[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< are you suggesting that it, Romans 9, informs the rest of the Bible? >>>[/quote]No. I’m proclaiming that the 9th of Romans is but one of numerous descriptions of the one true and living God who informs absolutely EVERYTHING including the entirety of Holy Scripture. I will say if Romans 9 was all we had the principle would stand. It is not possible to portray anything clearer in human language. To paraphrase in a nuthshell: I, God will choose who I will love, who I will hate, who I will save, who I will condemn, who I bless and who I will curse CUZ I"M GOD AND YOU AIN’T. Paul even goes so far as to anticipate the universal objection: “you will say to me then, why does He still find fault for who resists His will?” Paul answers with “who are you oh man who answers back to God? Does not the potter have the right over the clay to make from the SAME LUMP one vessel for this and another for that?”.
Don’t ya see? You are saying that very thing: “Hey now wait a minute here, how on earth can God hold men accountable when they’re only doing what He planned for them?”. Paul (wisely) doesn’t even venture a guess at how that works. He simply says “shaddup, He’s God and you ain’t” again to paraphrase. That only even requires interpretation at all by those attempting to escape it’s unavoidable message.
[quote]Cortes wrote:You are going to have to explain to me why Romans 9 appears to negate a whole slough of other passages that pretty unambiguously assume human self-determination and ultimate accountability for one’s actions. I’m not seeing it. [/quote]There are NUMEROUS other passages, even simple declarations in proverbs, that clearly state that God almighty is in ultimate control of all that transpires in time in history. 16:33 for instance (short on time here) “The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD” Casting lots in the ancient world was the rough equivalent of rolling dice. Even when men go out of their way to DESIGN a chance occurrence “it’s every decision is from the Lord”. Tons more. I’ll address this more fully later tonight I hope, but it is actually syllogistic in a way. "Here’s what God says about Himself. Here’s what God says about man. What God says about man is informed and governed by what what God says about Himself. What God says about Himself in His relations with finite man are also informed and governed by His infinite nature. The only alternative is to make man the governor of God which has been and is routinely done throughout history because man is sinful, self centered and prideful.
The Westminster Assembly (1642-46) which consisted of dozens and dozens of God fearing reverent men took 4 years to agree on language for their confession and catechisms though that won’t impress Catholics. But anyway they REALLY got it right, simply stating what the whole of scripture reports though it is clearly beyond human comprehension.
Of God’s eternal Decree: Section 1
“1. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”
The Westminster standards also actually has a section titled “Free Will” which begins with:
“1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil.”
God is utterly sovereign and man is for his sin and evil utterly responsible. I have no idea how that works and am quite certain that if I did we wouldn’t be talking about God because any God who can fit between my ears is no God at all. [/quote]
Clearly, if dozens of god fearing men spent a whole 4 years figuring out the answers to the most elusive questions of the universe, we are justified in concluding their answers MUST be true.