think it takes government. I mean, don’t you think if every American male, did an about face and declared, “Party’s over; we are done with feminism?,” and took some action or stopped some actions, it would end?
