Free Weights vs. Machines

Training Bodybuilding
81

[quote]Dedicated wrote:
scottiscool wrote:
Dedicated,

Let’s see if we can clarify some things. This was posted in the bodybuilding section so when I’m talking about strenth I’m referring to strength gains as a function of getting bigger. Not necessarily powerlifting strength where strength is the means AND the end.

Do you feel there would be any difference in size gains from someone spending their time say incline benching in the smith or with free weights? I’m thinking if we can make it a little more clear what each person is talking about the discussion won’t get sidetracked too much haha.

I feel size and strength gains will be greater in someone who’s primary benching whether it be flat, incline, or decline, is with free weights vs a smith. If something requires more muscles (the main muscle and stabilizers both) it’s going to stimulate more in terms of gains. I’m not saying someone exclusively using the smith isn’t going to have gains, rather free weights are going to be superior in this case in stimulating gains.

Also, after you have blasted the movement with free weights, I do agree that hitting it on the smith where the smith is taking over for your exhausted stabilizers will allow you to further exhaust the pecs yielding bigger gains as you can also do with cables.

So, first using the harder free then the smith or cables is ideal. But, if one in a hypothetical situation had to choose one, I would (obviously) pick free weights over the smith. In my view their superior for stimulating gains period, both in size and strength.

D[/quote]

But, if your assertion about being able to use more weight on the Smith than on the free weight bench were true, then wouldn’t using the Smith to really work on the amount of weight being used (at least for periods of time) possibly lead to equal gains in strength and likewise size?

For instance let’s say someone can bench 300 lbs for reps with free weights and they can bench 350 lbs on the Smith (just arbitrary numbers mind you). Sure, the 300 lb free weight bench would certainly overload their stabilizer muscles better, but the 350 lb Smith bench might actually overload their prime movers better.

Agree or disagree?

Good training,

Sentoguy

82

[quote]
But, if your assertion about being able to use more weight on the Smith than on the free weight bench were true, then wouldn’t using the Smith to really work on the amount of weight being used (at least for periods of time) possibly lead to equal gains in strength and likewise size?

For instance let’s say someone can bench 300 lbs for reps with free weights and they can bench 350 lbs on the Smith (just arbitrary numbers mind you). Sure, the 300 lb free weight bench would certainly overload their stabilizer muscles better, but the 350 lb Smith bench might actually overload their prime movers better.

Agree or disagree?

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

I guess it would like having your spotter assist you with pushing up 350 by giving you help. That’s my whole point it is offering assistance, and whether your assistance is coming from a machine or your spotter, it can help you bust through a plateau.

So, it has a use, but in terms of which one is superior in stimulating gains, I still say free for me. If you had to pick one to use exclusively which would you choose?

D

83

[quote]Dedicated wrote:

But, if your assertion about being able to use more weight on the Smith than on the free weight bench were true, then wouldn’t using the Smith to really work on the amount of weight being used (at least for periods of time) possibly lead to equal gains in strength and likewise size?

For instance let’s say someone can bench 300 lbs for reps with free weights and they can bench 350 lbs on the Smith (just arbitrary numbers mind you). Sure, the 300 lb free weight bench would certainly overload their stabilizer muscles better, but the 350 lb Smith bench might actually overload their prime movers better.

Agree or disagree?

Good training,

Sentoguy

I guess it would like having your spotter assist you with pushing up 350 by giving you help. That’s my whole point it is offering assistance, and whether your assistance is coming from a machine or your spotter, it can help you bust through a plateau.

So, it has a use, but in terms of which one is superior in stimulating gains, I still say free for me. If you had to pick one to use exclusively which would you choose?

D
[/quote]

It kind of would depend on the situation, how I was training at the time and what my goals were.

Right now I’d also choose free weights. Not because I think they’re necessarily superior though. Simply because I just tend to like the groove of free weight benching more and feel like it’s a more natural motion as far as MY body is concerned. And because I have people available to spot me.

That being said I use both free weights and machines currently in my program. I’m really not concerned with what the exercise is called or what equipment it entails, but rather only that it produces results. I’ve found that for me personally, both machines and free weights produce increases in size and strength.

Good training,

Sentoguy

84

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
It kind of would depend on the situation, how I was training at the time and what my goals were.

