Forcing Catholics to Support Birth Control?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Don’t want to rain on the Romney parade but…

“As it now turns out, back in 2005 when Mitt Romney was governor of Massachusetts, he forced religious institutions including Catholic hospitals to dispense the so-called ‘morning after pill.’”

http://markamerica.com/2012/02/07/what-obama-did-to-the-catholics-romney-did-it-too/[/quote]

Not a fan… It doesn’t matter anyway. The obama administration is feeling the pressure. Now they are talking about ways to meet the church in the middle some how. It’s called “Retreat!”.

Hopefully he will have done enough damage by then that it will be irreparable.
I don’t know why the media is softballing this. Part of the issue is it also forces these institutions to provide plans that cover abortions services. They keep eliminating that little fact. I guess to make us look weird and backwards. God forbid Catholics get a fair shake in the media.

142

[quote]pat wrote:
I don’t know why the media is softballing this. Part of the issue is it also forces these institutions to provide plans that cover abortions services. They keep eliminating that little fact. I guess to make us look weird and backwards. God forbid Catholics get a fair shake in the media.[/quote]

The majority of Catholics polled favor the requirement. When only Catholic women are polled the number is over 85%. About the same % with both genders under 30. These include the very people working at the Catholic institutions. They should be careful when they instruct people to vote their conscience, it may not work out like they are thinking. It appears to me that the Church lost the birth control battle many years ago, and although I’m not a ‘if you can’t beat them, join them’ type, I believe the time and effort would better spent convincing the current ‘flock’ to comply with the dogma. Rebellion within the Church seems to be the central issue. I realize there are Catholics and Practicing Catholics. I have never seen % based numbers that split the total body, but would find it interesting. Based on my personal experience I suspect the ratio to be below 5% Practicing Catholics.

143

Mark Twain’s statement about statistics and lies comes to mind.

“Don?t Trust ?Pro-Contraceptive? Poll”

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/02/08/catholic-pro-contraceptive-poll/

144

[quote]Menthol wrote:
Mark Twain’s statement about statistics and lies comes to mind.

“Don?t Trust ?Pro-Contraceptive? Poll”

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/02/08/catholic-pro-contraceptive-poll/[/quote]

True…however, my personal discussions would confirm the numbers.

145

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
I don’t know why the media is softballing this. Part of the issue is it also forces these institutions to provide plans that cover abortions services. They keep eliminating that little fact. I guess to make us look weird and backwards. God forbid Catholics get a fair shake in the media.[/quote]

The majority of Catholics polled favor the requirement. When only Catholic women are polled the number is over 85%. About the same % with both genders under 30. These include the very people working at the Catholic institutions. They should be careful when they instruct people to vote their conscience, it may not work out like they are thinking. It appears to me that the Church lost the birth control battle many years ago, and although I’m not a ‘if you can’t beat them, join them’ type, I believe the time and effort would better spent convincing the current ‘flock’ to comply with the dogma. Rebellion within the Church seems to be the central issue. I realize there are Catholics and Practicing Catholics. I have never seen % based numbers that split the total body, but would find it interesting. Based on my personal experience I suspect the ratio to be below 5% Practicing Catholics.

[/quote]

Birth control is not a dogma of the church and there is no problem with rebellion, it’s a facade made up by the media. It’s a teaching of the church not a dogma, there’s a huge difference between the two.
Second, it doesn’t matter one iota who agrees and does not agree. The church is not a democracy, it’s a teaching of the church and they will not relent, period. People are free to do it on their own dime, but the church cannot be obligated to pay for something they stand against. They flat won’t do it, they’ll drop coverage and pay the fine before they will pay for birth control, abortificants or abortion services.

Obama cannot strong arm the church. It doesn’t answer to him and they don’t give a flying fuck what he thinks. They won’t do it, period. Liking it is not a requirement.

Third, while people may be all for BC, they are firmly against the government trying to tell them or their church what to do. It’s a huge issue and it’s really more to do with the abortificants and abortion services than BC. That I can assure you. BC is one thing, but 100% of Catholics are against abortion.
I say 100% because those who claim to be pro-abortion and catholic are in a state excommunication. “Thou shalt not murder” is a church dogma, BC is not.

147

How much money would the church save by dropping just the birth control portion of the insurance? Or are they just wanting to pay the standard rate with their exclusion of birth control because of their beliefs? I’m only asking since you mentioned the church should not be obligated to pay.

