[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:<<< Be tolerant of other people, other views. Isn’t that what Christ taught? [/quote]No.
I’ll try n help ya out with the rest of your post later. I doubt it will do any good though.
[/quote]
No, thanx, I figured it out. Jesus was probably the most intolerant religious leader in the history of organized religion.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:<<< Conform or GTFO.[/quote]I jist couldn’t pass this up either, especially after the rest of the anti-American crap this person has hurled upon my screen. There we have it folks. The delusional liberal dream. As I say. A divided country cannot long persist in freedom. Sadly we are moving in the direction this America hating, God hating collectivist wants us to and the college age drones today will likely usher her utopia in for us barring a mighty move of the Spirit of God upon our citizenry which I will continue to believe for.
[/quote]
Wait a minute, I’m anti-American? WTF? Where did you get that from? I am one of the most patriotic people I know. Just because I’m not a right-wing Conservative Christian intent on forcing Conservative Christianity on the entire universe does NOT mean I’m anti-American. And don’t paraphrase Lincoln and then say YOU say that because HE said it first (“A house divided against itself cannot stand,” June 16, 1858) . He was one of the best POTUS’s we’ve had, and he would be ASHAMED of the GOP today. Shit, Jesus would be ashamed of Christianity today. This country is NOT about Christianity and following Christ’s word, it is NOT a theocracy and was never intended to be. It was founded so people could worship how they wanted to (though the Puritans didn’t necessarily follow what they preached, but that’s a different convo). It has been debated that the founding fathers of this country weren’t so purely Christian as everyone likes to think (Hello, Jefferson’s practically rewriting of the Bible into the Jefferson Bible and his version of Christ’s true word. No Christian would take that lightly).
This country is awesome, it always has been and if the gov’t could get their heads out of their asses, it will continue to be so. We have contributed so much to the world and can and will contribute so much more. Are there problems? Hell yeah! Can we fix them? Hell yeah! It just takes work and dedication.
In a country that is about equality, I just don’t understand why work sponsored health plans can’t be equal across the board, no matter if the organization is secular, Catholic, Jewish, or whatever. Offer the same protections for everyone, if those protections go against your religious views, don’t take them, don’t use them. It’s that simple. Be tolerant of other people, other views. Isn’t that what Christ taught? [/quote]
Yes and no. The country was founded on the idea that god gave humans inalienable rights, so that requires belief in a benevolent creator. It was also based on the idea of a moral self governing populous that followed christian values, if not explicitly the religion, voluntarily.
And it isn’t just the idea of using them yourself that’s upsets people. It’s forcing people to pay for things that other people use. Not to mention, as previously noted, to many people, abortion is murder. You cannot expect people to be okay with it in any form from that perspective. “well just don’t do it yourself” is not an adequate response to the murder of innocent humans. Look at it from the other side for just one second.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Yep. Well, guess some folks will have to lose their insurance coverage. And that’ll be the result of this, by the way. [/quote]
That is exactly what will happen. It isn’t the contraceptives as much as the mandate also includes abortion services and previously said abortion medications.
What choice is there? The church, in good conscience, support these abominations on it’s dime. It goes against what we believe. If we accepted it as is, then our words mean nothing. So we have to refuse this.
It is a fact that this health bill is the largest expansion of abortion services on the tax payer dime in the history of the U.S. [/quote]
So, I have a question: My mother, who is anti-Catholic, ended up working for a Catholic-associated hospital. Because of this, she would not have had birth control etc, in her health plan? Why should she, a NON-Catholic not have the advantages of other health plans? Why should she be subject to Catholic dogma when she is NOT Catholic? There are many non-Catholics who work for Catholic-associated businesses. Why should Catholics force their dogma on non-Catholics? Why can’t Protestants force their dogmas (allowing birth control, for example) on Catholics? Besides, the law isn’t saying that Catholics HAVE to take birth control, just to allow the option in their health plans.
[/quote]
She tacitly works for the church. The church cannot provide goods and services it stands against. If your Mama hates Catholics then she needs to find another job. If she doesn’t like the stance she needs to find a place that support her views.
The church doesn’t answer to the government or to non-Catholics. If you work for the church, you can expect that it’s rules will be enforced, just like you would expect any other organization to stand by what it believes in.
Again it’s not just birth-control, the government mandate calls for coverage of abortion services too. You can bet your sweet ass that every Catholic organization will rather close it’s doors than to provide murder for hire.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:<<< Be tolerant of other people, other views. Isn’t that what Christ taught? [/quote]No.
