I injured my upper back right under my neck. It was minor and only lasted a few days, but it could have been worse. See attached link for the machine I use. I wasn’t warmed up enough and driving my head back against the pad caused me a mild injury. Now when I do it, I try to keep my head forward so the back is flat. I prefer the machine over barbell pullovers any day.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CKUTcBmF8-r/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Thanks everybody for the input!
Tried db pullovers yesterday! Position as described in “the new HIT”, higher back resting on a bench, straight legs w locked hamstrings. Tried 38,5 lbs db which felt light, but did a proper job (I could “feel” it!). Worked both chest and lats - a good combination it seems. No problem in the top position overhead, which kind of surprised me (based on many a caution here). Best of all - Worked perfectly with 30-10-30!
It’s no question the Nautilus pullover is best, but the dumbbell version felt better than ok. One advantage with db pullover is a shorter range of movement, which better allows for 30-10-30.
Will continue using db pullover, along w other chest and back movements, go heavier - and see what happens!
I can see how that could happen. I wonder if that’s how Hutchins hurt his neck? Something to think about, thanks !
Scott
Why couldn’t you segment the Nautilus Pullover into two arcs for 30-10-30? Do the initial 90 degrees for one set; and the final 90 degrees for another set.
After thinking about this more, I have a vague recollection that one of his concerns was getting the shoulder joint properly aligned with the pivot point on the machine. As I recall the discussion, it was something about the shoulder being a hyper-mobile joint, and not actually producing rotation around a well defined or fixed point. That makes it difficult to design a mechanism that actually follows the movement of the joint. I think similar difficulties can arise with the leg extension. Or maybe I’m confusing the two? I did some searching via google, to see if I could come up with a reference. But I came up empty.
I’m pretty sure Bill DeSimone’s concern mostly relates to loading the shoulder joint too heavily in a stretched position that is at the extreme end of the normal range of motion. Generically, that seems to drive a lot of his advice. When it comes to shoulders, he seems to like to avoid putting load on the shoulder joint capsule when it is stretched (as in a pullover, or bench press).
It does make sense to me that people might injure their neck or upper back with a pullover. When you drive into the pads with your elbows in the overhead position, you tend to brace your back against the seat. If you also braced you head against the seat back, to get a better push through the elbows, that might cause some people neck problems.
Thanks for thinking about this ! I couldn’t find a Hutchins site that wasn’t Renex and they are all old. I don’t know if he’s even connected to Renex anymore? I tried contacting Josh Trentine at the IFBB as well but no luck.
You seem to have a very good head on your shoulders, perhaps you cold look at some of Ron Williams stuff on YouTube. He talks quite a bit about exercises to avoid that could cause shoulder problems like dips and overhead presses etc and it seems like good advice? He doesn’t mention pullover though. I’ve been back at working out consistently since this pandemic kicked us home and I’d really feel stupid to find that some of the exercises I’m using like BNTA, pullover and presses are causing as much joint damage as they are at building muscle.
Scott
For the pullovers, I stand up and arch my back to remove some of the stretch from my shoulders when starting and finishing.
You are correct with the dips. I used to start my routine with 100 dips several times a week. After a month of that, my shoulders hurt to the point I was limited and the pain lasted many months. So now I do the seated dip, or I limit dips to 3 sets of 10 every other week.
His new site (and business name) is Serious Exercise. Web site of the same name. I tried to post a link before, but it got stripped out.
I will take a look at the Ron Williams stuff.
However, it is probably the case that whether or not an exercise bothers you is highly individual, and a lot depends on shoulder anatomy, both what you were born with, and changes that develop as the result of wear and tear, injures, bad training habits, etc.
When it comes to shoulder issues with weight liftting, it seems like there are 2 common points of concern.
Exercises that drive your elbows behind your shoulders and head, to the end of its range of motion. If heavily loaded in that position, that kind of stretch can impose stresses on connective tissue that cause injuries. So this would be things like dips, wide grip bench press, and the stretch position of a dumbbell or machine pullover. It is the combination of too much load plus the stretch that is the concern. I think Bill DeSimone’s bicep tear came from this - too much stretching and load during wide grip bench presses frayed the tendon.