148

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
I don’t know why the media is softballing this. Part of the issue is it also forces these institutions to provide plans that cover abortions services. They keep eliminating that little fact. I guess to make us look weird and backwards. God forbid Catholics get a fair shake in the media.[/quote]

The majority of Catholics polled favor the requirement. When only Catholic women are polled the number is over 85%. About the same % with both genders under 30. These include the very people working at the Catholic institutions. They should be careful when they instruct people to vote their conscience, it may not work out like they are thinking. It appears to me that the Church lost the birth control battle many years ago, and although I’m not a ‘if you can’t beat them, join them’ type, I believe the time and effort would better spent convincing the current ‘flock’ to comply with the dogma. Rebellion within the Church seems to be the central issue. I realize there are Catholics and Practicing Catholics. I have never seen % based numbers that split the total body, but would find it interesting. Based on my personal experience I suspect the ratio to be below 5% Practicing Catholics.

[/quote]

Birth control is not a dogma of the church and there is no problem with rebellion, it’s a facade made up by the media. It’s a teaching of the church not a dogma, there’s a huge difference between the two.
Second, it doesn’t matter one iota who agrees and does not agree. The church is not a democracy, it’s a teaching of the church and they will not relent, period. People are free to do it on their own dime, but the church cannot be obligated to pay for something they stand against. They flat won’t do it, they’ll drop coverage and pay the fine before they will pay for birth control, abortificants or abortion services.

Obama cannot strong arm the church. It doesn’t answer to him and they don’t give a flying fuck what he thinks. They won’t do it, period. Liking it is not a requirement.

Third, while people may be all for BC, they are firmly against the government trying to tell them or their church what to do. It’s a huge issue and it’s really more to do with the abortificants and abortion services than BC. That I can assure you. BC is one thing, but 100% of Catholics are against abortion.
I say 100% because those who claim to be pro-abortion and catholic are in a state excommunication. “Thou shalt not murder” is a church dogma, BC is not.[/quote]

Thank you clarifying the difference between teachings and dogma.
I’m all about freedom to associate, but am not as certain as you are about the outcome here.

149

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
I don’t know why the media is softballing this. Part of the issue is it also forces these institutions to provide plans that cover abortions services. They keep eliminating that little fact. I guess to make us look weird and backwards. God forbid Catholics get a fair shake in the media.[/quote]

The majority of Catholics polled favor the requirement. When only Catholic women are polled the number is over 85%. About the same % with both genders under 30. These include the very people working at the Catholic institutions. They should be careful when they instruct people to vote their conscience, it may not work out like they are thinking. It appears to me that the Church lost the birth control battle many years ago, and although I’m not a ‘if you can’t beat them, join them’ type, I believe the time and effort would better spent convincing the current ‘flock’ to comply with the dogma. Rebellion within the Church seems to be the central issue. I realize there are Catholics and Practicing Catholics. I have never seen % based numbers that split the total body, but would find it interesting. Based on my personal experience I suspect the ratio to be below 5% Practicing Catholics.

[/quote]
Not at all relevant.

150

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
I don’t know why the media is softballing this. Part of the issue is it also forces these institutions to provide plans that cover abortions services. They keep eliminating that little fact. I guess to make us look weird and backwards. God forbid Catholics get a fair shake in the media.[/quote]

The majority of Catholics polled favor the requirement. When only Catholic women are polled the number is over 85%. About the same % with both genders under 30. These include the very people working at the Catholic institutions. They should be careful when they instruct people to vote their conscience, it may not work out like they are thinking. It appears to me that the Church lost the birth control battle many years ago, and although I’m not a ‘if you can’t beat them, join them’ type, I believe the time and effort would better spent convincing the current ‘flock’ to comply with the dogma. Rebellion within the Church seems to be the central issue. I realize there are Catholics and Practicing Catholics. I have never seen % based numbers that split the total body, but would find it interesting. Based on my personal experience I suspect the ratio to be below 5% Practicing Catholics.

[/quote]
Not at all relevant.
[/quote]

In theory…you are correct.
In practice…no you’re not.

**don’t assume I’m in favor of the requirement, I’m not.

151

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:<<< In theory…you are correct.
In practice…no you’re not.

**don’t assume I’m in favor of the requirement, I’m not. [/quote]
I just got back from a Right to Life of Michigan rally at my church. A huge portion of our congregation was there (about 1700 members). The total percentage of people there who oppose the requirement, (AND abortion… period) including men and women of all age groups was just about 99.9%. I was working a camera in the very back in a raised booth with a clear view of the whole room. I couldn’t find any hands that didn’t go up, but say 99.9 because I might have missed somebody. Thats’s the difference between a dead powerless non authoritative religion and the actual Spirit filled body of Christ. We are not allowed and would not ever want to hold unbiblical modernistic pagan views in defiance of our leadership and buy extension God Himself.