I’ll try n help ya out with the rest of your post later. I doubt it will do any good though.
[/quote]
No, thanx, I figured it out. Jesus was probably the most intolerant religious leader in the history of organized religion. [/quote]
Oh? Based on what, do you say this garbage?
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
In a country that is about equality,[/quote] It isn’t, besides the most basic rights. Heck, all you get is a right to pursue happiness. Not have it provided.[quote]I just don’t understand why work sponsored health plans can’t be equal across the board[/quote] Because they’re work-sponsored. You know, by the place of work one chose to work at [quote]no matter if the organization is secular, Catholic, Jewish, or whatever. Offer the same protections for everyone,[/quote] How many insurance policies are you sponsoring, for anyone? In any event, they do offer the same protections for everyone working for a Catholic hospital. Neither Catholic, Jew, or atheist gets contraception covered. See, equality [quote]if those protections go against your religious views, don’t take them, don’t use them.[/quote] If those religious view go against your views, don’t take the job and then turn around and stab the employer in the back[quote] It’s that simple. Be tolerant of other people, other views. Isn’t that what Christ taught? [/quote]
Your idea of tolerance is conformity and equal outcomes. And no, that isn’t what Christ taught.
[/quote]
No, my idea of equality is offering the same to everybody, what you choose to do with it is up to you. In that one specific way, yes, it’s about conformity, it’s about conforming to the law. Everyone conforms to something, society, law, family tradition, religious doctrine. Life is about conforming; the weird, abnormal, individual, is usually cast out, cast off, derided. History has shown this. What’s wrong with asking Catholic institutions to conform to the law and offer contraception in their health plans? It’s not like the law is making Catholics TAKE contraception, it’s just giving the non-Catholics the same options as other people employed by non-Catholic businesses. We’re not asking you to re-write Catholic dogma, just to offer the same things that others are offered. [/quote]
Okay, as soon as I get liberals to start helping pay for my right to bare arms. I think they should be forced to help pay for my bullets and guns. They can contribute to my right to defend myself. They don’t have to use the service themselves if they don’t want to though.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
In a country that is about equality,[/quote] It isn’t, besides the most basic rights. Heck, all you get is a right to pursue happiness. Not have it provided.[quote]I just don’t understand why work sponsored health plans can’t be equal across the board[/quote] Because they’re work-sponsored. You know, by the place of work one chose to work at [quote]no matter if the organization is secular, Catholic, Jewish, or whatever. Offer the same protections for everyone,[/quote] How many insurance policies are you sponsoring, for anyone? In any event, they do offer the same protections for everyone working for a Catholic hospital. Neither Catholic, Jew, or atheist gets contraception covered. See, equality [quote]if those protections go against your religious views, don’t take them, don’t use them.[/quote] If those religious view go against your views, don’t take the job and then turn around and stab the employer in the back[quote] It’s that simple. Be tolerant of other people, other views. Isn’t that what Christ taught? [/quote]
Your idea of tolerance is conformity and equal outcomes. And no, that isn’t what Christ taught.
[/quote]
No, my idea of equality is offering the same to everybody, what you choose to do with it is up to you. In that one specific way, yes, it’s about conformity, it’s about conforming to the law. Everyone conforms to something, society, law, family tradition, religious doctrine. Life is about conforming; the weird, abnormal, individual, is usually cast out, cast off, derided. History has shown this. What’s wrong with asking Catholic institutions to conform to the law and offer contraception in their health plans? It’s not like the law is making Catholics TAKE contraception, it’s just giving the non-Catholics the same options as other people employed by non-Catholic businesses. We’re not asking you to re-write Catholic dogma, just to offer the same things that others are offered. [/quote]
It’s violation of the first amendment first, the law doesn’t say you have to work for a Catholic organization. If you don’t like to rules then fuck off and leave. The church isn’t stopping YOU from obtaining anything, IT will not pay for it, period. Why is that so hard to understand? To provide the service it has to be paid for.
Not wanting to pay for things you stand against really isn’t that hard a concept to grasp is it?
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
No, my idea of equality is offering the same to everybody, what you choose to do with it is up to you. [/quote]
They do offer the same to everybody. Catholics, Jews, and atheists don’t get contraception covered.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
What’s wrong with asking Catholic institutions to conform to the law and offer contraception in their health plans?[/quote] Because it’s their health plans…Just how many health plans are you providing, by the way? Are YOU covering ANYTHING for ANYONE else? Or, are you a backseat driver?
