Bonez+Modok ftw. Oleena ftl.
Last time I ate fruit I got soo fat. I swear.
[quote]Mateus wrote:
[quote]Brotha123 wrote:
Hey guys what are your takes on fruit? Is it okay to eat or not…i train mma 4-5 days aweek and lift weight wendlers 5/3/1 4days a week…just confused about them and fructose [/quote]
This train wreck has spiraled away from the original question. Dude, go ahead and eat the fruit. It has its benefits and as long as you are not eating a ton of it you will be fine. Small amounts of fructose from fruit sources along with other smart carb sources will help with glycogen stores. [/quote]
This.
Repost for those who have a short attention span an obviously missed it:
Kate Kline
BIS, PICP, CPT, Precision Nutrition Certified, BioSignature Certified
Lean Eating Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,844
There are a couple assertions in there that make me want to call Phil and have him add a caution sign to the smiley list. Specifically, the notion that fructose only serves to replenish liver glycogen and that fruit is essentially being looked at only in terms of it’s fructose content.
But first things first, why are you carb cycling outside of the nutrient timing laid out by PN? Or am I reading into your approach incorrectly?
Back to the somewhat faulty (or at least too absolute sounding) assertions -
Fructose can and does replenish more than liver glycogen - it’s preferential “target” is the liver however. (read: it can replenish muscle glycogen it just takes a longer route and makes sure the liver is looked after. Which by the way, needs to be looked after if you are glycogen depleted - you can’t be depleted and then just “refill” your muscles. The liver needs to be filled too). Moreover, it’s been shown that fructose can potentiate glycogen synthesis when combined with other sugars (albeit this is questionable). And if that weren’t enough, it’s also been shown to have a glycogen sparing effect. Now of course the positives stop when we’re talking about artificially copious amounts (read: non fruit).
Take home point though - fructose is metabolized into glyceraldehyde and dihydroxyacetone phosphate and these can readily enter the the glycolytic pathway. From there, some dancing around occurs but some of the fructose will end up as glucose and glycogen. Eat too much and yes, the liver gets stuffed and you get fat because of the propensity for a lipogenic effect. But that’s why you’re avoiding high-fructose corn-syrup. If you’re not consuming high fructose corn syrup or 1000g+ of fruit per day, you’re not triggering this propensity for lipogenesis. Or rather, it wouldn’t be the fruit intake that’s triggering it. Which brings me to my next point.
Fruit isn’t just fructose. Clearly there’s a huge upside in the phyto and micro nutrient departments - an upside people far too often downplay because they’re fixated on the often inconsequential finite details of caloric composition. But additionally, the carb content isn’t entirely, or with some fruits, even primarily fructose. And I’m not just talking about the fiber found in fruits. I’m talking specifically about the fact that many fruits have an appreciable amount (% wise) of other sugars. Primarily glucose.
And let’s not forget that per 100g of fruit, generally speaking we’re looking at 10g or less of total sugar content with fructose making up 33-66% (so 3-6g). That’s not a lot. Especially when one is looking to load glycogen.
So to answer your question, a combo of fruit and starchy carb sources is your best approach. But how much and when will depend on whether you’re following proper nutrient timing while doing this carb cycling or whether it’s some non-optimized carb intake system (meaning carbs all day).
Carter Schoffer
Senior Advisor, Precision Nutrition
Chief Body Transformation Architect,
Body Transformation Inc.
Last edited by Carter Schoffer; June 2nd, 2007 at 09:08 AM.
well i completley disagree on his 1000g of fruit comment…fructose will convert to fat if your glycogen stores are full…there can be no other answer…
But, i also want to say just because something converts to fat doesn’t make it bad…the body can still oxidize that fat for energy…it only becomes a problem when that extra fat leads to an excessive calorie surplus…
i agree with his middle ground approach at the end…most people who have good physiques seem to follow a similar approach…they are not extremist…they do what works based on results…
Sorry Modok, only body transformation architects are allowed to state their titles…
[quote]ajweins wrote:
Sorry Modok, only body transformation architects are allowed to state their titles…[/quote]
LOL.
[quote]ajweins wrote:
Sorry Modok, only body transformation architects are allowed to state their titles…[/quote]
HAHAHA.
God I love MODOK, I will follow him into battle anywhere.
I have experimented with different carbs and diets all around for years. The time where I was the most lean, really strong, and felt my best was with the addition of white rice. Yes, that Uncle Ben’s instant bullshit, post workout. I had no love handles to speak of (which have ALWAYS plagued me).
I think this question about carbs (or fruit in general) is rather limited to discuss, because we should also address current condition, the goal at hand, the training program involved, etc. Someone who is already lean handles carbs better, and gets more forgiveness with starchy carbs than a lard ass who has a ton of fat to lose.