We actually enforce the precepts of the Word of God. That’s how “the church” is commanded to operate. Nobody gives a flyin fart what the pope or the college of bishops say, even in her own pews. Why should the heathen world care? The only time anybody ever did was when she wielded the power of the sword through hijacking somebody’s civil government. I will however remain forever opposed to any effort by any administration to force private institutions into policies that violate their otherwise not unconstitutional views.

BTW. Before any of my usual assailants try again. There are dozens of other congregations in the metro area who’s practice is equally biblical. No we are not the only faithful church around. Jist hang on a page or two though and this post will have turned into my claim that we are.

152

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:<<< In theory…you are correct.
In practice…no you’re not.

**don’t assume I’m in favor of the requirement, I’m not. [/quote]
I just got back from a Right to Life of Michigan rally at my church. A huge portion of our congregation was there (about 1700 members). The total percentage of people there who oppose the requirement, (AND abortion… period) including men and women of all age groups was just about 99.9%. I was working a camera in the very back in a raised booth with a clear view of the whole room. I couldn’t find any hands that didn’t go up, but say 99.9 because I might have missed somebody. Thats’s the difference between a dead powerless non authoritative religion and the actual Spirit filled body of Christ. We are not allowed and would not ever want to hold unbiblical modernistic pagan views in defiance of our leadership and buy extension God Himself.
[/quote]

Excellent methods and procedures in that survey. Thanks for sharing.

WHAT!!!

154

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:<<< In theory…you are correct.
In practice…no you’re not.

**don’t assume I’m in favor of the requirement, I’m not. [/quote]
I just got back from a Right to Life of Michigan rally at my church. A huge portion of our congregation was there (about 1700 members). The total percentage of people there who oppose the requirement, (AND abortion… period) including men and women of all age groups was just about 99.9%. I was working a camera in the very back in a raised booth with a clear view of the whole room. I couldn’t find any hands that didn’t go up, but say 99.9 because I might have missed somebody. Thats’s the difference between a dead powerless non authoritative religion and the actual Spirit filled body of Christ. We are not allowed and would not ever want to hold unbiblical modernistic pagan views in defiance of our leadership and buy extension God Himself.
[/quote]

Excellent methods and procedures in that survey. Thanks for sharing.

WHAT!!![/quote]I haven’t met a Catholic yet under 60 (and even most over any more) who did not pick and choose what THEY thought was relevant and or binding on them. There are well known Catholics right now who get no rebuke at all (to speak of) to say nothing of actual excommunication for loud public entire lives that are are absolutely reprehensible, even by worldly standards. Do I have to name some pro choice ultra liberal politicians as examples? My point stands.

We don’t allow open public heretics or flagrant sinners to remain in our midst as per 1st Corinthians 5. Such people are publicly (and lovingly) excommunicated. They dishonor Christ and defile and weaken the body. The pews of your church are utterly indistinguishable from the stools in any bar. We have prime specimens right here. No power. The gospel is the power of God unto new life, transformation from conformity to the world to holiness and sanctification in Christ. Somebody be sure n let me know when the RCC displays a flicker of that. It’s a big fat waddling ritualistic religious system with little resemblance to the simplicity and purity of the devotion to Christ that Paul warned the Corinthians not to let the Serpent deceive them from like he did mother Eve. Oops, she was jist a fable. I forgot.

EDIT: Almost forgot. Yes, it was an excellent method. Ask a question (several actually) and get answers. I defy you to deny that that same procedure would not get very different results in every Catholic church in this country and probably even in your own Parish.

155

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

EDIT: Yes, it was an excellent method.[/quote]

Oh, absolutely. That’s how them statisticians do surveys, I’m sure.

156

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Links, please, Senor BlueCollar.[/quote]

For the poll that shows most Catholics support birth control? Here they are:

This one says only 2% of Catholic women rely on natural planning

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/vault/Harris-Interactive-Poll-Research-New-Finds-Different-Religious-Groups-H-2005-10.pdf

Catholic women in the United States were more likely than American women as a whole to use the birth control pill, and only slightly less likely to use a condom

90% of American Catholic women surveyed said they wanted to see access to birth control services at community hospitals.