Right now I’d also choose free weights. Not because I think they’re necessarily superior though. Simply because I just tend to like the groove of free weight benching more and feel like it’s a more natural motion as far as MY body is concerned. And because I have people available to spot me.

That being said I use both free weights and machines currently in my program. I’m really not concerned with what the exercise is called or what equipment it entails, but rather only that it produces results. I’ve found that for me personally, both machines and free weights produce increases in size and strength.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

Yes, I agree and I think I’ve alluded to that (a mixture of both being best) a few times in this thread.

Good training to you as well,

D

85

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

That’s quite an extreme example, and I’ve actually seen quite a few people press about the same amount of weight with free weights as on Smith (taking the lack of weight of the Smith bar into account) for about the same number of reps. Once again, I’d say that they’re about equal in terms of building strength, but the free weight bench is superior in terms of building balance, stabilizer strength, and coordination.

Using a comparison between squats and leg extensions isn’t a good comparison. Those two exercises are completely different, and honestly anyone who argued that they were equal for strength building obviously has never done them both.

Maybe something like machine hack squats vs. front squats might be a more appropriate comparison.

[/quote]

I find it hard to believe that you’ve seen people bench the same on a smith and a free weight bench press if they’ve been only using the smith machine. Maybe if they switch them back and forth from time to time, but we’ve all seen someone who is benching for the first time listing like the Titanic. Maybe it’s those smaller “stablilizer” muscles, but rep for rep the same weight? Just one day giving up the smith and making a smooth transition?

It’s hard to say if they ultimately build the same amount of absolute strength. Guys who go for world records at a bodyweight generally do so with the flat bench. Never heard of the Powerlifting Smith Machine meet.

I do think if you are talking about building muscle, not just strength, then the gap closes. I’ve seen plenty of huge guys using nothing but the leg press when squats and milk seems to be the mantra.

About the quote, I used the squat/leg extension as just an example…I believe the guy was talking about isolated machines in general and free weights in general. Trust me whoever I misquoted was someone respected in the industry, even if I didn’t always agree with him. I want to say it was King or perhaps Poliquin, although I can’t seem to put a name with the quote. Anyway I most likely butchered the analogy.

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[quote]medevac wrote:

It’s hard to say if they ultimately build the same amount of absolute strength. Guys who go for world records at a bodyweight generally do so with the flat bench. Never heard of the Powerlifting Smith Machine meet.

[/quote]

This is the problem with this discussion, as soon as someone says strength immediately it gets brought to powerlifting. Someone who trained on a smith for a powerlifting meet would be beyond stupid. Strength should be looked at in relation to the movement.

And since we are talking about using machines/free weights for the purpose of bodybuilding(however you choose to define that) powerlifting the sport should not be brought into the picture. Had this been posted in the strength sports section it would be an entirely different conversation.

If we use something entirely different besides a flat bench press in terms of strength, be it a medicine ball throw for distance or something nuetral then it would get interesting as to who would develop better strength in that discipline if neither practiced it.

87

[quote]scottiscool wrote:
medevac wrote:

This is the problem with this discussion, as soon as someone says strength immediately it gets brought to powerlifting. Someone who trained on a smith for a powerlifting meet would be beyond stupid. Strength should be looked at in relation to the movement.
[/quote]

If you are looking at it in “relation to movement”, the smith machine press and the bench press are exactly the same motion. I would also bet on the “free weight” guy being better at any motion drawn out of a hat than a machine only guy (such as the medicine ball throw), because he is used to moving a weight unencumbered through space (admitting the bench press uses the bench itself as an apparatus but you get my point). I just think he’d be better prepared for it of the two.

And, he’d be better prepared for a test of strength using the machine-guys own equipment, hands down. Someone who deadlifts is going to crush the guy who uses that silly back extension machine on that exact motion on that exact machine, his “move”.

BUT, you got me that BBing and strength are separate, I was using an improper anecdote that free weight = more strength = muscle hypertrophy, with is not always true. I’m arguing strength not size.

Like I wrote before, I am NOT anti smith machine or anti machines in general. I’ve just gotten better results and it feels more natural to me using free weights most of the time.

88

[quote]medevac wrote:

I find it hard to believe that you’ve seen people bench the same on a smith and a free weight bench press if they’ve been only using the smith machine. Maybe if they switch them back and forth from time to time, but we’ve all seen someone who is benching for the first time listing like the Titanic. Maybe it’s those smaller “stablilizer” muscles, but rep for rep the same weight? Just one day giving up the smith and making a smooth transition?