Overhead movements that pinch the rotator cuff between the upper arm bone, and a structure on the shoulder blade called the acromion. Again, this is likely to be highly individual as to whether or not a particular movement causes you problems.
Of course, there are lots of other bad stuff that can also happen (labrum tears, other kinds of rotator cuff tears, arthritis, tissue damage from impact injuries and dislocations). It isn’t a particularly stable joint structure.
I hurt my rotator cuff 5 years ago. Settled down quickly into a niggle that wouldn’t heal. Saw a well-respected specialist, went for an MRI - wasn’t bad enough to warrant an op. Fast forward: Swiss bar - one of the best investments I have made as I will never be able to bench normally again. Landmine and viking press handle - while I can do a barbell military press, this is such a great piece of kit for so many other reasons. But, fundamentally, a real shoulder saver.
Strangely, dips are no problem for me and my main chest developer. The wider Gironda dips were a real revelation for me when even flat DB presses were annoying my shoulder. Strange but true.
My penny’s-worth of thoughts:
So 007 I assume you hurt your rotor cuff doing benches?
Scott
Actually, it was an overuse injury from punching heavy bags, dips on rings and martial arts stuff. One night I was doing shadow boxing and it just went. Never for a moment did I think it would turn out to be chronic but here we are. 
Moved here from " New E-Book: Extreme HIT 30-10-30" at the suggestion of average_al. Originally in response to a post by entsminger. The subject in question which may or may not be what Scott was asking about, is the range of motion for the pullover and other lat moves, and how to avoid stressing the shoulders and traps in these movements.
I used to have a video link that showed what you may be looking for, but unfortunately I saved the embedded vimeo link only to find out now it has privacy settings that only allow the video to be watched from the website itself which I did not save.
Doing the test shown in the video on myself, I found the safe range is from the forearm parallel to the torso at the contracted end, to forearm perpendicular to the torso at the stretched end of the range. This is the range where the lats are most activated, and the shoulder and traps least activated. The point to look for on both ends is the point where your shoulder moves out of position even the slightest bit, which can differ person to person. On the contracted end, going beyond this range brings the lower traps into play. Since this is what causes me the most pain this is what I remember best. Going beyond the safe limit on the stretched end brings other shoulder risks into play. The following page has many links to reference studies on this subject.
Photo from research removed for the squeamish.
I found by taking my elbows off the pads and use the pullover like I would on an xforce pullover(no pads) that it reduces stress on the shoulders…not saying it would be this way for everyone, but it works for me
Very interesting. I am going to try my pullover bar without pads to begin with as that is much simpler and looks like the pullover could work great without the pads:
Oh my god , I’ve seen that video before and I guess it didn’t register that there were no elbow pads! That’s interesting because I find when I try and pull too much with my hands I feel it less on my lats? I’m going to have to try not using the pads on the pullover my next workout and see how that feels , if it’s even possible?
Scott
I couldn’t wait , I just went out and put my hands close together like on the XForce video and tried some reps without using my arms on the pads and it worked! All these years pushing with my arms on the pads and I never thought of trying that. At the moment I’m not sure which works better, at least for putting less stress on the shoulder socket!! Thanks!!
Scott
Sounds interesting…its definitely worth a try…I would think I would use a lot less weight using hands instead of the elbows…I won’t train lats until Saturday but looking forward to it
This also ties in nicely with fitafter40’s suggestion that avoiding pullover pads allows more freedom for natural shoulder movement. Swiss bar in particular looks very interesting to me. What Swiss bar model do you use? I notice some have several angles for benching and wonder which you find works best.
I train at my friend’s garage gym and he has barbell and power block dumbbels
I can’t hold the powerblocks one at a time like a traditional dumbbell, plus they only go up to 50lbs each. I do my pullovers with dumbbells each hand at 30lbs each.
I tried a standard barbell in the past but felt weird - a commercial gym fixed barbell feels soooo much better. Not sure if I do these right, but I keep a big arch like I’m benching and then do my thing.