Great shit Modok BTW.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
[quote]Oleena wrote:
Repost for those who have a short attention span an obviously missed it:
Kate Kline
BIS, PICP, CPT, Precision Nutrition Certified, BioSignature Certified
Lean Eating Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,844
There are a couple assertions in there that make me want to call Phil and have him add a caution sign to the smiley list. Specifically, the notion that fructose only serves to replenish liver glycogen and that fruit is essentially being looked at only in terms of it’s fructose content.
But first things first, why are you carb cycling outside of the nutrient timing laid out by PN? Or am I reading into your approach incorrectly?
Back to the somewhat faulty (or at least too absolute sounding) assertions -
Fructose can and does replenish more than liver glycogen - it’s preferential “target” is the liver however. (read: it can replenish muscle glycogen it just takes a longer route and makes sure the liver is looked after. Which by the way, needs to be looked after if you are glycogen depleted - you can’t be depleted and then just “refill” your muscles. The liver needs to be filled too). Moreover, it’s been shown that fructose can potentiate glycogen synthesis when combined with other sugars (albeit this is questionable). And if that weren’t enough, it’s also been shown to have a glycogen sparing effect. Now of course the positives stop when we’re talking about artificially copious amounts (read: non fruit).
Take home point though - fructose is metabolized into glyceraldehyde and dihydroxyacetone phosphate and these can readily enter the the glycolytic pathway. From there, some dancing around occurs but some of the fructose will end up as glucose and glycogen. Eat too much and yes, the liver gets stuffed and you get fat because of the propensity for a lipogenic effect. But that’s why you’re avoiding high-fructose corn-syrup. If you’re not consuming high fructose corn syrup or 1000g+ of fruit per day, you’re not triggering this propensity for lipogenesis. Or rather, it wouldn’t be the fruit intake that’s triggering it. Which brings me to my next point.
Fruit isn’t just fructose. Clearly there’s a huge upside in the phyto and micro nutrient departments - an upside people far too often downplay because they’re fixated on the often inconsequential finite details of caloric composition. But additionally, the carb content isn’t entirely, or with some fruits, even primarily fructose. And I’m not just talking about the fiber found in fruits. I’m talking specifically about the fact that many fruits have an appreciable amount (% wise) of other sugars. Primarily glucose.
And let’s not forget that per 100g of fruit, generally speaking we’re looking at 10g or less of total sugar content with fructose making up 33-66% (so 3-6g). That’s not a lot. Especially when one is looking to load glycogen.
So to answer your question, a combo of fruit and starchy carb sources is your best approach. But how much and when will depend on whether you’re following proper nutrient timing while doing this carb cycling or whether it’s some non-optimized carb intake system (meaning carbs all day).
Carter Schoffer
Senior Advisor, Precision Nutrition
Chief Body Transformation Architect,
Body Transformation Inc.
Last edited by Carter Schoffer; June 2nd, 2007 at 09:08 AM. [/quote]
I didn’t miss this. It is not fructose’s metabolic pathway, just an opinion from someone who knows just enough important-sounding words to mislead people.
Obviously you don’t understand metabolism because you were beside yourself that anyone wouldn’t pick an apple with a glycemic index of 39 over rice etc with GIs in the upper range. Fructose has NO effect on insulin. And you choosing your carbs based on the GI of the carb source is very simple-minded and backwards.
As a bodybuilder or physique athlete, high GI carb sources which contain all or mostly all starch or glucose are FINE. Better yet, they are awesome. The reasons for this you can look up in your studies, as you have a lot of studying to do on this subject. 99% of “trainers” do irrevocable harm to our pursuits for this very reason. They don’t know what they are talking about, but know enough catchy terms to sound like they do. They throw the terms around and captivate their audience.
MODOK
Pharm.D./Ph.D. Pharmacology[/quote]
We can continue potatoes on the potato thread if you like. I posted one just for this reason. Have at it.
Also, we need to clarify whether we’re talking about timing carbs or not.
If you’re timing them, potatoes and other fast carbs are great, obviously. But that wasn’t what the thread title stated. The OP mentioned nothing about timing, so I assumed he meant in general, whenever.
If I had to pick between a vat of white potatoes for any meal I felt like it or a couple pieces of fruit, also whenever, I’d pick the fruit. What I meant was that outside of working out and bulking, potatoes don’t make sense to me as a superior carb source to beans, other starchy veggies, and fruit.
How much are you supposed to specify on here? It seems like the majority of argument is resulting from exceptions to the rule based on goals and timing windows.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
It seems like the majority of argument is resulting from exceptions to the rule based on goals and timing windows.