It’s hard to say if they ultimately build the same amount of absolute strength. Guys who go for world records at a bodyweight generally do so with the flat bench. Never heard of the Powerlifting Smith Machine meet.

I do think if you are talking about building muscle, not just strength, then the gap closes. I’ve seen plenty of huge guys using nothing but the leg press when squats and milk seems to be the mantra.

About the quote, I used the squat/leg extension as just an example…I believe the guy was talking about isolated machines in general and free weights in general. Trust me whoever I misquoted was someone respected in the industry, even if I didn’t always agree with him. I want to say it was King or perhaps Poliquin, although I can’t seem to put a name with the quote. Anyway I most likely butchered the analogy.
[/quote]

Hi Medevac,

Okay, first I should’ve noted that the guys who press around the same weight with both the free weights and smith routinely do both. I don’t see many people who do only one of the other and then test themselves on the one they don’t do.

My point was simply that they weren’t significantly stronger on the Smith machine than on the free weights.

Sorry to get on you about the quote, I didn’t realize that it wasn’t you who was saying that. I apologize for my not reading more carefully. I also wasn’t trying to suggest that you thought that the leg extension was equal to the squat in terms of building strength. Just that it’s a pretty extreme example and I doubt that most people would argue that they’re even remotely equal.

About the free weights vs. machines in terms of building strength debate. I’m not arguing that free weights are great for building strength, nor would I tell anyone not to do them if that’s their goal. But, I think that a lot of people are writing off machines too quickly.

You brought up the leg press. From what I understand a lot of olympic speed skaters actually prefer the leg press for building strength to squats. And, I’d have to say that speed skaters not only have some impressive legs, but are pretty damn powerful as well.

I brought up Arthur Jones and the success that he had training the Miami Dolphins (as well as athletes like Dan Gable, Dick Butkiss, Sergio, Viator, etc…) in terms of both muscle and performance.

Now am I saying that machines are superior? No. But judging from just those examples I’d have to say that they’re at least decently effective.

Good training,

Sentoguy

89

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

Hi Medevac,

Okay, first I should’ve noted that the guys who press around the same weight with both the free weights and smith routinely do both. I don’t see many people who do only one of the other and then test themselves on the one they don’t do.

My point was simply that they weren’t significantly stronger on the Smith machine than on the free weights.

Sorry to get on you about the quote, I didn’t realize that it wasn’t you who was saying that. I apologize for my not reading more carefully. I also wasn’t trying to suggest that you thought that the leg extension was equal to the squat in terms of building strength. Just that it’s a pretty extreme example and I doubt that most people would argue that they’re even remotely equal.

About the free weights vs. machines in terms of building strength debate. I’m not arguing that free weights are great for building strength, nor would I tell anyone not to do them if that’s their goal. But, I think that a lot of people are writing off machines too quickly.

You brought up the leg press. From what I understand a lot of olympic speed skaters actually prefer the leg press for building strength to squats. And, I’d have to say that speed skaters not only have some impressive legs, but are pretty damn powerful as well.

I brought up Arthur Jones and the success that he had training the Miami Dolphins (as well as athletes like Dan Gable, Dick Butkiss, Sergio, Viator, etc…) in terms of both muscle and performance.

Now am I saying that machines are superior? No. But judging from just those examples I’d have to say that they’re at least decently effective.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]
Oh, ok. I was envisioning a guy walking up to the bench press to try it out and doing the same as the smith machine. Also, if someone did the regular press for years, then went on the smith for a while, I bet you would see that his press didn’t degrade all that much and he would be back to his old press weight soon.

I agree that machines have a place and I use them. Someone else also pointed out that I was talking about strength vs hypertrophy which isn’t actually what the OP was aiming for, I wandered off a bit, sorry.

I love those old pics of young Viator during the Colorado experiment. That bicep shot of him and the one next to Sergio are my favs.

90

What about the old gymnast strength comparison. Wasn’t it a Poliquin stat(so maybe its not entirely accurate).

When 170lbs elite gymnasts were introduced to the bench press for the first time they could on average lift 270lbs for a rep…something like that, does anyone have the numbers?

91

[quote]medevac wrote:
If you are looking at it in “relation to movement”, the smith machine press and the bench press are exactly the same motion.[/quote]

In a BB bench, the bar doesn’t move straight up or down, but it curves a little.