It’s making them provide them. Same guilt. And no, I don’t care if you disagree. Again, how many hospitals, soup kitchens, shelters, and orphanages are YOU running while providing employees ANY amount of coverage?
Er, yes, you are asking us to re-write Catholic dogma. We…aren’t…going…to…comply. You will have to close our hospitals and other institutions. Fine us and jail us. And we still will not comply. The Bishops have spoken, victory is already ours.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
In a country that is about equality,[/quote] It isn’t, besides the most basic rights. Heck, all you get is a right to pursue happiness. Not have it provided.[quote]I just don’t understand why work sponsored health plans can’t be equal across the board[/quote] Because they’re work-sponsored. You know, by the place of work one chose to work at [quote]no matter if the organization is secular, Catholic, Jewish, or whatever. Offer the same protections for everyone,[/quote] How many insurance policies are you sponsoring, for anyone? In any event, they do offer the same protections for everyone working for a Catholic hospital. Neither Catholic, Jew, or atheist gets contraception covered. See, equality [quote]if those protections go against your religious views, don’t take them, don’t use them.[/quote] If those religious view go against your views, don’t take the job and then turn around and stab the employer in the back[quote] It’s that simple. Be tolerant of other people, other views. Isn’t that what Christ taught? [/quote]
Your idea of tolerance is conformity and equal outcomes. And no, that isn’t what Christ taught.
[/quote]
No, my idea of equality is offering the same to everybody, what you choose to do with it is up to you. In that one specific way, yes, it’s about conformity, it’s about conforming to the law. Everyone conforms to something, society, law, family tradition, religious doctrine. Life is about conforming; the weird, abnormal, individual, is usually cast out, cast off, derided. History has shown this. What’s wrong with asking Catholic institutions to conform to the law and offer contraception in their health plans? It’s not like the law is making Catholics TAKE contraception, it’s just giving the non-Catholics the same options as other people employed by non-Catholic businesses. We’re not asking you to re-write Catholic dogma, just to offer the same things that others are offered. [/quote]
Okay, as soon as I get liberals to start helping pay for my right to bare arms. I think they should be forced to help pay for my bullets and guns. They can contribute to my right to defend myself. They don’t have to use the service themselves if they don’t want to though.
[/quote]
Oh Snap! But, but, but, I only favor things that I want! Good post DD
Here’s a tip for future reference. Just stop right[quote]Grneyes wrote:<<< No, thanx, >>>[/quote]there if you really don’t want a response. Because when you then go on to say something ignorant like [quote]Grneyes wrote:<<<I figured it out. Jesus was probably the most intolerant religious leader in the history of organized religion. [/quote], people will respond anyway. I have a couple things to do and then legs though. Later.
I promise. If you had just said “No thanx” I wouldn’t have responded.
EDIT: Nevermind
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:<<< Be tolerant of other people, other views. Isn’t that what Christ taught? [/quote]No.
I’ll try n help ya out with the rest of your post later. I doubt it will do any good though.
[/quote]
No, thanx, I figured it out. Jesus was probably the most intolerant religious leader in the history of organized religion. [/quote]
Oh? Based on what, do you say this garbage?[/quote]
Based on the teachings of Saint Tirib, no doubt. When are the rest of you going to stop letting him shit all over your religion? He does it better than any atheist ever could.
I could wipe my ass with the pages of the New Testament and still do less damage than what Tirib manages on a daily basis in these very forums.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:<<< Be tolerant of other people, other views. Isn’t that what Christ taught? [/quote]No.
I’ll try n help ya out with the rest of your post later. I doubt it will do any good though.
[/quote]
No, thanx, I figured it out. Jesus was probably the most intolerant religious leader in the history of organized religion. [/quote]
Oh? Based on what, do you say this garbage?[/quote]
Based on the teachings of Saint Tirib, no doubt. When are the rest of you going to stop letting him shit all over your religion? He does it better than any atheist ever could.
I could wipe my ass with the pages of the New Testament and still do less damage than what Tirib manages on a daily basis in these very forums.[/quote]Is that so LOL!!! “The teachings of Saint Tirib” ARE protestant Christianity and were once the majority view in this very nation right down to predestination and election. Ya know who knows this? Sloth knows it. Oh yes he does and he’s an honest man. That’s why you will never see him rebut this post. Pat’s a clueless heathen. Too bad he can’t hear me call him that… again, because he courageously put me on ignore after I shoved his face in his own lies. My cat shows forth more fruit of the Spirit.