[/quote]
Exceptions to the rule based on goals? What the hell are you talking about??
How many times shall I repeat that the context of this thread is about performance/physique enhancement.
If you want to give eating advice to the general sedentary population, then go for it. That would be an utter waste of time here.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
MODOK
Pharm.D./Ph.D. Pharmacology[/quote]
Damn, I need to get a fancy title like that! LMAO
I read posts by Modok, and then I realize, “fuck…I have soooo much to learn.” It’s awesome!
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]Mateus wrote:
[quote]Brotha123 wrote:
Hey guys what are your takes on fruit? Is it okay to eat or not…i train mma 4-5 days aweek and lift weight wendlers 5/3/1 4days a week…just confused about them and fructose [/quote]
This train wreck has spiraled away from the original question. Dude, go ahead and eat the fruit. It has its benefits and as long as you are not eating a ton of it you will be fine. Small amounts of fructose from fruit sources along with other smart carb sources will help with glycogen stores. [/quote]
I agree.
I eat a piece of fruit almost everyday. I would not recommend that to someone looking to drop bodyfat. Cutting fruit may be a very easy way to tighten up a diet and the lost micro nutrients and phytochemicals can be made up for with vegetables.
edited[/quote]
I would definitely recommend it to someone looking to drop bodyfat. While rawvegan and 30 bananas a day are definitely not the best diet for humans, they definitely help you drop bodyfat. You cannot get fat by just eating fruit, I have seen it time and time again.
I know you think fructose is fructose, but it’s not. Fructose in fruit is combined with other things that help the body absorb it and use it better. When it is extracted and used alone ofcourse it is bad. All foods have things in them that when extracted alone are terrible for you and even poisonous.
Fruit is great, for anyone, especially those trying to lose weight. Rice, potatoes, wheat/grains, processed foods and sugar are the things to avoid.
and why should I avoid rice and potatoes?
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
and why should I avoid rice and potatoes?[/quote]
because man, last time I ate rice or potatoes I got soo fat. I swear.
[quote]Einzakin wrote:
Fructose in fruit is combined with other things that help the body absorb it and use it better. When it is extracted and used alone ofcourse it is bad. All foods have things in them that when extracted alone are terrible for you and even poisonous. [/quote]
I don’t agree with the entire post, but I do agree with the above.
People seem to be unable to understand that the context under whch you eat somethng is as important as what you eat. Getting fructose from eating fruit is different than getting fructose in the form of sugar in every meal.
Avoiding fruit because sugar is unhealthy is like avoiding poppy seeds because opium is made from them.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]Einzakin wrote:
Fructose in fruit is combined with other things that help the body absorb it and use it better. When it is extracted and used alone ofcourse it is bad. All foods have things in them that when extracted alone are terrible for you and even poisonous. [/quote]
I don’t agree with the entire post, but I do agree with the above.
People seem to be unable to understand that the context under whch you eat somethng is as important as what you eat. Getting fructose from eating fruit is different than getting fructose in the form of sugar in every meal.
Avoiding fruit because sugar is unhealthy is like avoiding poppy seeds because opium is made from them. [/quote]
No one said sugar is unhealthy. You may have the worst debate skills Ive come across on this site. Please follow the discussion and avoid the need to resort to strawman arugments to make a point.
[quote]Einzakin wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]Mateus wrote:
[quote]Brotha123 wrote:
Hey guys what are your takes on fruit? Is it okay to eat or not…i train mma 4-5 days aweek and lift weight wendlers 5/3/1 4days a week…just confused about them and fructose [/quote]
This train wreck has spiraled away from the original question. Dude, go ahead and eat the fruit. It has its benefits and as long as you are not eating a ton of it you will be fine. Small amounts of fructose from fruit sources along with other smart carb sources will help with glycogen stores. [/quote]
I agree.
I eat a piece of fruit almost everyday. I would not recommend that to someone looking to drop bodyfat. Cutting fruit may be a very easy way to tighten up a diet and the lost micro nutrients and phytochemicals can be made up for with vegetables.
edited[/quote]
I would definitely recommend it to someone looking to drop bodyfat. While rawvegan and 30 bananas a day are definitely not the best diet for humans, they definitely help you drop bodyfat. You cannot get fat by just eating fruit, I have seen it time and time again.
I know you think fructose is fructose, but it’s not. Fructose in fruit is combined with other things that help the body absorb it and use it better. When it is extracted and used alone ofcourse it is bad. All foods have things in them that when extracted alone are terrible for you and even poisonous.
Fruit is great, for anyone, especially those trying to lose weight. Rice, potatoes, wheat/grains, processed foods and sugar are the things to avoid.
[/quote]
April fools was 3 days ago.