92

[quote]undeadlift wrote:
medevac wrote:
If you are looking at it in “relation to movement”, the smith machine press and the bench press are exactly the same motion.

In a BB bench, the bar doesn’t move straight up or down, but it curves a little.[/quote]

If you are benching correctly it should be a straight line. It should also hit the same place on your chest every time, which is directly below where you hold it for lockout. Obviously it may be impossible to get an exact straight line (maybe off by mm), but it should be straight enough that it looks straight to the naked eye.

Also, most smith machines are slightly angled.

93

[quote]k1t0r5 wrote:
undeadlift wrote:
medevac wrote:
If you are looking at it in “relation to movement”, the smith machine press and the bench press are exactly the same motion.

In a BB bench, the bar doesn’t move straight up or down, but it curves a little.

If you are benching correctly it should be a straight line. It should also hit the same place on your chest every time, which is directly below where you hold it for lockout. Obviously it may be impossible to get an exact straight line (maybe off by mm), but it should be straight enough that it looks straight to the naked eye.

Also, most smith machines are slightly angled.[/quote]

In a powerlifting bench press (with elbows tucked instead of flared) you’re supposed to move the bar from down below the nips (where you touch) to nearly above your face at the top of the movement (at least according to Tate, Wendler et al). My own movement isn’t quite that extreme, but I definately move the bar through more than one plane while benching.

94

[quote]Andrew Dixon wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
scottiscool wrote:

I don’t use gloves, wraps or a belt. I train barefoot, even on leg day, but use a pad for squats because it’s more comfortable. Here’s another confession. I own a bosu ball and have found that when my shoulders are acting up it is great for doing presses on. It supports the back of the girdle and allows me to work better.

I’ve never really used the half ball. I like doing presses on the ball, but you have the added risk of ball explosion and smashed arms. Do you raise the BOSU on a bench of floor press it?

If you go heavy on the BOSU do you adduct you shoulder blades for the entire ROM?[/quote]

I use it on the floor and I keep my shoulders back and down like for a regular press. I only use it occasionally when my not a kid anymore shoulders are giving me trouble and not with real heavy weight. I’ve read the horror stories of guys breaking their arms when they burst though that usually happens in a commercial gym where you don’t have control over the maintenance of the ball. Could you imagine a ball failing while raised on a bench with heavy dumbbells? That would be quite horrific with potentially crippling effects.

95

[quote]lurker26 wrote:
k1t0r5 wrote:
undeadlift wrote:
medevac wrote:
If you are looking at it in “relation to movement”, the smith machine press and the bench press are exactly the same motion.

In a BB bench, the bar doesn’t move straight up or down, but it curves a little.

If you are benching correctly it should be a straight line. It should also hit the same place on your chest every time, which is directly below where you hold it for lockout. Obviously it may be impossible to get an exact straight line (maybe off by mm), but it should be straight enough that it looks straight to the naked eye.

Also, most smith machines are slightly angled.

In a powerlifting bench press (with elbows tucked instead of flared) you’re supposed to move the bar from down below the nips (where you touch) to nearly above your face at the top of the movement (at least according to Tate, Wendler et al). My own movement isn’t quite that extreme, but I definately move the bar through more than one plane while benching.[/quote]

Yeah I think many guys are moving to this kind of bench, touching low with a tuck and pushing back towards their face and flaring about 3/4 of the way up to “catch” the bar, kind of like dropping under a clean or snatch. Anyone who wants to bench more would do well to pick up a copy of Elitefts’ Bench Press Index DVD where this technique is demonstrated and explained very well.

Not sure this has a lot of relevance for the bodybuilders here, but if you want to learn how to press big weights check it out.

96

[quote]Ramo wrote:

Yeah I think many guys are moving to this kind of bench, touching low with a tuck and pushing back towards their face and flaring about 3/4 of the way up to “catch” the bar, kind of like dropping under a clean or snatch. Anyone who wants to bench more would do well to pick up a copy of Elitefts’ Bench Press Index DVD where this technique is demonstrated and explained very well.

Not sure this has a lot of relevance for the bodybuilders here, but if you want to learn how to press big weights check it out.[/quote]

I’ll second that. I bought it even though I thought I knew the bench press. It helped me a lot with my form.