Men were martyred for refusing to recant the exact Gospel I preach. They chose burning alive rather than betraying the truths I proclaim here on a daily basis. The limp wristed hippified fairy passed off in these post modern temples of baal as the Holy exalted Son of the most high God, seated at the right hand of the Father and creator of the universe, is a damnable idol. An abominable fabrication contrived in the hearts of false prophets for false sheep with itching ears.
Come on Mak. Show these dear people your immense bible skills and demonstrate where I’ve “shit all over (their) religion”. Naaah. You won’t even try. You’ll just scamper away back into your weeds again and shoot some more of your harmless spitballs. That’s ok dude. I’m still yer buddy and I still like you. Not that you care, but sincerely. That may not be sayin very much I guess because I like everybody here.
He commands me to love you which is actually pretty easy if I just stay in His presence. He does it through me. But He has been so exceedingly gracious in also allowing me to like just about everybody here as well. Even people I beat on like you and Pat. That is so counter intuitive to you ain’t it?
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:<<< Be tolerant of other people, other views. Isn’t that what Christ taught? [/quote]No.
I’ll try n help ya out with the rest of your post later. I doubt it will do any good though.
[/quote]
No, thanx, I figured it out. Jesus was probably the most intolerant religious leader in the history of organized religion. [/quote]
Oh? Based on what, do you say this garbage?[/quote]
Based on the teachings of Saint Tirib, no doubt. When are the rest of you going to stop letting him shit all over your religion? He does it better than any atheist ever could.
I could wipe my ass with the pages of the New Testament and still do less damage than what Tirib manages on a daily basis in these very forums.[/quote]
I stopped reading his posts so I am afraid I am in the dark, but based on past experience, I begrudgingly admit you are right.
This is one reason I don’t toss around scripture verses willy-nilly without a firm basis of respect established from the get go. Then there is the whole “scripture says ________.” when it doesn’t.
Nobody is in control of anyone here. If I had to go around arguing and correcting misinformation about Christianity, the Bible or whatnot that’s all I would be doing.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:<<< Be tolerant of other people, other views. Isn’t that what Christ taught? [/quote]No.
I’ll try n help ya out with the rest of your post later. I doubt it will do any good though.
[/quote]
No, thanx, I figured it out. Jesus was probably the most intolerant religious leader in the history of organized religion. [/quote]
Oh? Based on what, do you say this garbage?[/quote]
Based on the teachings of Saint Tirib, no doubt. When are the rest of you going to stop letting him shit all over your religion? He does it better than any atheist ever could.
I could wipe my ass with the pages of the New Testament and still do less damage than what Tirib manages on a daily basis in these very forums.[/quote]
I stopped reading his posts so I am afraid I am in the dark, but based on past experience, I begrudgingly admit you are right.
This is one reason I don’t toss around scripture verses willy-nilly without a firm basis of respect established from the get go. Then there is the whole “scripture says ________.” when it doesn’t.
Nobody is in control of anyone here. If I had to go around arguing and correcting misinformation about Christianity, the Bible or whatnot that’s all I would be doing. [/quote]
You’re at a stage where people are going to associate his views with yours due to your shared belief in Jesus and the Christian God.
You can hate our dogma all day long, wish we’d do as you pleas, etc. The reality is that we won’t. Period. It’s not going to happen. So, start preparing for the potential consequences
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...ss=rss_opinions
"…In a variety of international settings, I have seen religious groups, with support from the U.S. government, engaged in AIDS treatment, fistula repair, malaria control, and the promotion of child and maternal health. Ram Cnaan of the University of Pennsylvania has documented the domestic role of ?sacred places that serve civic purposes? ? homeless shelters, food banks, health care, welfare-to-work, prisoner re-entry programs. Cnaan estimates the ?replacement value? ? the cost to government agencies of assuming these roles ? to be about $140,000 each year for the typical community-serving religious institution.
Take the case of one city: Philadelphia. There are about 2,000 such faith-based institutions, many of them Catholic. Replacing them would require about a quarter of a billion dollars every year. Catholic Social Services helps more than 250,000 people a year in soup kitchens, shelters and centers for the disabled. Its Community-Based Services division runs adoption and foster-care programs, staffs senior community centers and supports immigration services. The Catholic Nutritional Development Services, working in partnership with public agencies, delivers nearly 10 million meals a year ? accounting for about half of all meals delivered to poor children in Philadelphia in the summer months when school is out.