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/topics/prevention/documents/2004worldview.pdf

157

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
I don’t know why the media is softballing this. Part of the issue is it also forces these institutions to provide plans that cover abortions services. They keep eliminating that little fact. I guess to make us look weird and backwards. God forbid Catholics get a fair shake in the media.[/quote]

The majority of Catholics polled favor the requirement. When only Catholic women are polled the number is over 85%. About the same % with both genders under 30. These include the very people working at the Catholic institutions. They should be careful when they instruct people to vote their conscience, it may not work out like they are thinking. It appears to me that the Church lost the birth control battle many years ago, and although I’m not a ‘if you can’t beat them, join them’ type, I believe the time and effort would better spent convincing the current ‘flock’ to comply with the dogma. Rebellion within the Church seems to be the central issue. I realize there are Catholics and Practicing Catholics. I have never seen % based numbers that split the total body, but would find it interesting. Based on my personal experience I suspect the ratio to be below 5% Practicing Catholics.

[/quote]
Not at all relevant.
[/quote]

In theory…you are correct.
In practice…no you’re not.

**don’t assume I’m in favor of the requirement, I’m not. [/quote]

Well, in practice…the church teaches abortificants and contraception is a sin. That’s all anyone needs to know in the course of discussing this topic…State vs. religious liberty.

158

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Links, please, Senor BlueCollar.[/quote]

For the poll that shows most Catholics support birth control? Here they are:

This one says only 2% of Catholic women rely on natural planning

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/vault/Harris-Interactive-Poll-Research-New-Finds-Different-Religious-Groups-H-2005-10.pdf

Catholic women in the United States were more likely than American women as a whole to use the birth control pill, and only slightly less likely to use a condom

90% of American Catholic women surveyed said they wanted to see access to birth control services at community hospitals.

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/topics/prevention/documents/2004worldview.pdf

[/quote]

None of that is relevant. The point is the government is trying to force a church to pay for something they stand against. It doesn’t matter who is for or against birth control it’s about allowing the government the power to dictate to churches what they will and will not pay for, regardless of the belief of the church.
How often do we talk about not wanting the church involved with government? Well in this case we want the government out of our church. What people, do, think or believe with in the church is the church’s issue to deal with.

If we are going to have separation of church and state, it needs to go both ways. Otherwise then, if we allow the government to strong arm churches, then all bets are off as far as I am concerned.

159

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
I don’t know why the media is softballing this. Part of the issue is it also forces these institutions to provide plans that cover abortions services. They keep eliminating that little fact. I guess to make us look weird and backwards. God forbid Catholics get a fair shake in the media.[/quote]

The majority of Catholics polled favor the requirement. When only Catholic women are polled the number is over 85%. About the same % with both genders under 30. These include the very people working at the Catholic institutions. They should be careful when they instruct people to vote their conscience, it may not work out like they are thinking. It appears to me that the Church lost the birth control battle many years ago, and although I’m not a ‘if you can’t beat them, join them’ type, I believe the time and effort would better spent convincing the current ‘flock’ to comply with the dogma. Rebellion within the Church seems to be the central issue. I realize there are Catholics and Practicing Catholics. I have never seen % based numbers that split the total body, but would find it interesting. Based on my personal experience I suspect the ratio to be below 5% Practicing Catholics.

[/quote]

Birth control is not a dogma of the church and there is no problem with rebellion, it’s a facade made up by the media. It’s a teaching of the church not a dogma, there’s a huge difference between the two.
Second, it doesn’t matter one iota who agrees and does not agree. The church is not a democracy, it’s a teaching of the church and they will not relent, period. People are free to do it on their own dime, but the church cannot be obligated to pay for something they stand against. They flat won’t do it, they’ll drop coverage and pay the fine before they will pay for birth control, abortificants or abortion services.

Obama cannot strong arm the church. It doesn’t answer to him and they don’t give a flying fuck what he thinks. They won’t do it, period. Liking it is not a requirement.

Third, while people may be all for BC, they are firmly against the government trying to tell them or their church what to do. It’s a huge issue and it’s really more to do with the abortificants and abortion services than BC. That I can assure you. BC is one thing, but 100% of Catholics are against abortion.
I say 100% because those who claim to be pro-abortion and catholic are in a state excommunication. “Thou shalt not murder” is a church dogma, BC is not.[/quote]

Thank you clarifying the difference between teachings and dogma.
I’m all about freedom to associate, but am not as certain as you are about the outcome here.
[/quote]

Oh the outcome is certain, either Obama will relent, or healthcare will be dropped. There is no way the church is going to be bullied into this. The church doesn’t answer to obama. From what I am reading, the retreat horn is getting lubed up for duty.

160

[quote]Sloth wrote:<<< Oh, absolutely. That’s how them statisticians do surveys, I’m sure. [/quote]Please tell me why not. I shouldn’t have to say it to you by now, but I’m asking honestly.