Much of this good work ? and similar work across the country ? is now threatened. If federal policies make it impossible for religious nonprofits and hospitals to work in conjunction with federal, state and local agencies in providing social services, millions of poor and vulnerable Americans ? Catholic and non-Catholic, religious and nonreligious ? would suffer. The task of building alternatives would cost hundreds of billions of dollars ? and then lack the distinctive human touch provided by religious groups…"
Get ready to roll your sleeves up folks. Grab your checkbooks and wallets. Clear you schedules.
[quote]Makavali wrote:<<< You’re at a stage where people are going to associate his views with yours due to your shared belief in Jesus and the Christian God.[/quote]I will continue to make certain that does not happen so you need not worry yer widdoo noggin there makky boy. LOL!!! You are a blast man LOL!!! He’s lookin out for the Catholics now LOL!!!
Don’t want to rain on the Romney parade but…
“As it now turns out, back in 2005 when Mitt Romney was governor of Massachusetts, he forced religious institutions including Catholic hospitals to dispense the so-called ‘morning after pill.’”
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I’m no fan of the Catholic church, and I make no secret of that.
Stop acting like a clown old man, it’s not becoming of someone your age.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I’m no fan of the Catholic church, and I make no secret of that.
Stop acting like a clown old man, it’s not becoming of someone your age.[/quote]Old? Clown? I almost heard a drizzle of affection leak through there Mak. Maybe you don’t hate me as much as I thought =]
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:<<< Be tolerant of other people, other views. Isn’t that what Christ taught? [/quote]No.
I’ll try n help ya out with the rest of your post later. I doubt it will do any good though.
[/quote]
No, thanx, I figured it out. Jesus was probably the most intolerant religious leader in the history of organized religion. [/quote]
Oh? Based on what, do you say this garbage?[/quote]
Based on the teachings of Saint Tirib, no doubt. When are the rest of you going to stop letting him shit all over your religion? He does it better than any atheist ever could.
I could wipe my ass with the pages of the New Testament and still do less damage than what Tirib manages on a daily basis in these very forums.[/quote]
I stopped reading his posts so I am afraid I am in the dark, but based on past experience, I begrudgingly admit you are right.
This is one reason I don’t toss around scripture verses willy-nilly without a firm basis of respect established from the get go. Then there is the whole “scripture says ________.” when it doesn’t.
Nobody is in control of anyone here. If I had to go around arguing and correcting misinformation about Christianity, the Bible or whatnot that’s all I would be doing. [/quote]
You’re at a stage where people are going to associate his views with yours due to your shared belief in Jesus and the Christian God.[/quote]
Yeah, I know.
I really won’t be able to help what people associate. I get the fact that we are lumped by non-believers in one lump. I see it all the time, the whole “If your a Christian you surely must believe in Creationism, or think evolution is bunk.”
People’s stereotypes are what they are. People will just have to read what I write and let that stand for me.
Tirib and I have gone back and forth and round and round. I just don’t care to do it anymore. It’s time consuming, cluttering to the forum and what usually happens, is that it runs everybody else off and it’s just us ripping on each other. Not to say that kind of intensity and passion for one’s beliefs isn’t valuable to express and defend at the core levels, but I have run my course with it.
The fact is, I probably agree with you more than tirib. Even though he is Christian, I pretty much disagree with everything his version of faith prescribes. Besides, according to their interpretation of scripture, we both have been foreordained to burn in eternal hell fire with a red dude complete with spiked tail poking us with a pitch fork. I am considered the wrong kind of Christian.
I don’t have to tell you that of course I don’t believe that and those such tenets are not anywhere in the scriptures…
That being said you can isolate phrases from the bible and get it to say anything you want it to. That’s why I always hammer away at context. Who, what, why, when, and where all matter when you read the scripture. “The bible says ______” Uh, no it doesn’t.
I do stand pat against fundamentalism and your right in that it does way more harm then it ever did good. I don’t know how some 1800 years after the fact some charismatic kook manages to convince people that everybody had it wrong until he came around to give people the right interpretation, and then all the while violating the very scripture they claim to know like no one else ever has.
You don’t need to be a weirdo or a fundamentalist kook to have faith, it’s for all people to take or leave.